New Protocol, Elevated RHR/Poor Sleep/Eye Floaters. Abort or Stay the Course?

[eyeheartny]

@eyeheartny

I think you shoudl try to find a spot where you can relax and wait on those labs to come in. Otherwise you're just stabbing the dark. Sleep disruption is huge for me, too. Don't overlook that most of the guys on this forum have a generalized anxiety type disorder that they suffer with, whether it's diagnosed, or even acknowledged by them. They feel this and feel that and immediately try to blow it up. Don't discount the power of the mind.

I understand what you’re saying. At the same time, I’ve done my work in therapy and know the difference between what’s in my head and what’s quantifiable. TRT has not been an area that has made me anxious in the past, and I’ve been on for the better part of a decade. The issues that drove me to adjust my protocol (which was test only, so not even much of a protocol) were not because of perceived issues or stuff that was anxiety driven. Also, I have had major personal health issues that are actually anxiety producing, including cancer.

All this is to say that I know my body pretty well and know what anxiety is like when it’s justified/real and when it’s in my head. Whatever is going on right now is not in my head. While I readily acknowledge that I am anxious right now, it’s because something is way off, and I am thoroughly unsettled by it. My sleep tracking data bears this out—in multiple domains my recovery status is getting worse by the day, with sleep quality and quantity at a multi-month low point in addition to much poorer HRV (an objective measure that tracks well with my subjective experience), elevated RHR, etc. I’m feeling horrible and am seeing objective data that supports this. I have not been an anxious person around my TRT and have much to enjoy around the holidays right now. Other than feeling physically awful, life is good. But the way I’m feeling is absolutely limiting that enjoyment as I’m feeling miserable.

The other key question is what the bloodwork may or may not show. If there's something about how nandrolone affects my mineralocorticoid receptors and increases cortisol and aldosterone, the labs I just ordered won't show that as I didn't do a 24-hour saliva test or an ACTH challenge test. I did a CBC, CMP, estradiol sensitive, TT/FT, and SHBG. Unless there's something grossly off there, my bloodwork may not show anything that accounts for what I'm feeling.

So my genuine question is this—what would you do if you were in my shoes? Stay on a protocol that’s having you feel like you might have a heart attack and getting no good sleep? I’m asking for real as I am just lost right now.

 

[DS3]

I understand what you’re saying. At the same time, I’ve done my work in therapy and know the difference between what’s in my head and what’s quantifiable. TRT has not been an area that has made me anxious in the past, and I’ve been on for the better part of a decade. The issues that drove me to adjust my protocol (which was test only, so not even much of a protocol) were not because of perceived issues or stuff that was anxiety driven. Also, I have had major personal health issues that are actually anxiety producing, including cancer.

All this is to say that I know my body pretty well and know what anxiety is like when it’s justified/real and when it’s in my head. Whatever is going on right now is not in my head. While I readily acknowledge that I am anxious right now, it’s because something is way off, and I am thoroughly unsettled by it. My sleep tracking data bears this out—in multiple domains my recovery status is getting worse by the day, with sleep quality and quantity at a multi-month low point in addition to much poorer HRV (an objective measure that tracks well with my subjective experience), elevated RHR, etc. I’m feeling horrible and am seeing objective data that supports this. I have not been an anxious person around my TRT and have much to enjoy around the holidays right now. Other than feeling physically awful, life is good. But the way I’m feeling is absolutely limiting that enjoyment as I’m feeling miserable.

The other key question is what the bloodwork may or may not show. If there's something about how nandrolone affects my mineralocorticoid receptors and increases cortisol and aldosterone, the labs I just ordered won't show that as I didn't do a 24-hour saliva test or an ACTH challenge test. I did a CBC, CMP, estradiol sensitive, TT/FT, and SHBG. Unless there's something grossly off there, my bloodwork may not show anything that accounts for what I'm feeling.

So my genuine question is this—what would you do if you were in my shoes? Stay on a protocol that’s having you feel like you might have a heart attack and getting no good sleep? I’m asking for real as I am just lost right now.

Very sorry you feel the way you do. That really sucks. My honest answer is that things with you haven't been stable since you changed from Prop in October. A couple weeks of Cypionate following the prop change, then proceeded by a change in late December to Enanthate. These esters take a while to build in your system and as you have switched back and forth, your system has not been able to get acclimated begin forming a new 'homeostasis' around the ester you are taking. This could partly account for the negative side effects you are experiencing. However, if I were in your position right now waiting for an answer to help me, I'd jump ship on the nandrolone. That would ultimately be my decision. Drop the nandrolone and allow my body to adjust to the TE.

 

[Gman86]

Very sorry you feel the way you do. That really sucks. My honest answer is that things with you haven't been stable since you changed from Prop in October. A couple weeks of Cypionate following the prop change, then proceeded by a change in late December to Enanthate. These esters take a while to build in your system and as you have switched back and forth, your system has not been able to get acclimated begin forming a new 'homeostasis' around the ester you are taking. This could partly account for the negative side effects you are experiencing. However, if I were in your position right now waiting for an answer to help me, I'd jump ship on the nandrolone. That would ultimately be my decision. Drop the nandrolone and allow my body to adjust to the TE.

Id do the same. Get labs before dropping the nandrolone, but then I would definitely do process of elimination. Would drop the nandrolone, and go back on test only with pharma brand, and up your dose back to around 140mg/ week

 

[eyeheartny]

Id do the same. Get labs before dropping the nandrolone, but then I would definitely do process of elimination. Would drop the nandrolone, and go back on test only with pharma brand, and up your dose back to around 140mg/ week

Labs were drawn this afternoon so that’s good. Should have CBC and CMP soon so I’ll know where hematocrit and hemoglobin are along with other basic values and then will wait on TT/FT, SHBG, and E2. I’ll be calling Defy before they close tomorrow to see if the CBC and CMP are in. Tonight is a shot night so I’ll go back to test only.

 

[Novaman]

I was dealing with the same issues minus the floaters. I had elevated RHR, awareness of my heart beat, and horrible sleep. I tried all sorts of things and eventually just gave up and went off TRT cold turkey. It has now been 33 days. All my issues went away

correction- it has been 41 days

 

[eyeheartny]

I was dealing with the same issues minus the floaters. I had elevated RHR, awareness of my heart beat, and horrible sleep. I tried all sorts of things and eventually just gave up and went off TRT cold turkey. It has now been 33 days. All my issues went away

How long had you been on TRT before this? What other changes did you make? What type of testosterone were you on (ester? compounded or pharma?)? Were those side effects things you dealt with the whole time on TRT or did they come on after a protocol change? How is your libido, erection quality, etc?

 

[Novaman]

How long had you been on TRT before this? What other changes did you make? What type of testosterone were you on (ester? compounded or pharma?)? Were those side effects things you dealt with the whole time on TRT or did they come on after a protocol change? How is your libido, erection quality, etc?

I was on TRT for nearly 5 years. Started at 200 mg Test Cyp a week split in 2 doses, 500 IU HCG 2x a week and 1 mg of Anastrozole a week. I started noticing issues with the RHR and awareness of my heart beat and sleep a few months in but it wasn't that bad. It became a bigger issue after a year or two. I started adjusting my dosages downward. Dropped the Test to 180 mg, then 160 mg, then 140 mg, Adjusted the HCG downward, also adjusted the AI down, But the symptoms worsened despite the changes I made. Eventually the sleep was so bad I stopped for 3 months before giving things another try. This time I tried only Test Cyp at 120 mg a week, no HCG, no AI, but my symptoms returned. I Then switched to Defy and the doc had me try some ancillary meds (lyothyronine and DHEA) but they made me feel horrible. I gave one last try and decided to micro dose the Test at 60 mg a week but still had issues. My last straw was 2 episodes where I felt like I was going to collapse. I was literally concentrating on just being able to stand erect. And I was SO tired due to poor sleep. So I quit.

Like I said, it has been 33 days so I still have a ways to go. I am just coming out of the worst of it (I hope) which I understand is usually around weeks 3-4. My erection quality is still good, but honestly was never an issue anyways. My libido though was near zero although I was able to have sex with my wife. I am starting to notice an uptick these past few days though. I understand it might take a while for me to feel normal again- it could be a good 3-6 months. But at least my heart doesn't beat fast anymore, and I can sleep better, and I no longer have any episodes where I feel like I am going to collapse

 

[eyeheartny]

I was on TRT for nearly 5 years. Started at 200 mg Test Cyp a week split in 2 doses, 500 IU HCG 2x a week and 1 mg of Anastrozole a week. I started noticing issues with the RHR and awareness of my heart beat and sleep a few months in but it wasn't that bad. It became a bigger issue after a year or two. I started adjusting my dosages downward. Dropped the Test to 180 mg, then 160 mg, then 140 mg, Adjusted the HCG downward, also adjusted the AI down, But the symptoms worsened despite the changes I made. Eventually the sleep was so bad I stopped for 3 months before giving things another try. This time I tried only Test Cyp at 120 mg a week, no HCG, no AI, but my symptoms returned. I Then switched to Defy and the doc had me try some ancillary meds (lyothyronine and DHEA) but they made me feel horrible. I gave one last try and decided to micro dose the Test at 60 mg a week but still had issues. My last straw was 2 episodes where I felt like I was going to collapse. I was literally concentrating on just being able to stand erect. And I was SO tired due to poor sleep. So I quit.

Like I said, it has been 33 days so I still have a ways to go. I am just coming out of the worst of it (I hope) which I understand is usually around weeks 3-4. My erection quality is still good, but honestly was never an issue anyways. My libido though was near zero although I was able to have sex with my wife. I am starting to notice an uptick these past few days though. I understand it might take a while for me to feel normal again- it could be a good 3-6 months. But at least my heart doesn't beat fast anymore, and I can sleep better, and I no longer have any episodes where I feel like I am going to collapse

What did your TT, FT, E2, SHBG numbers look like during these periods where you felt so bad? I'm wondering if there is something to be gleaned from your FT:E2 ratio, or your total E2 level being low, or low SHBG, etc. How did your hematocrit and hemoglobin look during the worst phases for you? Did you ever do a cortisol test? I'm also curious because 1mg of Arimidex each week is a LOT, so I wonder if your E2 was lower than it needed to be for a long time if you were being overprescribed aromatase inhibitors.

Were you always on compounded testosterone? Or did you ever inject "big pharma" test from Pfizer, Watson, etc?

I'm very curious in my case whether the culprit may be excess free T, or whether my estradiol is elevated, lower than it should be, etc. My SHBG was already on the low side and I wonder whether the nandrolone may exacerbate that in some capacity. I also know that years ago, I self-prescribed some low-dose exemestane to try lowering my E2 to see if it helped with water retention, my sleep was disastrously bad for quite a while. Took 6 months or so to return to normal. I think I dropped below whatever threshold worked for me and I suffered for it, plus it didn't help with water retention. So I am going to be curious to see where my E2 is as well when I get bloodwork.

 

[eyeheartny]

CBC is back along with TT test. Alarmed to see kidney function appears to be affected and was decidedly not the case when I had full labs back in October. Including a few values here for reference. Free T, E2, and CMP are not back yet.

	October 8​	December 30​
Hemoglobin​	16​	16.3​
Hematocrit​	48.1​	49.2​
Creatinine​	1.23​	1.64​
BUN​	15​	11​
Total Testosterone​	588​	884​
SHBG​	25.7​	19.9​

I'm thoroughly freaked out by the decline in kidney function. I know that some stuff can throw off that value. I had eaten braised beef the night before and had a high protein breakfast/lunch yesterday (smoked pork shoulder) so I'm hoping that was enough to throw this off and that I don't have kidney disease. Apparently high blood pressure can also elevate creatinine due to stress on the kidneys, so if my BP is high that might be a factor as well.

 

[Novaman]

What did your TT, FT, E2, SHBG numbers look like during these periods where you felt so bad? I'm wondering if there is something to be gleaned from your FT:E2 ratio, or your total E2 level being low, or low SHBG, etc. How did your hematocrit and hemoglobin look during the worst phases for you? Did you ever do a cortisol test? I'm also curious because 1mg of Arimidex each week is a LOT, so I wonder if your E2 was lower than it needed to be for a long time if you were being overprescribed aromatase inhibitors.

Were you always on compounded testosterone? Or did you ever inject "big pharma" test from Pfizer, Watson, etc?

I'm very curious in my case whether the culprit may be excess free T, or whether my estradiol is elevated, lower than it should be, etc. My SHBG was already on the low side and I wonder whether the nandrolone may exacerbate that in some capacity. I also know that years ago, I self-prescribed some low-dose exemestane to try lowering my E2 to see if it helped with water retention, my sleep was disastrously bad for quite a while. Took 6 months or so to return to normal. I think I dropped below whatever threshold worked for me and I suffered for it, plus it didn't help with water retention. So I am going to be curious to see where my E2 is as well when I get bloodwork.

Here's the thread with more detail of what I was dealing with and my protocols towards the end. Post #14 has the info you are looking for

What is the Lowest Dose Protocol That You Find Works Long Term?

My HCT was borderline high. I never took a cortisol test. My initial huge dose of AI was because the first doc I was using was an idiot- yes I did crash my E2 because of it. I was always on compounded Testosterone

 

[Gman86]

CBC is back along with TT test. Alarmed to see kidney function appears to be affected and was decidedly not the case when I had full labs back in October. Including a few values here for reference. Free T, E2, and CMP are not back yet.

	October 8​	December 30​
Hemoglobin​	16​	16.3​
Hematocrit​	48.1​	49.2​
Creatinine​	1.23​	1.64​
BUN​	15​	11​
Total Testosterone​	588​	884​
SHBG​	25.7​	19.9​

I'm thoroughly freaked out by the decline in kidney function. I know that some stuff can throw off that value. I had eaten braised beef the night before and had a high protein breakfast/lunch yesterday (smoked pork shoulder) so I'm hoping that was enough to throw this off and that I don't have kidney disease. Apparently high blood pressure can also elevate creatinine due to stress on the kidneys, so if my BP is high that might be a factor as well.

Doesn’t creatinine go up when working out? I’m not sure increased creatinine is a good indicator of poor kidney function. There’s much better markers to test kidney function. Plus your BUN level is on the lower side. High BUN indicates kidney dysfunction and if you had high BP, it would cause your BUN to be high, not low. So to me, based on those labs, your kidney function seems pretty good. I’d have to see other kidney function labs to determine whether the increase in creatinine was and issue or not.

Has your SHBG ever been that low? Just wondering if nandrolone lowers SHBG or not

 

[eyeheartny]

Doesn’t creatinine go up when working out? I’m not sure increased creatinine is a good indicator of poor kidney function. There’s much better markers to test kidney function. Plus your BUN level is on the lower side. High BUN indicates kidney dysfunction and if you had high BP, it would cause your BUN to be high, not low. So to me, based on those labs, your kidney function seems pretty good. I’d have to see other kidney function labs to determine whether the increase in creatinine was and issue or not.

Has your SHBG ever been that low? Just wondering if nandrolone lowers SHBG or not

Thanks for posting that. I feel a bit better seeing that. I haven’t worked out in 10 days due to a bad cold I’m now getting over.

What other values would you want to see to evaluate kidney function?

My SHBG is unchanged from when I was on ED propionate. I would expect that it would rise on long esters but it probably hasn’t come up yet.

 

[eyeheartny]

The rest of my labs are back in. Everything looks fine except the creatinine level. Free T:E2 ratio looks closer to what Defy wanted to see me at.

Sensitive E2: 27.7 pg/mL ref 8.0-35.0
Free Testosterone: 23.2 pg/mL 8.7-25.1
Testosterone: 884 ng/dL 264-916
SHBG: 19.9 nmol/L 16.5-55.9

Sleep is still terrible, according to my sleep ring I'm getting 0 minutes of deep sleep (down from around an hour average back in October), RHR at night is slowly coming down, testicles still sitting really high up, and I'm still aware of my heart beat. I am going to get a BP monitor today to see if my BP is elevated. I haven't injected nandrolone since last Saturday but due to the long half life it'll take a while to be out of my system. I have a Defy consult on Tuesday to discuss all this. I'm still feeling really frustrated as I don't know why I'm feeling the way I do and why my sleep quality is so poor. I've gotten rid of my cold so that's not a factor anymore.

 

[Novaman]

Keep us posted. The issues you are describing is exactly why I gave up.

 

[eyeheartny]

Keep us posted. The issues you are describing is exactly why I gave up.

What I don't understand is why this would have happened suddenly. I never experienced this before the last few weeks and all of a sudden it's come on. I'm quite discouraged as I had been fine for many years and then this cropped up. Did your issues arise suddenly?

 

[Gman86]

What I don't understand is why this would have happened suddenly. I never experienced this before the last few weeks and all of a sudden it's come on. I'm quite discouraged as I had been fine for many years and then this cropped up. Did your issues arise suddenly?

It happened within the first week of adding the nandrolone correct? It’s hard to believe that the deca, with its long esther, had such an effect on u so quickly, when so little was in ur system at that time. This is obv assuming the deca is the cause of your issues.

 

[Novaman]

What I don't understand is why this would have happened suddenly. I never experienced this before the last few weeks and all of a sudden it's come on. I'm quite discouraged as I had been fine for many years and then this cropped up. Did your issues arise suddenly?

I was fine for a while. Maybe 8 months? The first thing I started to notice was the heart pounding issue. Then over time the sleep started to deteriorate. I just wasn’t sure if it was because I was just getting older (I’m 56) or due to the TRT. All I know is that since I’ve been off TRT I’m sleeping better.

 

[eyeheartny]

It happened within the first week of adding the nandrolone correct? It’s hard to believe that the deca, with its long esther, had such an effect on u so quickly, when so little was in ur system at that time. This is obv assuming the deca is the cause of your issues.

Yes, it happened within a few days of starting that got worse the longer I used the Deca. The same thing happened a few times when I used too much progesterone cream on my scrotum a few months ago. However, that issue resolved immediately upon cessation of the progesterone cream, whereas this is not resolving quickly. I have switched back to the pharma test cypionate for the time being as well. According to the Tru-T calculator my Free T is at 30.23 ng/dL, which is above range and could also be causing some of these symptoms/issues.

My hypothesis is that these issues have something to do with nandrolone's activity at either the progesterone receptor or the mineralocorticoid receptor. If it's the PR, then the similar symptoms I had with the progesterone cream should dissipate once the nandrolone is out of my system. It's the MR, the nandrolone may be spiking my BP or changing the fluid balance in my body. The vascularity in my arms has not returned so I think something is still off with the way I'm holding water.

I did a double-red blood donation in late October and have had 4 blood draws for labs since then, so I guess it's possible that my iron/ferritin levels are low. The elevated heart rate and fatigue are associated with low ferritin. I guess my thyroid could also be off kilter in some way as well, both due to iron as well as iron's effect on the thyroid.

Based on half-life calculators it's going to take a while before the nandrolone is totally out of my system, unfortunately, so it'll be a while before I know whether that is what causes these symptoms.

 

[Gman86]

Yes, it happened within a few days of starting that got worse the longer I used the Deca. The same thing happened a few times when I used too much progesterone cream on my scrotum a few months ago. However, that issue resolved immediately upon cessation of the progesterone cream, whereas this is not resolving quickly. I have switched back to the pharma test cypionate for the time being as well. According to the Tru-T calculator my Free T is at 30.23 ng/dL, which is above range and could also be causing some of these symptoms/issues.

My hypothesis is that these issues have something to do with nandrolone's activity at either the progesterone receptor or the mineralocorticoid receptor. If it's the PR, then the similar symptoms I had with the progesterone cream should dissipate once the nandrolone is out of my system. It's the MR, the nandrolone may be spiking my BP or changing the fluid balance in my body. The vascularity in my arms has not returned so I think something is still off with the way I'm holding water.

I did a double-red blood donation in late October and have had 4 blood draws for labs since then, so I guess it's possible that my iron/ferritin levels are low. I guess my thyroid could also be off kilter in some way as well.

Based on half-life calculators it's going to take a while before the nandrolone is totally out of my system, unfortunately, so it'll be a while before I know whether that is what causes these symptoms.

Ya it’s just interesting, I’ve never heard of anyone having these symptoms on deca before, and I’ve been asking so many people about their experiences on deca. Everyone seems to do so well on it, other than a few guys that experience some depression and memory issues. But I’ve never heard of anyone experiencing the issues you’re experiencing from deca. One part of me wants deca to be the cause for you so that u have something to blame, and can correct, but the other part of me wants it to be caused by something else. We’ll obviously find out in a month or less whether it was the deca or not causing ur issues. Is unfortunate that we have to wait so long to find out. Obviously harder for you to have to wait, considering what you’re going through atm

 

[eyeheartny]

Ya it’s just interesting, I’ve never heard of anyone having these symptoms on deca before, and I’ve been asking so many people about their experiences on deca. Everyone seems to do so well on it, other than a few guys that experience some depression and memory issues. But I’ve never heard of anyone experiencing the issues you’re experiencing from deca. One part of me wants deca to be the cause for you so that u have something to blame, and can correct, but the other part of me wants it to be caused by something else. We’ll obviously find out in a month or less whether it was the deca or not causing ur issues. Is unfortunate that we have to wait so long to find out. Obviously harder for you to have to wait, considering what you’re going through atm

Yeah. I'm just exhausted from not sleeping well. It's taking a huge toll on me right now. I may get some blood work for iron/ferritin to see if I look low there.

One other possibility is that my iron stores were low from the double red donation in October, and then being hypogonadal on the propionate didn't help my iron levels rebound from that double red, and then the rapid increase in levels on test/nandrolone drew down my iron stores further due to increased erythropoiesis. Plenty of my current symptoms match the low ferritin ones, and there are plenty of reports of people having adequate hemoglobin/hematocrit and low ferritin. I may try supplementing with some iron, vitamin c, and l-lysine to try to raise my ferritin levels.