Switching from Cypionate to Enanthate or cream?

[Willyt]

Does propionate require daily or can you inject EOD? I know the half life is short. I thought about it but at that point if I have to do it daily I thought the cream would be easier. Right now I do shallow IM for the cyp. Can you do propionate sub q? I don’t know if I want to do IM daily.

I would definitely say Prop is better suited for daily due to the fast acting T spike. Go subq like others have said because daily shallow IM can be challenging over the course of years.

If it were me, I would try Enanthate (some tolerate it better including myself) on daily basis with subq. Sounds like the anxiety may be coming from that initial burst of cypionate.

Out of curiosity, does your Cypionate contain Benzyl Benzoate on the ingredient list?

 

[FlamingDragon]

I would definitely say Prop is better suited for daily due to the fast acting T spike. Go subq like others have said because daily shallow IM can be challenging over the course of years.

If it were me, I would try Enanthate (some tolerate it better including myself) on daily basis with subq. Sounds like the anxiety may be coming from that initial burst of cypionate.

Out of curiosity, does your Cypionate contain Benzyl Benzoate on the ingredient list?

Yes it has benzyl benzoate 20%
Does enanthate have the same ingredient? Empower brand?

 

[Willyt]

Yes it has benzyl benzoate 20%
Does enanthate have the same ingredient? Empower brand?

No unless they have changed it. Here are the other ingredients in Empower's formulations:

Propionate (100mg/ml): Benzyl Benzoate 15% / Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative
Enanthate (200mg/ml): Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative

A few of us have speculated (including @Gman86) about whether Benzyl Benzoate causes any side effects when injected even in such small amounts.

"Benzyl benzoate is used to treat lice and scabies infestations. This medicine is believed to be absorbed by the lice and mites and to destroy them by acting on their nervous system."

"Benzyl benzoate is an effective and inexpensive topical treatment for human scabies. It has vasodilating and spasmolytic effects and is present in many asthma and whooping cough drugs. It is also used as an excipient in some testosterone-replacement medications (like Nebido) for treating hypogonadism.

Benzyl benzoate is used as a topical acaricide, scabicide, and pediculicide in veterinary hospitals."

 

[FlamingDragon]

They recommend I try the enanthate first give it 6-12 weeks then if I want I can try the cream.
If that doesn’t work I’ll try the Test P
Thanks Everyone I’ll try to update if all is well.

 

[granger]

I forgot to mention, for the first three years on TRT I had all of your symptoms hours after the injection, it turned out to be low ferritin, low iron.

As testosterone peaks, iron is used up in the creation of hemoglobin.

If tomorrow if I forget to take my iron supplements, all of those symptoms come back shortly after taking my Jatenzo, because testosterone peaks in 2 hours.

interesting, never heard of this about the iron esp that it would drop THAT much, or Jatenzo.. perhaps T will help my ferritin get lower! ~400-500 ie 10x too high. tuff to go give blood as first time turned green near the end as low BP although I think im creeping higher than 70/120 I was forever.. but apparently ur body gets used to loosing half a litre and won't go into shock. also I am a bleeder so dont think hemocrit or clot factors are a problem for me, just a guess though. anyhoo

would be cool though if making more blood cells on T was enough to lower me 150 counts on the ferritin lol although I doubt its thats substantial...

for OP you could also try Natesto! my first week or so felt great than dropped off and didn't feel much turned out my Gell wasn't dissolved and had shards of test crystals (never refrigerated 2 bottles same), hopefully I wasn't getting a mega dose and why it felt so strong and close to the 5.5mg a shot.. got my projects going not even thinking about it just did them, if had to draw myself would of been a guy with a six pack and buff(which im not even close to) lol when it was kicking the first couple days. libido + better orgasm AND even was able to get better sleeps. this was after trying hcg that had some similarities but not nearly as strong, plus hcg gave me twitchy muscles and heart palpitations + anxiety.. have a feeling its from too much DHEA have a vague remembrance of taking DHEA in my 20s and having weird sides and think I only took it a couple times as felt bad. near instant so dont think it was high E, possibly just something about hcg as ladies get palps when pregnant. told my lady I was transitioning to a pregnant cis female so no one could tell me I cant walk around barefoot with my belly out or argue with me...

 

[Systemlord]

interesting, never heard of this about the iron esp that it would drop THAT much, or Jatenzo.. perhaps T will help my ferritin get lower!

When not on TRT, I don’t need iron supplements, on TRT I need 140 mg or five 28 mg capsules. If I stop TRT, my ferritin will actually increase more so than on TRT and iron supplements.

 

[FlamingDragon]

No unless they have changed it. Here are the other ingredients in Empower's formulations:

Propionate (100mg/ml): Benzyl Benzoate 15% / Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative
Enanthate (200mg/ml): Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative

A few of us have speculated (including @Gman86) about whether Benzyl Benzoate causes any side effects when injected even in such small amounts.

"Benzyl benzoate is used to treat lice and scabies infestations. This medicine is believed to be absorbed by the lice and mites and to destroy them by acting on their nervous system."

"Benzyl benzoate is an effective and inexpensive topical treatment for human scabies. It has vasodilating and spasmolytic effects and is present in many asthma and whooping cough drugs. It is also used as an excipient in some testosterone-replacement medications (like Nebido) for treating hypogonadism.

Benzyl benzoate is used as a topical acaricide, scabicide, and pediculicide in veterinary hospitals."

Wouldn't this be nice if it were the case just an ester switch and no more anxiety. I can only wish. The only medical studies I could find was from an Testosterone undecanoate.

Anaphylaxis triggered by benzyl benzoate in a preparation of depot testosterone undecanoate - PubMed

We report the first case of an anaphylactic reaction to Reandron 1000 (depot testosterone undecanoate with a castor oil and benzyl benzoate vehicle). While considered to have a favourable safety profile, serious complications such as oil embolism and anaphylaxis can occur. In our patient, skin...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[aneuman]

My doctors didn’t get the memo, I guess I was the guinea pig. I was on benzo’s for 30 years.

I know... aren't we all? my mom was on benzodiazepines for more than 40 years, several times a day. I've been on an off for 30 years as well (started with nitrazepam for sleep)

Doctors prescribe it as candy because they are extremely effective in controlling anxiety in the short term. When it stop working, they just up the dosage and it works again. Then you reach dependency and you are hook for life and cannot live without it, literally.

I've been fortunately that I have been able to quit all psychiatric meds cold turkey without much trouble. The worst for me were SSRIs. I'm never taking lexapro again.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I know... aren't we all? my mom was on benzodiazepines for more than 40 years, several times a day. I've been on an off for 30 years as well (started with nitrazepam for sleep)

Doctors prescribe it as candy because they are extremely effective in controlling anxiety in the short term. When it stop working, they just up the dosage and it works again. Then you reach dependency and you are hook for life and cannot live without it, literally.

I've been fortunately that I have been able to quit all psychiatric meds cold turkey without much trouble. The worst for me were SSRIs. I'm never taking lexapro again.

there is a few people who have no issues stopping. but you never know. there is also people who stop with no issues, but subaequent withdrawals are hell due do brain sensitizing. better to be done for good. there is safer non pharma anxiolytics

 

[granger]

I think likely the folks who have less issues stayed at low dose and long acting form. Ie gives your body few days to adjustable vs hrs. Like valiam stays in your system for a month short altingið lasts 3 days for 100% elininated. Never ever stop on your own not worth the risk.

 

[TLR]

SSRI’s stopped working for me after about 12 years, and anything that increases NE locks my bladder up. I hate taking Clonazepam (or any other drug for that matter), but if I have to choose between anxiety kicking my ass when it’s bad, vs. dealing with the minor side effects and the unknowns I’ll take that….maybe I’m just simple minded. I try to get by with the minimum dose and still take an SSRI just because my doctor insists, but it’s the Clonazepam that holds it at bay. Took Zoloft for 12 years and popped one pill a day and went and kicked ass and never gave it another thought. I SWEAR the generics are not as effective.

 

[Systemlord]

I SWEAR the generics are not as effective.

It’s not so much genetics as it is your bodies adaptation and disabling the medicine from working. Your body is hell bend on going in the direction it’s going, for whatever reason.

 

[TLR]

It’s not so much genetics as it is your bodies adaptation and disabling the medicine from working. Your body is hell bend on going in the direction it’s going, for whatever reason.

Maybe so….I just know Clonazepam works for me with minimal sides and I wouldn’t function half the time without it…I wish that wasn’t the case, but I’ve tried everything else….it seems as though TRT made anxiety worse and I was highly interested in the video talking about the MAO SNP and testosterone’s effects on the SERT…but it’s too late for me….I tried an HCG / Clomid restart for 6 weeks and despite good gonadatropin response my balls only produced a paltry 350 ng/ dl…..

 

[Ryan474]

I also had/have anxiety from Test cypionate, about 24 hours after injection. I also get it from Defy the past 6 years (empower), but have gotten it from many other pharmacies the 10 years prior to that. I react the least to empower vs the others I tried.

The only significant changes I made to reduce the anxiety somewhat to the point where most of the time it is manageable is:

- Do the shots in the morning. I think doing in evening somehow interferes with sleep more. Perhaps immune response or something?

- Do them deep IM into the ventro gluteal muscle. If I do subcue anywhere or IM into the quads or anywhere other than ventro gluteal, the effect is different and usually much less desireable. Dorso Gluteal is OK but not the same as ventro. I don't understand why.

- Other anti anxiety practices not specific to T, like meditation, good sleep, omega 3, etc etc.

I tried enanthate and it was actually worse. More moody and suddenly acne from enanthate. Maybe less anxiety, but the other issues were significant. I originally thought it might be the benzyl benzoate from the cypionate causing the anxiety, but that's unclear. I tend to be sensitive to a lot of drugs/supplements.

I did try cream and gel in the past but had various issues with it. So I'm still on cypionate. I might have to try propionate at some point after hearing from a couple of posters here.

I wish it was more clear why people like us get anxiety from Test injections.

 

[Systemlord]

I tried enanthate and it was actually worse.

The only difference other than the carrier oils and alcohol additive, enanthate and cypionate are very similar except for the 1-2 longer half-life of cypionate.

Both enanthate and cypionate produce an unnatural gradual peak when compared to natural testosterone.

 

[TLR]

I also had/have anxiety from Test cypionate, about 24 hours after injection. I also get it from Defy the past 6 years (empower), but have gotten it from many other pharmacies the 10 years prior to that. I react the least to empower vs the others I tried.

The only significant changes I made to reduce the anxiety somewhat to the point where most of the time it is manageable is:

- Do the shots in the morning. I think doing in evening somehow interferes with sleep more. Perhaps immune response or something?

- Do them deep IM into the ventro gluteal muscle. If I do subcue anywhere or IM into the quads or anywhere other than ventro gluteal, the effect is different and usually much less desireable. Dorso Gluteal is OK but not the same as ventro. I don't understand why.

- Other anti anxiety practices not specific to T, like meditation, good sleep, omega 3, etc etc.

I tried enanthate and it was actually worse. More moody and suddenly acne from enanthate. Maybe less anxiety, but the other issues were significant. I originally thought it might be the benzyl benzoate from the cypionate causing the anxiety, but that's unclear. I tend to be sensitive to a lot of drugs/supplements.

I did try cream and gel in the past but had various issues with it. So I'm still on cypionate. I might have to try propionate at some point after hearing from a couple of posters here.

I wish it was more clear why people like us get anxiety from Test injections.

Same here....I actually felt less (not zero,but less) anxiety and better overall on scrotal cream, with only one tiny problem....my erectile function was noticeably worse on it. Got good levels (700s) from just one click a day but erections were here and there (the lady would have to keep constant stimulation on it and it was just weak)....bumped the dose up one click and it got worse and my levels jumped to 1250 with E2 at 60. I guess I could have kept going up but DHT was also in the high 200s and I don't care to run my numbers that high over the long haul. Erectile function is best at 70-80 mg of TC but I'm still on the Clonazepam and have a weird social anxiety that I never had before starting testosterone.

 

[Ryan474]

I also had/have anxiety from Test cypionate, about 24 hours after injection. I also get it from Defy the past 6 years (empower), but have gotten it from many other pharmacies the 10 years prior to that. I react the least to empower vs the others I tried.

The only significant changes I made to reduce the anxiety somewhat to the point where most of the time it is manageable is:

- Do the shots in the morning. I think doing in evening somehow interferes with sleep more. Perhaps immune response or something?

- Do them deep IM into the ventro gluteal muscle. If I do subcue anywhere or IM into the quads or anywhere other than ventro gluteal, the effect is different and usually much less desireable. Dorso Gluteal is OK but not the same as ventro. I don't understand why.

- Other anti anxiety practices not specific to T, like meditation, good sleep, omega 3, etc etc.

I tried enanthate and it was actually worse. More moody and suddenly acne from enanthate. Maybe less anxiety, but the other issues were significant. I originally thought it might be the benzyl benzoate from the cypionate causing the anxiety, but that's unclear. I tend to be sensitive to a lot of drugs/supplements.

I did try cream and gel in the past but had various issues with it. So I'm still on cypionate. I might have to try propionate at some point after hearing from a couple of posters here.

I wish it was more clear why people like us get anxiety from Test injections.

I forgot to mention low dose saw palmetto once per week has been helpful for the anxiety. I take 1 now brand gelcap in the morning with one of my two tcyp shots. I used to do twice per week but DHT was a little low so settled on once per week. I consulted with John Crisler for a short time years ago and he said to stop taking it altogether because it was toxic. I tried no lies than 10 times the past 15 years, but universally, worsened anxiety and cognition occurs within a few days of skipping a dose and dissipates within 24 hours of taking the saw palmetto dose.

I also have anxiety from scrotal cream. Similar but slightly different than what I feel when skipping saw palmetto. This lines up with what I always thought.. the cause of the anxiety was DHT. I don't think it's quite that simple, but it's a big piece of the puzzle.

 

[Yung4yrs]

Looking for some advice on switching to Cream or to Enanthate?

Been on HRT with Defy for about 8-9 years now. I just can't beat the anxiety that I get after my injection. It's not from the fear of the injection itself, it's the 12-24 hours after the injection. I get major anxiety and panic attacks. After that time period passes I feel great. I have had weekly doses (divided) up too 200mg and as low as 80mg for months. I actually feel best on a higher T dose once I go thru the post injection 24hrs of hell. Something about the injection my body gets really angry about. Im not sure if it's the carrier oils, esters, or stabilizers. I inject 2x a week and for 2 days I basically have to take two Klonipin on those days to get through the day. After that I feel great.

Has anyone seen Anxiety improvement switching to Cream or Enantate?
I have seen people say the cream really puts them on edge, which is a concern but if my issues are esters and carrier oils maybe that's not a concern. I don’t really know at this point. Anyone feel better on Enantate?

Latest Labs for me are
Total T 668
Free 13.3
on 120mg a week.

Thanks

Hi guy. For some folks this reaction happens. I tried to help someone with the same problem on reddit and his results were stellar. Pasting in some info for you.

Yes on sleep apnea test. Regardless get some OTC progesterone cream. We men make fully 1/2 of what women do and it's more by volume/weight than T. Estrogen antagonist, you will sleep better. Been on my nightstand and using every night for 10 years. On T for 21.

Here's an exchange from a diff thread:

Hey listen. I promise won't hurt you. 1/2 hr before bedtime apply 20-40 mg to the sides of your neck. Some will get taken up by the carotid artery and you'll get more "sleepy time" reaction w/the GABA receptors. Are you trying 1000 mg of GABA and 10 mg of melatonin at bedtime as well? Totally good for your health and synergy of getting your brain to go to sleep while your body is getting used to youthful healthy T levels.

Women make about 50 mg of progesterone a day, us half that. A healthy young male makes about 5 mg of T, a woman about 10% of that. If ur progesterone doesn't even register, how do you think ur body is doing w/the T and the estradiol from aromatase, but no P? Good for your health in multiple ways, some not studied at all.

Guy's response:

Cheers again,

Stuff works pretty well, noticed an almost instant calmative and relaxation effect. Fell asleep in bed almost instantly for the first time since starting TRT, still taking some melatonin and will add in the GABA as well.

They really need to start adding this to standard protocols.

Give it a try Flaming. Like I said, it's only gonna help ur health, not hurt you. You might find the Cypionate is fine. You just need all three normal hormones are necessary in balance for YOU to feel "at the top". Best wishes.

Forgot. Easy source. Brand is Source Naturals, 4 oz. jar, Progesterone Cream. Widely available health supplement sources.

 

[Sergel]

No mention of your levels? What do you bloods tell you? Are you running superphysiological levels of T? That will cause anxiety in the long term... In my case, lowering my dose to physiological levels is my key... if I run too hot I will get real anxious (palpitations and all...). But naturally, if I want to feel like superman for a burst of body building... well anxiety is the price to pay... lol You said you lowered to 80mg, I was still anxious at that level... 60 or 70 is my sweet spot to feel relaxed... (depending if I do HCG or not... )... So my general advice for guys struggling with TRT is lower your dose until you feel good...

Your mileage might varry...

 

[FlamingDragon]

Update:
Only on the second week of Enanthate so this means nothing...but so far doing the same dose as I was of Cypionate and Im already able to stop the taking Klonipin. Anxiety has seemed to just disappear. Im going to give it a full 6-8 weeks to see what happens. Needless to say Im really excited if this works. I'll give a proper update when enough time has passed.