Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin): Effect on Lab Tests

[Wilson7]

I did but I don't remember the values specifically. HDL was in the 35 - 40 range, total T was in low 400's with the HCG. Didn't check free or SHBG. Hb was in the 18.0 - 18.5 range and that was way too high, HCT 55%. AST/ALT 80 - 120 range, GGT normal all other liver function normal. CK was in the 2000 - 2500 range, that was always my guide to AST/ALT. If I took a week off CK fell below 1000 and AST/ALT were cut in half so most of that elevation was from muscle damage. I don't where my lab archives are, if I find them I can post more data. Overall pretty much what Nelson described above. For certain, just 200 mg every two weeks was plenty. I was about 250 at 10% BF (underwater weigh), you can do alot with a pretty small dose if diet and training are spot on. I was a skinny fat ectomorph most of my younger life, but I was also hypogonadal and didn't know it. Once I was treated that changed. Had liver US and echo's done, mild concentric hypertrophy but within normal limits and docs felt it was normal given the resistance exercise. Liver US normal.

 

[benaoao]

You never tested E2 / DHT?

 

[Wilson7]

If I recall they were both normal/low normal. E1 was higher on nandrolone, not E2.

 

[DS3]

I was on 200 mg of Deca every two weeks and 350 IU HCG twice a week for 10 years (1995 to 2005). Never had an issue with either one, but over time Hb and HCT did become a problem as did iron levels. Could have been resolved with blood donations but we didn't have our heads wrapped around that concept until more recently.

What made you choose Deca as a base?

 

[Gman86]

I did but I don't remember the values specifically. HDL was in the 35 - 40 range, total T was in low 400's with the HCG. Didn't check free or SHBG. Hb was in the 18.0 - 18.5 range and that was way too high, HCT 55%. AST/ALT 80 - 120 range, GGT normal all other liver function normal. CK was in the 2000 - 2500 range, that was always my guide to AST/ALT. If I took a week off CK fell below 1000 and AST/ALT were cut in half so most of that elevation was from muscle damage. I don't where my lab archives are, if I find them I can post more data. Overall pretty much what Nelson described above. For certain, just 200 mg every two weeks was plenty. I was about 250 at 10% BF (underwater weigh), you can do alot with a pretty small dose if diet and training are spot on. I was a skinny fat ectomorph most of my younger life, but I was also hypogonadal and didn't know it. Once I was treated that changed. Had liver US and echo's done, mild concentric hypertrophy but within normal limits and docs felt it was normal given the resistance exercise. Liver US normal.

Do you know if the total T test was the sensitive version or not?

 

[DS3]

Do you know if the total T test was the sensitive version or not?

LC/MS Assay is what it would need to be.

 

[Wilson7]

Total T was not LC/MS, this was 15 - 25 yrs ago. DS3 was having issues with gyno with T so I switched to N with enough HCG to maintain testicular mass and libido.

 

[Gman86]

Total T was not LC/MS, this was 15 - 25 yrs ago. DS3 was having issues with gyno with T so I switched to N with enough HCG to maintain testicular mass and libido.

So was your total T tested at trough on day 14 right before your injection? Just surprised that you felt fine with a total T of 400. But if this was your level at trough, it makes sense.

 

[Wilson7]

I don't remember when I checked my T relative to the inj of N I know I tested several times over the 2 weeks, without the HCG my total T fell to about 100. I ran some of the assays myself, we used Nichols RIA I 125 for total T. I was doing rat work in the lab for grad school, ran IGF-I as well. The T assay we used at the time did not cross react with N very much at all. The numbers were accurate, I was very anal about CVs and my standards and controls. Even the labs I had run did not pick up the N, seems like the ones now that are not LC/MS do.

 

[Wilson7]

Once this COVID stuff settles down, will see how the LC/MS compares to the standard assay for T in someone using N.

 

[benaoao]

Since HCG has biphasic kinetics it’s not shocking to me that 350iu injections yielded T in the 400s. At least from my experience with 500iu’s twice weekly leading to T in the 600s. Especially with Deca lowering SHBG, which increases Testosterone clearance. If anything infrequent injections may mitigate SHBG reduction.

 

[DS3]

Since HCG has biphasic kinetics it’s not shocking to me that 350iu injections yielded T in the 400s. At least from my experience with 500iu’s twice weekly leading to T in the 600s. Especially with Deca lowering SHBG, which increases Testosterone clearance. If anything infrequent injections may mitigate SHBG reduction.

This question is simply coming from a state of not knowing, but what role does HCG’s characteristic of possessing biphasic kinetics have to do with TT that the proposed dosage of 350 IUs would yield?

 

[benaoao]

Me mentioning biphasic kinetics is mostly because @Gman86 mentioned testing TT at a trough. From what’s seen below (Fig.2), response to E3.5D HCG injections seems fairly predictable and TT levels should be stable throughout till the next injection is given

HCG 0-6000iu study

 

[DS3]

Me mentioning biphasic kinetics is mostly because @Gman86 mentioned testing TT at a trough. From what’s seen below (Fig.2), response to E3.5D HCG injections seems fairly predictable and TT levels should be stable throughout till the next injection is given

HCG 0-6000iu study

Great link. Thanks for posting.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Hey Nelson, in your 10 years of experience with Nandrolone did you suffer with depression or libido/ed issues?

My libido was high back in those days (but I was also younger). Depression only hit me when I was afraid I was going to die of HIV and when I lost a partner and a few friends.
Looking back I must admit that I was a lot more driven but also more inpatient and a little more assertive than people thought was necessary. But it is hard to distinguish what was related to nandrolone and what was linked to my sense of urgency due to my conditions.

Luckily, my hematocrit stabilized at 50 after 2 therapeutic phlebotomies. But my HDL remained lower than normal at 32. My blood pressure was also moderately high at 135/85, so I took losartan 25 mg per day. I was 10 pounds heavier than now and also stronger at the gym.

The low HDL issues made me stop after a while. I only use nandrolone when I rarely have joint aches that are not resolved after a few days on naproxen. But I only use it for 2-4 weeks max once per week at 200 mg/week plus 150 mg testosterone cypionate.

Watch your hematocrit and HDL, guys!

 

[Gman86]

My libido was high back in those days (but I was also younger). Depression only hit me when I was afraid I was going to die of HIV and when I lost a partner and a few friends.
Looking back I must admit that I was a lot more driven but also more inpatient and a little more assertive than people thought was necessary. But it is hard to distinguish what was related to nandrolone and what was linked to my sense of urgency due to my conditions.

Luckily, my hematocrit stabilized at 50 after 2 therapeutic phlebotomies. But my HDL remained lower than normal at 32. My blood pressure was also moderately high at 135/85, so I took losartan 25 mg per day. I was 10 pounds heavier than now and also stronger at the gym.

The low HDL issues made me stop after a while. I only use nandrolone when I rarely have joint aches that are not resolved after a few days on naproxen. But I only use it for 2-4 weeks max once per week at 200 mg/week plus 150 mg testosterone cypionate.

Watch your hematocrit and HDL, guys!

When you used nandrolone for the 10 years, Were you just using 200mg of nandrolone per week, nothing else as far as hormones go? Just wondering, because wouldn’t your E2 have been too low the whole 10 years if you were on nandrolone by itself?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

When you used nandrolone for the 10 years, Were you just using 200mg of nandrolone per week, nothing else as far as hormones go? Just wondering, because wouldn’t your E2 have been too low the whole 10 years if you were on nandrolone by itself?

I have never said I used it by itself. We always used it with testosterone.

I never measured my estradiol back then.

I did measure estradiol on oxandrolone plus TRT and it was undetectable (oxandrolone is a DHT analog and DHT can decrease estradiol)

 

[Gman86]

I have never said I used it by itself. We always used it with testosterone.

I never measured my estradiol back then.

I did measure estradiol on oxandrolone plus TRT and it was undetectable (oxandrolone is a DHT analog and DHT can decrease estradiol)

Do you mind sharing what dose of Oxandrolone crashed your E2?

Do you mind also sharing what your doses of nandrolone and test were when u used them both for that 10 year period?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Oxandrolone was approved in the mid 90's as Oxandrin (oxandrolone) and indicated as adjunctive therapy to promote weight gain after weight loss following extensive surgery, chronic infections, or severe trauma, and in some patients who without definite pathophysiologic reasons fail to gain or to maintain normal weight, to offset the protein catabolism associated with prolonged administration of corticosteroids, and for the relief of the bone pain frequently accompanying osteoporosis.

We used 20 mg per day (men). 5-10 mg per day (women). We used it along with 100-200 mg per week of testosterone cypionate or enanthate.

It decreases HDL even more so than nandrolone, so I never used it for over a month. It can also decrease estradiol and cause joint aches.

Nandrolone typical dose was 200 mg every two weeks plus 200mg of T cypionate or enanthate every two weeks. Back then we did not know that lower and more frequent doses would be better. We also did not know much about hCG.

I usually don't talk much about those days, as you guys know.

Here are a few Google Scholar references of my work back then.

Nelson Vergel

Author- Founder, PoWerUSA.org, DiscountedLabs.com and ExcelMale.com - Cited by 92 - Endocrinology - HRT - Exercise Science - Nutrition Science - HIV research

scholar.google.com

 

[Vince]

100 mg of nandrolone plus 100 mg of testosterone per week for years while also monitoring hematocrit and HDL as main variables.

Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin) Studies in Humans

A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial of Nandrolone Decanoate in Human Immunodeficiency Virus-Infected Men with Mild to Moderate Weight Loss with Recombinant Human Growth Hormone as Active Reference Treatment . by Storer, Thomas W; Woodhouse, Linda J; Sattler, Fred; See more... The Journal...

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