New Protocol, Elevated RHR/Poor Sleep/Eye Floaters. Abort or Stay the Course?

[eyeheartny]

• Basic Info
  • I'm 6 days into a major protocol change overseen by Defy Medical and feeling really strange and unsettling side effects.
  • There are some confounding factors that are making it hard for me to know what to do. Defy is closed for a few days for the holiday so I can't get a consult and would appreciate any help.
  • My SHBG tends to run on the low side; at my prior steady state SHBG was 25.7; on the low blood levels on test prop (see more below) my SHBG was 19.2 nmoL/L.
• Protocol Change Info
  • Failed on a test propionate trial that started October 22nd due to trough levels being too low and rapid decrease in libido, mood, etc. On Nov 27 I went back to test cyp (pharma, not compounded, different carrier oil than currently) for a few weeks at 24mg EOD. This was lower than my 40mg EOD protocol I was on prior to the test propionate trial. As of December 18 Defy has me on 30mg test enanthate EOD and 30mg nandrolone EOD. I'm only injecting 24mg of the nandrolone currently. My first injections were on 12/18 of this new protocol.
  • I am not taking any AIs or other hormone-affecting supps (no pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, etc).
• Symptoms
  • Elevated heart rate/"awareness" of my heartbeat
    • This is confirmed by my Oura sleep ring; my average RHR at night has gone up by over 10bpm over the last week on this new protocol
    • I'm aware of my heartbeat during the day in a different way than I have been before except when I used progesterone cream (see below).
  • Disrupted sleep
    • I've previously experimented with using a bit of progesterone cream at night to help with sleep and water retention. If I used too much of it I experienced similar sleep disruption to what I'm dealing with now (no deep sleep, lots of light/REM sleep, not feeling rested) as well as the elevated heart rate.
    • I had a few days of morning wood after my first few shots but it's been weaker the last few days, with morning wood decreasing as RHR elevates
  • Rapid increase in eye floaters
    • These are noticeably increased lately. Weirding me out. I've seen people refer to these happening when they took Clomid but I'm obviously not on that.
• Confounding Factors
  • I have a moderate cold right now, so I have a tight chest, congestion, etc. I know that being sick can increase RHR and disrupt sleep.

I'm feeling freaked out by the elevated heart rate. I'm a reasonably fit guy and not used to feeling my heartbeat except when I'm exercising. It's now been 24/7 for several days and nighttime RHR is increasing by around 1bpm every day. Since some of the symptoms are things I experienced when I previously tried progesterone cream, I'm wondering if the nandrolone might be binding to my progesterone receptors too much. The eye floaters are freaking me out too.

Do any of the following seem like reasonable explanations?

1. Elevated E2
2. Elevated Progesterone/Excess Binding at Progesterone Receptor
3. Decreased E2
4. Excess Free Androgens

Which course of action would you guys recommend of the following?

1. Stay the Course: change nothing, let my body adjust especially since I've been sick
   1. Get bloodwork or not?
2. Drop the Nandrolone: only inject the testosterone and see if symptoms abate; then get a Defy consult
   1. Get bloodwork or not?
3. Try an AI
   1. The eye floaters and increased RHR make me wonder if my E2 is elevated. I have some 0.1mg arimidex caps I could try taking.
4. ???
   1. Something else I'm not thinking of?

I'm going to tag some members who have been super helpful in the past to see if they may be able to weigh in here or on the off chance they're active: @Cataceous @Dr Justin Saya MD @Gman86 @madhacker @madman
@Nelson Vergel

 

[Gman86]

Definitely wouldn’t take an ai. I think the best move in the short term is stop the deca, temporarily, just to see if the eye floaters go away and if your resting HR goes back down.

 

[Gman86]

Do you think your testosterone dose is too low? I’ve been thinking about this lately. So if nandrolone is different than testosterone, and shouldn’t add anything really to your total T, should your testosterone dose really be lowered down to 100mg/ week? Deca should theoretically increase free T a bit, which means you can use less testosterone, but just wondering if your testosterone dose is too low.

It’s also hard to believe that the deca could be causing the effects that you’re experiencing, since it has such a long esther. There shouldn’t be much in your system atm.

Are you still taking progesterone?

 

[eyeheartny]

Do you think your testosterone dose is too low? I’ve been thinking about this lately. So if nandrolone is different than testosterone, and shouldn’t add anything really to your total T, should your testosterone dose really be lowered down to 100mg/ week? Deca should theoretically increase free T a bit, which means you can use less testosterone, but just wondering if your testosterone dose is too low.

It’s also hard to believe that the deca could be causing the effects that you’re experiencing, since it has such a long esther. There shouldn’t be much in your system atm.

Are you still taking progesterone?

Haven’t used progesterone cream for months. No other hormone affecting supplements either. The only other difference is that I switched from pharma test cyp to compounded enanthate with a different carrier oil. I agree that it’s weird the nandrolone would cause this since it’s such a long ester but I can’t figure out what else would be doing this. The testosterone is a possibility since a) I’ve never used an enanthate ester b) I have never used grape seed oil as a carrier, only cottonseed like in the pharma cyp I have.

I’m not at all sure how to rule out what might be causing this, but I know I don’t like how I feel and want to change up ASAP whatever is causing it.

 

[Gman86]

If I were in your position, I would 100% just stop injecting the deca and see if that helps any, and reassess from there.

I’m following your journey like a hawk, since I’m going to eventually be in the same position you’re in. I’m also with Defy, and will eventually be using testosterone and deca.

I would also just switch to brand name enanthate on your next refill, to see if that changes anything for the better. I will be ordering westward brand enanthate through Defy once my 5ml bottle of Empower enanthate is finished.

 

[Vince Carter]

Youve been on a new protocol for 8 days which is no room to judge it just because your RHR is up 10bpm and by your own count youre sick any way.
I think any changes and recommending changes, these guys have some strong urge to be helpful, but at this point I don't think it's prudent.

 

[eyeheartny]

If I were in your position, I would 100% just stop injecting the deca and see if that helps any, and reassess from there.

I’m following your journey like a hawk, since I’m going to eventually be in the same position you’re in. I’m also with Defy, and will eventually be using testosterone and deca.

I would also just switch to brand name enanthate on your next refill, to see if that changes anything for the better. I will be ordering westward brand enanthate through Defy once my 5ml bottle of Empower enanthate is finished.

Glad to have you following along. I’m going to inject tonight with my pharma cyp I have on hand since I know it doesn’t make me react badly. Once I get regulated I’ll try the deca again. If I get the same reaction I’ll try to get deca compounded with cottonseed oil to see definitively if it’s the nandrolone or the carrier oil. Whatever is happening is highly unpleasant.

 

[xqfq]

Why are you on nandrolone?

I agree with Vince Carter. I would chill out and continue the protocol for several more weeks. It sounds like your hormones are very much in flux.

If your blood pressure is fine I would it worry about the elevated RHR in the short term.

 

[Gman86]

Glad to have you following along. I’m going to inject tonight with my pharma cyp I have on hand since I know it doesn’t make me react badly. Once I get regulated I’ll try the deca again. If I get the same reaction I’ll try to get deca compounded with cottonseed oil to see definitively if it’s the nandrolone or the carrier oil. Whatever is happening is highly unpleasant.

I think those are great ideas. Definitely keep us posted. I wish I could start deca soon. But I have to finish up my little experiment comparing compounded enanthate to brand name.

Part of me is glad that I have to wait a bit though. Im still trying to figure out the best dosing protocol when using both. My current view is to drop testosterone down from 180mg/ week to 150mg/ week, and use a 2:1 ratio of testosterone to deca. So I think 75mg of deca per week is a good HRT dose to start. Can lower or increase either of them depending on if DHT is high enough, and where my total, free T and E2 end up.

 

[eyeheartny]

Why are you on nandrolone?

I agree with Vince Carter. I would chill out and continue the protocol for several more weeks. It sounds like your hormones are very much in flux.

If your blood pressure is fine I would it worry about the elevated RHR in the short term.

I’m on nandrolone at Defy’s suggestion to help balance my E2: Free T ratio. I was at around a 2:1 before and the PA at Defy wanted to try getting me to 1:1 without using an AI as I’m not willing to use AIs long term and always felt like garbage when I’ve tried them (both arimidex and exemestane).

I have struggled with water retention for many years (on TRT for nearly 8 years) and the initial goal of the propionate trial was to see if the shorter ester helped reduce water retention. It did not, and my trough levels were really low (TT 348, free t 9.2, E2 17) while my peak values quite high (TT 1300, E2 53) even on daily injections. Those big swings were just rough on my body. I didn’t ask for nandrolone but Defy suggested it and I was willing to try it at their suggestion due to its lower aromatization profile compared to testosterone.

I’ve been up as much as 175mg/week on test only and was bloated and fatigued. 125-140 seems to have been a good spot for me. Trough values around 580-600 and E2 around 30ish. I still had water retention at those numbers.

I did talk to Defy about trying a diuretic at some point to see if that helped. The one good thing about the propionate trial is that I slept better. The Defy PA suggested it may have been due to lowered E2.

I haven’t checked my BP as I don’t have a monitor.

 

[eyeheartny]

Youve been on a new protocol for 8 days which is no room to judge it just because your RHR is up 10bpm and by your own count youre sick any way.
I think any changes and recommending changes, these guys have some strong urge to be helpful, but at this point I don't think it's prudent.

Fair points. But I guess I’m just freaked out by always feeling these heavy heartbeats. I am 38 and don’t have much interest in having a heart attack. I have been struggling to sleep because of this elevated heart rate. I hear what you’re saying about not changing course too fast. I guess I’m just very unsettled by how this feels.

 

[eyeheartny]

One additional note. Prior to these recent changes (when on cyp only) my forearms and arms were typically quite vascular. Since starting this protocol my vascularity has noticeably decreased. Not sure if that’s at all relevant.

 

[Gman86]

One additional note. Prior to these recent changes (when on cyp only) my forearms and arms were typically quite vascular. Since starting this protocol my vascularity has noticeably decreased. Not sure if that’s at all relevant.

Every symptom is relevant. It all helps put the puzzle together.

Every symptom you’ve described could be due to testosterone levels being too low, or the fact that they’re in flux. The only thing that confuses me is the eye floaters.

I actually can’t wait to try brand name testosterone, whether it be enanthate or cyp. The only testosterone I’ve ever tried while on HRT is empower’s compounded testosterone. 99% of guys on here will tell you test is test, and little things like Esthers, or brand names vs compounded will make no difference. And in most cases, they’re probably right. But we’re all extremely individual, and you just can’t rule anything out when it comes to our own individual body chemistries.

I was private messaging someone recently, and this was something he said that really got me thinking that it might be worth at least trying brand name test just to see if I notice any differences.

“ I have a prescription but only got the compounded from empower so far. I got the Bayer before I had a prescription but I'm glad I don't have to get it illegally anymore. My friend who gave me the Pfizer is a pro athlete and his parents are both chemists for pharmaceutical companies and he told me they said to never ever take a generic of any drug for any reason, they said the smallest change in the excipients, or the way they synthesize the raws, can drastically effect side effects and efficacy. My friend also told me from his anecdotal experience that he felt great on Pfizer and always had issues on everything else he tried. I checked with defy and they said they have Pfizer, sun pharma, and another I haven't heard of. So I think I'll do the Pfizer again.”

 

[Deleted member 16042]

While having such symptomatic changes at the time of a protocol change points to the protocol change as the cause, don't wear blinders. There may be something causative that is co-incidental.

Your combination of symptoms is not anything I have personally had, but I did have increase in resting pulse, plus orthostatic circulatory symptoms (dizziness, elevated bounding HR on standing), and general decreasing energy ability to exercise etc. This was coincidental with being prescribed Alfuzosin. Dr and I thought it was side effects. I also went to the cardiologist had an EKG and ran a treadmill test... negative for arrythmia or ischemia. By the time I had my next CBC, I was profoundly anemic:

RBC 1.9 (4.4-6.38)
HGB 7.0 (13.5-17.5)
HCT 20.1 (30-51)

It had nothing to do with Alfuzosin side effects.

 

[DS3]

eyeheartny

Just read your post. I am currently on a similar protocol through the Baylor College of Medicine. In regard to nandrolone and sleep disturbances, Empower notes that trouble sleeping is a potential side effect. "Adverse Reactions: Change in sex drive or performance; diarrhea; hair loss; headache; trouble sleeping."

I personally have experienced extreme sleep disturbance using 100 mg of nandrolone per week. I have disturbing dreams and as you state, feel like I pretty much stay in REM sleep the entire night. I have also experienced slight short-term memory impairment while using nandrolone. This side effect is supported in mice studies; however, the doses used in the study were 10-20x the doses used in therapeutic settings.

From personal experience, if you have just made a significant change to your protocol, expect side effects for the first few weeks. Your nervous system is a delicate thing, and throwing powerful hormones around will affect various nervous system functions and potentially cause side effects. If you don't stick with a protocol for long enough, nothing will work.

I too have low SHBG, sitting at 20 nmol/L. I have tried all forms of Testosterone, propionate being my absolute preferred ester. I have also tried microdosing daily and EOD and absolutely prefer EOD. Daily shots had my energy feeling terrible.

 

[Gman86]

eyeheartny

Just read your post. I am currently on a similar protocol through the Baylor College of Medicine. In regard to nandrolone and sleep disturbances, Empower notes that trouble sleeping is a potential side effect. "Adverse Reactions: Change in sex drive or performance; diarrhea; hair loss; headache; trouble sleeping."

I personally have experienced extreme sleep disturbance using 100 mg of nandrolone per week. I have disturbing dreams and as you state, feel like I pretty much stay in REM sleep the entire night. I have also experienced slight short-term memory impairment while using nandrolone. This side effect is supported in mice studies; however, the doses used in the study were 10-20x the doses used in therapeutic settings.

From personal experience, if you have just made a significant change to your protocol, expect side effects for the first few weeks. Your nervous system is a delicate thing, and throwing powerful hormones around will affect various nervous system functions and potentially cause side effects. If you don't stick with a protocol for long enough, nothing will work.

I too have low SHBG, sitting at 20 nmol/L. I have tried all forms of Testosterone, propionate being my absolute preferred ester. I have also tried microdosing daily and EOD and absolutely prefer EOD. Daily shots had my energy feeling terrible.

What’s your current protocol? Are you still using nandrolone? Are you currently feeling pretty close to optimal?

 

[DS3]

What’s your current protocol? Are you still using nandrolone? Are you currently feeling pretty close to optimal?

Current Protocol:

75 mg Test Prop EOD

50 mg Deca per week (1 shot)

125 units HCG EOD

No AI (feel terrible with all AIs)

Am I feeling close to optimal? I would say as close as I can get. Test and HCG protocol is ideal for me and keeps me close to 1,100 ng/dl. I use Deca for joint pain and some of the 'nervousness' that TRT causes me (regardless of dosage). Deca is incredible for joints and overall collagen synthesis. However, I feel that Deca decreases short-term memory for me, which somewhat unsettling.

 

[Gman86]

Current Protocol:

75 mg Test Prop EOD

50 mg Deca per week (1 shot)

125 units HCG EOD

No AI (feel terrible with all AIs)

Am I feeling close to optimal? I would say as close as I can get. Test and HCG protocol is ideal for me and keeps me close to 1,100 ng/dl. I use Deca for joint pain and some of the 'nervousness' that TRT causes me (regardless of dosage). Deca is incredible for joints and overall collagen synthesis. However, I feel that Deca decreases short-term memory for me, which somewhat unsettling.

Ya I’ve heard that it can cause some issues with memory in some men. Any idea why it would do that?

Why such a high dose of testosterone?

 

[DS3]

Ya I’ve heard that it can cause some issues with memory in some men. Any idea why it would do that?

Why such a high dose of testosterone?

My T dosage is high primarily because of years of taking AAS (last time was 5 years ago) for bodybuilding purposes. So essentially my receptors have a decreased response to lower dosage of testosterone. 75 mg EOD is where my energy and libido are good. Lower than that just feels like I have low T.

In regard to nandrolone and memory issues, from the studies that I have read it appears to interfere with vital neurotransmitter function in the hippocampus and other brain structures that are essential in memory formation and recollection.

 

[Gman86]

My T dosage is high primarily because of years of taking AAS (last time was 5 years ago) for bodybuilding purposes. So essentially my receptors have a decreased response to lower dosage of testosterone. 75 mg EOD is where my energy and libido are good. Lower than that just feels like I have low T.

In regard to nandrolone and memory issues, from the studies that I have read it appears to interfere with vital neurotransmitter function in the hippocampus and other brain structures that are essential in memory formation and recollection.

Are you still having memory issues now that you dropped your deca down to 50mg/ week?