Enclomiphene - eye floaters?

[Hoodlum]

Been on enclo for about 6 weeks, feeling decent on it, 12.5mg ED.

I've always had shocking eye floaters, 100s, some thick filaments which obscure my vision. Kind of got used to them, checked many times by eye doctors, nothing wrong as such. Gradually gotten worse over the years.

Last few days they seem to be worse than ever. Wondering if the enclo can be contributing.

Do we know definitely if it can cause floaters same as covid?

If so, is it likely they would have taken 6 weeks to show up, or much sooner?

Asking because perception of floaters is highly subjective, can easily talk oneself into making them seem worse than they are. Might just be coincidence, maybe just developed a new one which is persistently stuck in the central axis of my vision.

Cheers

 

[SSHSSA74]

I have them (floaters) too and am looking into getting a vitrectomy. They are getting worse and are really starting to annoy me. I have no idea about enclo as a cause of floaters though...

 

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[Hoodlum]

Thanks for sharing - but do we know definitely if this applies to enclo as well?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Thanks for sharing - but do we know definitely if this applies to enclo as well?

It is a very similar molecule.

 

[Hoodlum]

I have them (floaters) too and am looking into getting a vitrectomy. They are getting worse and are really starting to annoy me. I have no idea about enclo as a cause of floaters though...

Check out Dr. Jerry Sebag - he has pioneered a partial vitrectomy for floaters which avoids cataract formation

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks for sharing - but do we know definitely if this applies to enclo as well?

Unfortunately the information is lacking. The Wiki text nicely clarifies the relationships:

Clomifene [Clomid] consists of two stereoisomers in equal proportion: enclomifene and zuclomifene. Zuclomifene has pro-estrogenic properties, whereas enclomiphene is pro-androgenic, i.e. it promotes testosterone production through stimulation of the HPG axis. For this reason, purified enclomiphene isomer has been found to be twice as effective in boosting testosterone compared to the standard mix of both isomers.[9] Additionally, enclomifene has a halflife of just 10 hours, but zuclomifene has a halflife of 30 days—therefore if the goal is to boost testosterone, taking regular clomifene may produce far longer-lasting pro-estrogenic effects than pro-androgenic effects.​

So even though the isomers are virtually identical they produce dramatically different effects. I have yet to see anything definitive about the reason for visual disturbances with Clomid. This suggests we don't know if the culprit is enclomiphene, zuclomiphene, or both. In any case, the association appears to be with higher doses, 50 mg and up of Clomid. I find this reassuring. I've always had some floaters, though not as bad as yours. I took 12.5 mg enclomiphene daily for 7 months without noticing any visual changes. Including my every-other-day dosing, I'm coming up on two years of use without incident. Given the lack of knowledge about Clomid and enclomiphene it's reasonable to have reservations about long-term use, as expressed in Curt Moyer's article.

 

[Hoodlum]

Unfortunately the information is lacking. The Wiki text nicely clarifies the relationships:

Clomifene [Clomid] consists of two stereoisomers in equal proportion: enclomifene and zuclomifene. Zuclomifene has pro-estrogenic properties, whereas enclomiphene is pro-androgenic, i.e. it promotes testosterone production through stimulation of the HPG axis. For this reason, purified enclomiphene isomer has been found to be twice as effective in boosting testosterone compared to the standard mix of both isomers.[9] Additionally, enclomifene has a halflife of just 10 hours, but zuclomifene has a halflife of 30 days—therefore if the goal is to boost testosterone, taking regular clomifene may produce far longer-lasting pro-estrogenic effects than pro-androgenic effects.​

So even though the isomers are virtually identical they produce dramatically different effects. I have yet to see anything definitive about the reason for visual disturbances with Clomid. This suggests we don't know if the culprit is enclomiphene, zuclomiphene, or both. In any case, the association appears to be with higher doses, 50 mg and up of Clomid. I find this reassuring. I've always had some floaters, though not as bad as yours. I took 12.5 mg enclomiphene daily for 7 months without noticing any visual changes. Including my every-other-day dosing, I'm coming up on two years of use without incident. Given the lack of knowledge about Clomid and enclomiphene it's reasonable to have reservations about long-term use, as expressed in Curt Moyer's article.

Thanks, the article was interesting, and is food for thought. My floaters have settled back down to their usual (awful) state today, so as I suspected, I was just having a bad spell with them, and then got it into my head it might be because of the enclo.

I came off shots on to enclo for fertility reasons, and with the linked article in mind, I think it would be wiser to get back on to shots once kids are achieved.

Given enclo's half-life of around 10 hours, EOD dosing means it would be mostly cleared from your system between doses.

Can I ask how switching from ED to EOD affected your T levels, and how you felt? Obviously the less of something we can take for good effects the better...

Cheers

 

[Cataceous]

...
Can I ask how switching from ED to EOD affected your T levels, and how you felt? Obviously the less of something we can take for good effects the better...

Cheers

My use of enclomiphene is somewhat unorthodox, as I combine it with TRT. This means I gauge the effectiveness with LH rather than testosterone. With 12.5 mg daily enclomiphene I can achieve low-normal LH. It appears that with every-other-day dosing LH drops to a little below the normal range. However, the subjective results at the lower dose are as good as or better than at the higher dose. With the unknowns regarding enclomiphene the lower dose makes more sense. I recently ran a trial in which I halved the enclomiphene dose rate to every fourth day. In this case the subjective results were clearly inferior, suggesting enclomiphene is contributing to my good results.

 

[Hoodlum]

My use of enclomiphene is somewhat unorthodox, as I combine it with TRT. This means I gauge the effectiveness with LH rather than testosterone. With 12.5 mg daily enclomiphene I can achieve low-normal LH. It appears that with every-other-day dosing LH drops to a little below the normal range. However, the subjective results at the lower dose are as good as or better than at the higher dose. With the unknowns regarding enclomiphene the lower dose makes more sense. I recently ran a trial in which I halved the enclomiphene dose rate to every fourth day. In this case the subjective results were clearly inferior, suggesting enclomiphene is contributing to my good results.

When you refer to the subjective results, you mean how you feel on a daily basis? Can you notice a difference from the enclo on top of the TRT which (presumably) makes you feel good already?

 

[Cataceous]

Yes, subjective is how it feels overall, in contrast to something objective, like the level of luteinizing hormone. Subjectively, ordering from worst to best:
• hypogonadism
• TRT
• TRT + hCG
• TRT + enclomiphene + GnRH + etc. (protocol development discussed here, current version here)

Of course different guys might order the list differently. For me, TRT versus hypogonadism is like two steps forward and then one step backward due to HTPA shutdown. Similarly, the benefits of adding hCG to TRT are somewhat offset by the subsequent problems with estradiol and prolactin.

 

[Hoodlum]

Yes, subjective is how it feels overall, in contrast to something objective, like the level of luteinizing hormone. Subjectively, ordering from worst to best:
• hypogonadism
• TRT
• TRT + hCG
• TRT + enclomiphene + GnRH + etc. (protocol development discussed here, current version here)

Of course different guys might order the list differently. For me, TRT versus hypogonadism is like two steps forward and then one step backward due to HTPA shutdown. Similarly, the benefits of adding hCG to TRT are somewhat offset by the subsequent problems with estradiol and prolactin.

Right, I had no idea it was possible to boost one's feeling of wellbeing with enclo + GnRH beyond what I just considered "normal" on standard TRT. Very interesting, I'll read the links, thanks.

 

[SSHSSA74]

Check out Dr. Jerry Sebag - he has pioneered a partial vitrectomy for floaters which avoids cataract formation

Thank you

 

[DorianGray]

I was only on Clomid for about six months but never really bothered by the small amount of floaters. That's been over a couple years ago since Clomid discontinued. But now they've gotten to the annoying level also. I suspect a coincidental progression. They thought of partially sucking out my eye fluid is scary. Dr. Sebag seems to be well qualified for those inclined. Interesting stuff on his website.

Floaters Treatment in California - Retina Specialists Huntington Beach 92647

 

[SSHSSA74]

Thanks. I will check it out.

 

[MIP1950]

The risk of visual problems is why my urologist didn't prescribe Clomid when I asked about it several years ago.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

I was only on Clomid for about six months but never really bothered by the small amount of floaters. That's been over a couple years ago since Clomid discontinued. But now they've gotten to the annoying level also. I suspect a coincidental progression. They thought of partially sucking out my eye fluid is scary. Dr. Sebag seems to be well qualified for those inclined. Interesting stuff on his website.

Floaters Treatment in California - Retina Specialists Huntington Beach 92647

You've been off of clomid for years and you still have floaters?

 

[Mojo88]

............I've always had shocking eye floaters, 100s, some thick filaments which obscure my vision. Kind of got used to them, checked many times by eye doctors, nothing wrong as such. Gradually gotten worse over the years.........

I developed horrible eye floaters after cataract surgery. Ended up with PVD in both eyes. Doc says all is OK, but nothing to be done (except dangerous vitrectomy).

Anyway, about two years ago, I came across an interesting eye floater study that involved eating a slice or two of pineapple every day to reduce floaters. I figured it must be pure BS, but since it was cheap, and risk-free, I decided to give it a try. After about 3 weeks, I was amazed, the floaters were much better... not gone, but better. So now I try to eat a slice of pineapple or two every day. I notice the floaters coming back when I stop eating the pineapple, and then when I start eating it again, it takes about 10 days for the magic to happen. Here's a link: Pineapple for Eye Floaters: Sweet Deal or Pipe Dream?

 

[SSHSSA74]

I developed horrible eye floaters after cataract surgery. Ended up with PVD in both eyes. Doc says all is OK, but nothing to be done (except dangerous vitrectomy).

Anyway, about two years ago, I came across an interesting eye floater study that involved eating a slice or two of pineapple every day to reduce floaters. I figured it must be pure BS, but since it was cheap, and risk-free, I decided to give it a try. After about 3 weeks, I was amazed, the floaters were much better... not gone, but better. So now I try to eat a slice of pineapple or two every day. I notice the floaters coming back when I stop eating the pineapple, and then when I start eating it again, it takes about 10 days for the magic to happen. Here's a link: Pineapple for Eye Floaters: Sweet Deal or Pipe Dream?

Thanks for the tip. I will give it a try. I would like to be able to get ahold of the capsules he used in the second study.

 

[3Archbay]

It is a very similar molecule.

Similar? Zuclomiphene is very estrogenic, while Enclomiphene not only is not, but is an estrogen antagonist... right?
So, not THAT similar... agree?