Switching from sustanon to enanthate

[madman]

Hello. Im sorry for this but I needed to make a new account, turned out for the old one I have mistaken the email, couldnt resetted my password and then found out I have messed the email. Is it possible some admin to transfer all my opinions from the old account to this one and delete the old?

About my protocol - I have done 8 weeks on it. To be honest I felt really awesome in week 5, after that experienced a huge decline in energy and well being and erection quality and started to get some improvements over the last week in all departments. I also had issues with HCG and the quality of the bacteriostatic water(I will make another thread for this issue). As I said in the last week things started to get better. Also in weeks 6 and 7 very oddly I started to feel a surge of energy and libido after injection which made me think I may need to increase the frequency to lets say 3 times a week. But in the last week that disappeared, also the blood work shows very stable levels one day after injection and before the next injection. I guess there might be some fluctuation, but couldnt catch it on paper. I did total t 24h after injection hoping to get the peak, and the detailed blood work just before the next injection with total t as well:

15.04.2021 - 7.5 weeks on 65mg enanthate bi-weekly PEAK, 100 ui HCG daily
Testosterone	S	46.58	nmol/l	9.90 - 27.80	ECLIA
Total Testosterone US Units	S	1353.46	ng/dl	300 - 1500	ECLIA
17.04.2021 - 8 weeks on 65mg enanthate bi-weekly TROUGH, 100 ui HCG daily
Testosterone	S	50.25	nmol/l	9.90 - 27.80	ECLIA
Total Testosterone US Units	S	1449	ng/dl	300 - 1500	ECLIA
Calculated Free Testosteron	S		ng/dl		ECLIA
Албумин	S	45	g/l	35 - 52	PHOT
SHBG	S		nmol/l	18.30 - 54.10	ECLIA
Estradiol	S	65.05	ng/L	7.63 - 42.60	ECLIA
TSH	S	1.02	µIU/ml	0.27 - 4.20	ECLIA
Free Т4 (fT4)	S	16.27	ng/l	9.30 - 17	ECLIA
Free T3 (fT3)	S	3.03	ng/l	2 - 4.40	ECLIA
Cortisol (morning serum)	S	412.8	nmol/l	133 - 537	ECLIA
Prolactin	S	313.2	mIU/L	84.80 - 318	ECLIA
Leukocytes	EB	6.69	G/l	3.5 - 10.5	DC+LD
Erythrocytes	EB	5.52	T/l	4.5 - 5.90	DC-det.
Hemoglobin	EB	166	g/l	140 - 180	SLS
Hematocrit	EB	0.48	l/l	0.40 - 0.53	calc
MCV	EB	87.1	fl	80 - 96	Calc.
MCH	EB	30.1	pg	28 - 33	Calc.
MCHC	EB	345	g/l	300 - 360	Calc.
Tromobociti	EB	206	G/l	140 - 440	DC-det.
RDW-SD	EB	38.5	fl	35.10 - 43.90	calc.
RDW-CV	EB	11.9	%	11 - 14.40	calc.
PDW	EB	11.9	fl	9 - 17	calc.
MPV	EB	10.4	fl	9.40 - 12.40	calc.
P-LCR	EB	27.3	%	13 - 43	calc.
PCT (tromobokrit)	EB	0.21	l/l	0.17 - 0.35	calc.
Total Cholesterol (Chol.)	S	4.24	mmol/l	3.5 - 5.20	PHOT
LDL-Cholesterol (LDL-C)	S	2.91	mmol/l	0 - 3.35	PHOT
Trigleciridi (Tg)	S	0.64	mmol/l	0 - 1.70	PHOT
Albumin	S	45	g/l	35 - 52	PHOT
Bilirubin, total	S	45.9	µmol/l	0 - 21	PHOT
Bilirubin, direct	S	10.7	µmol/l	0 - 8.5	PHOT
AsaT	S	15	IU/l	0 - 40	IFCC
AlaT	S	17	IU/l	0 - 41	IFCC
GGT	S	11	IU/l	0 - 60	IFCC
Na +	S	136	mmol/l	136 - 145	ISE
Cl -	S	99	mmol/l	98 - 107	ISE
Calcium	S	2.3	mmol/l	2.15 - 2.5	CPC
Magnesium (Mg)	S	0.75	mmol/l	0.66 - 1.07	PHOT
Iron	S	29.5	µmol/l	7.2 - 27.7	PHOT
CRP - quantative measurement	S	<1.0	mg/l	0 - 5	TURB
PSA	S	0.6	ng/ml	0.01 - 1.40	ECLIA

My total t might be a bit high(I usually have discovered to feel best at 1200-1300) but still I do not see it as enough reason to change protocol and I think sustanon may be YET TO CLEAR completely. As I have read here somewhere it should take around 5 half lives for a compound to clear, which should mean 10 weeks for sustanon, right?



I have bolded the blood markers that cause me a bit concern. About the iron - since I have started a few times IM injections it has been slightly elevated. Last time I checked it was 18. I think when I settle enough time on the protocol it should decline again, hopefully. @madman how dangerous you think such levels of iron can be, I hope temporarily?

Also about the bilirubin it is a bit of a mystery. No doctor can tell me exactly why it is elevated, I have consulted a few very experienced specialists about this. My endo that has prescribed me TRT and let me to self manage it thinks I may have some birth defect about clearing bilirubin provided my liver enzymes seem fine, I do not drink, eat healthy, have never used recreational drugs and it has been randomly elevated even before TRT, one time it was 10 times the reference range 4 years ago. As medications Im taking 2x500mg metformin(for appetite control purposes, Im not notably IR except being around 22-24 percent body fat) and 2 x 0.250 mg of cabergoline(due to empty cella syndrome, started before TRT). What do you think can be the reason for this bilirubin

Your TT of almost 1500 ng/dL is way too high on your current protocol 130 mg T/week (65 mg every 3.5 days).

With an absurdly high TT 1450 ng/dL your FT will be through the roof and as you can see estradiol is high and prolactin at the top end.

You left out the most critical markers FT and SHBG.

Again although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

With an absurdly high TT 1500 ng/dL your FT is going to be through the roof even if you have high/highish SHBG and the s**t kicker here is if you have low/lowish SHBG then your FT will be even higher.

Pointless to get labs done that only include TT, E2, Prolactin yet leave out two of the most important tests FT and SHBG.

Again the first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the bigger picture as hormones will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels stabilize (4-6 weeks).

During this time the body is trying to adjust to those new levels and the following 2-3 months after blood levels have stabilized it the most critical time period as it will take time for the body to adapt to the new levels and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

You are only 8 weeks in.

Although your iron is just over the top end you need to know where your ferritin sits.

Need to look deeper into why your bilirubin is high.....other blood markers you posted (ALT, AST, GGT) in range.

 

[ivkonst2017]

You left out the most critical markers FT and SHBG.

Thanks for the feedback. I have ordered SHBG but it takes longer to get result, it will be ready in the next few days and will post it. Free T I do not order, because the way they measure it here is totally inaccurate and there is no point. I can only come up with the calculated free t from shbg, albumin and total t. Last time I checked my SHBG has been around 25 but on EOD sustanon, I hope now on bi-weekly it is not in the toilet.

I know my total t is a bit high, usually I have felt best around 1300, but also I feel it is a bit early to change protocol, right? I mean is it also possible sustanon is not yet fully clear and my total t will drop a bit in the next weeks?

For prolactin I suffer from empty sella(probably the reason I needed TRT) and that is why it is elevated. It should be around 260-270, but I couldn't sit 20 min before taking the test this time due to the COVID measures. I need small doses of caber to keep it in range due to my empty sella, it was over the range even before TRT.

As for estradiol I've never had issues with it or complains, even last time my t has hit 1450 estradiol was 82, but Ive never had water retention, nipple sensitivity or any other high e2 symptom.

Although your iron is just over the top end you need to know where your ferritin sits.

Yep decided to skip that test this time, because it is a bit expensive. However ferritin was always mid range or below, never had it at the top range or above. On the other hand iron is often a bit over the top especially around protocol changes. Do you think this level of iron looks concerning, I know iron can build up on blood vessels and in a way cause blood cloths?

The bilirubin is the most mysterious thing. What other blood tests can I make to investigate its issue?

My FT3 also isnt great I think, but it is not terrible either. The FT4 on top of the range makes me feel I have a bit high reverse t3, I take some selenium for thyroid support(around 200mcg daily)

So on my place given the time in the protocol would you wait a few more weeks or decrease your t dose? It is very funny a friend of mine using the same enanthate IM like me on 180mg gets barely 1100 total t..

ALso Im interested do you think 24 hours after injection is the enanthate peak and why trough level is even a bit higher than peak, if not anything else there seems to be not much difference between the two?

 

[ivkonst2017]

SHBG came out, 29.13. Im nicely surprised it is higher than on sustanon EOD(it was 24). I've read opinions sustanon smash SHBG more than cypionate/enanthate?

This would make my calculated free T of 39.3ng/dl which is a bit high, but Ive seen people running higher without issues. Usually I think I've felt best around 30ng/dl calculated free t.

So maybe my best option is to wait a couple of more weeks to see whether I would feel better or possibly my total t would drop due to clearing of sustanon still remaining in the system? Maybe after that I can consider a 10mg decrease of dosage, but Im tired of changing protocols now...

 

[madman]

SHBG came out, 29.13. Im nicely surprised it is higher than on sustanon EOD(it was 24). I've read opinions sustanon smash SHBG more than cypionate/enanthate?

This would make my calculated free T of 39.3ng/dl which is a bit high, but Ive seen people running higher without issues. Usually I think I've felt best around 30ng/dl calculated free t.

So maybe my best option is to wait a couple of more weeks to see whether I would feel better or possibly my total t would drop due to clearing of sustanon still remaining in the system? Maybe after that I can consider a 10mg decrease of dosage, but Im tired of changing protocols now...

Even with an SHBG 29nmol/L and TT roughly 1449 ng/dL your FT is most likely much higher than 39 ng/dL.

You are relying on the linear law-of-mass action cFTV which has your FT 39.7 ng/dL.

The newer cFTZ has your FT 51.58 ng/dL.

My Most Recent Labs.

My protocol, 16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg twice weekly and no AI. Pregnenolone 10 mg and 25 mg of DHEA. My last injection before labs, about 28 hr.s. Labs are from LabCorp. Testosterone, Serum 1319 ng/dL range 264-916 Free Testosterone 47.9 ng/dL range...

www.excelmale.com

Take a good look where Vince's FT sits running a TT 1300 ng/dL (lower than yours) with SHBG 48 nmol/L (much higher than yours).

It was tested using one of the most accurate assays Equilibrium Ultrafiltration and as you can clearly see it is absurdly high.

Testosterone, Serum 1319 ng/dL range 264-916
Free Testosterone 47.9 ng/dL range 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 3.57 range 1.50-4.20
DHEA-Sulfate 449.0 H ug/dL range 30.9-295.6 (age adjusted)
Estradiol, Sensitive 24.0 pg/mL range 8.0-35.0
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 48.2 nmol/L range 19.3-76.4
Hematocrit 46.8 % range 37.5-51.0
Hemoglobin 16.0 g/dL range 13.0-17.7
Albumin 4.2 g/dL range 3.8-4.8




If one truly feels well-running absurdly high levels and blood markers are healthy I would see no issue but keep in mind that many of these same individuals claiming to need such were either jacked up on T from the get-go or were stuck on that more T is better mentality.

I need to run such levels to feel good they say yet many have never given a lower-dose protocol a fighting chance.....I still felt shitty running a trough TT 1200 ng/dL 6 weeks in......time to jack up my levels further as I am sure to feel better eventually.....LMFAO!

The Sustanon will be out of your system by now as the longest-acting ester in the formulation is decanoate.

Sustanon 250 is a solution in oil. Each ampoule contains 1 ml Arachis oil containing the following active substances:

- 30 mg Testosterone propionate

- 60 mg Testosterone phenylpropionate

- 60 mg Testosterone isocaproate

- 100 mg Testosterone decanoate




Still need to look into where your ferritin sits.

Blood donation would bring down the iron but also drop ferritin.

Again you are only 8 weeks in and would need to give the protocol a fighting chance as in 2-3 months once blood levels have stabilized to gauge how you truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

Unless you were suffering from sides let alone RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit was elevated then it would be sensible to lower your T dose and bring down your FT levels.

When using enanthate T levels will start rising within the first 2 hrs post-injection and peak @ 8-12 hrs.

Keep in mind when having blood work done whether peak/trough it is just a snapshot.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Still need to look into where your ferritin sits.

Blood donation would bring down the iron but also drop ferritin.

Again you are only 8 weeks in and would need to give the protocol a fighting chance as in 2-3 months once blood levels have stabilized to gauge how you truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

Unless you were suffering from sides let alone RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit was elevated then it would be sensible to lower your T dose and bring down your FT levels.

When using enanthate T levels will start rising within the first 2 hrs post-injection and peak @ 8-12 hrs.

Keep in mind when having blood work done whether peak/trough it is just a snapshot.

Thanks for your reply. So even though my total and free t are a bit high it is sensible to wait more on this protocol right? It seems I dont have some dangerous sides, never had issue with hematocrit hemoglobin, Ive never donated blood as well and can only imagine how smash I would feel after that. Bilirubin is elevated on whatever t levels and before TRT as well. Usually my progesteron and IGF-1 are a bit over the range as well, but havent tested them this time(IGF-1 usually is 250-280 I suspect it my has to do with the cabergoline).
This is my ferritin from end of December last year when iron was again elevated:

Iron	S	30.47	µmol/l	7.20 - 27.70	PHOT
Ferritin	S	202.4	µg/L	30 - 400	ECLIA

IGF I

S

268.4

ng/ml

82 - 243

CLIA

Every time I had checked ferritin it runs between a 100 and 300 on this scale, usually around 180-220. I know too much means inflamation...



But also I must say that I feel a bit like the t is too much - Im a bit nervous, a bit level of anxiety I mean nothing serious but it feels a bit too much. Also errection still not great which I guess is possible to be caused by that as well...

Keep in mind when having blood work done whether peak/trough it is just a snapshot.

I wanted to check how stable my levels are throughout the week, and even though I didnt score the peak exactly at least for stability and injection frequency they seem very stable, right? I mean 100ng/dl difference 24 hours after injection and a few hours before I would say is nothing outside of fluctuation...

Also what do you think of my FT3? 3.0 with range up to 4.4? Some would argue it is suboptimal, also FT4 seems close to top of the range, which I guess means high reverse T3?

 

[ivkonst2017]

@madman what do you think of my thyroid?
My FT3 doesnt seem very optimal, FT4 is at the top of the range. Without testing it I can tell my RT3 is elevated, every time I had invested 40 dollars in this test it was elevated. Some argue it can plug T3 receptors, no consensus in medical community for that. Ive been told that this is due to stomach issues and I need to fix that - well, that seems too general and doesnt help me at all.
Im taking selenium, my iron is definetely not low, vit d3 is not low, maybe sodium is a bit low not sure why, I try to put a lot of salt in my food...