Switching from Cypionate to Enanthate or cream?

[FlamingDragon]

Looking for some advice on switching to Cream or to Enanthate?

Been on HRT with Defy for about 8-9 years now. I just can't beat the anxiety that I get after my injection. It's not from the fear of the injection itself, it's the 12-24 hours after the injection. I get major anxiety and panic attacks. After that time period passes I feel great. I have had weekly doses (divided) up too 200mg and as low as 80mg for months. I actually feel best on a higher T dose once I go thru the post injection 24hrs of hell. Something about the injection my body gets really angry about. Im not sure if it's the carrier oils, esters, or stabilizers. I inject 2x a week and for 2 days I basically have to take two Klonipin on those days to get through the day. After that I feel great.

Has anyone seen Anxiety improvement switching to Cream or Enantate?
I have seen people say the cream really puts them on edge, which is a concern but if my issues are esters and carrier oils maybe that's not a concern. I don’t really know at this point. Anyone feel better on Enantate?

Latest Labs for me are
Total T 668
Free 13.3
on 120mg a week.

Thanks

 

[Systemlord]

Anyone feel better on Enantate?

I have tried both enanthate and cypionate, the latter feels more potent while enanthate feels less intense benefits wise. I don’t really know why one has such a dramatic difference.

The ramp up feeling to peak is weaker on enanthate for me.

Now I’m on Jatenzo @ 237 mg twice daily which peaks in 2 hours and feel best on this protocol.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Has anyone seen Anxiety improvement switching to Cream or Enantate?
I have seen people say the cream really puts them on edge, which is a concern but if my issues are esters and carrier oils maybe that's not a concern. I don’t really know at this point.

You can't really go by anyone else's experience to make this decision. I think cream is more likely to offer a qualitatively different experience to cypionate than enanthate would. I can personally tolerate higher levels of free T on cream than on injections without feeling overstimulated. Over time though, you really should try every form of TRT that you can get your hands on, including cream, enanthate, cypionate, propionate, etc. Otherwise, you are leaving options unexplored that could potentially work better for you.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

there is no difference between E and C. i recommend you try daily propionate. i lowered my anxiety and felt better overall

 

[FlamingDragon]

there is no difference between E and C. i recommend you try daily propionate. i lowered my anxiety and felt better overall

Does propionate require daily or can you inject EOD? I know the half life is short. I thought about it but at that point if I have to do it daily I thought the cream would be easier. Right now I do shallow IM for the cyp. Can you do propionate sub q? I don’t know if I want to do IM daily.

 

[FlamingDragon]

You can't really go by anyone else's experience to make this decision. I think cream is more likely to offer a qualitatively different experience to cypionate than enanthate would. I can personally tolerate higher levels of free T on cream than on injections without feeling overstimulated. Over time though, you really should try every form of TRT that you can get your hands on, including cream, enanthate, cypionate, propionate, etc. Otherwise, you are leaving options unexplored that could potentially work better for you.

Yeah I’ve been holding on to the cypionate train for a long time hoping dosing or timing would sort it out. Something just doesn’t work that first 24 hours after my injection whether it’s 20mg or 50mg. After I get thru the first 24 it’s great!
Thanks

 

[FlamingDragon]

I have tried both enanthate and cypionate, the latter feels more potent while enanthate feels less intense benefits wise. I don’t really know why one has such a dramatic difference.

The ramp up feeling to peak is weaker on enanthate for me.

Now I’m on Jatenzo @ 237 mg twice daily which peaks in 2 hours and feel best on this protocol.

Ill look up Jatenzo I do t know anything about it .

 

[Gman86]

Does propionate require daily or can you inject EOD? I know the half life is short. I thought about it but at that point if I have to do it daily I thought the cream would be easier. Right now I do shallow IM for the cyp. Can you do propionate sub q? I don’t know if I want to do IM daily.

There’s a lot of guys that do it EOD and do just fine. I’ve seen anecdotes where some guys purposely do it EOD because it increases their libido more on EOD compared to ED

And yes u can do prop subQ

 

[Systemlord]

Does propionate require daily or can you inject EOD?

Yes, daily injections is ideal for Test prop, but EOD can work.

I’ll look up Jatenzo I do t know anything about it .

It’s only available through retail pharmacies and if insurance isn’t covering it, it can cost up to $3400 per refill. I got Jatenzo covered by insurance by getting a medical exception from my doctor, since other treatment options failed to work, which got it ($4 copay) covered by insurance.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

Does propionate require daily or can you inject EOD? I know the half life is short. I thought about it but at that point if I have to do it daily I thought the cream would be easier. Right now I do shallow IM for the cyp. Can you do propionate sub q? I don’t know if I want to do IM daily.

I do daily subq prop. .3cc. huge difference how I feel. EOD might be an option but you will have pretty low levels in between. which might the what you need. i think your body needs to cycle T up and down and have a 'break'. sustained high levels of T do not match a natural cycle and i think it overstimulates me

 

[FlamingDragon]

At this point Im open to any ideas you guys have. I have my consult tonight.

I should have mentioned in the past I tried pregnenolone from 10mg to 50mg. I watched a video where one doc was saying if you get anxiety from trt you need 100mg of pregnenolone a day. When I tried at 50mg it was at least double the anxiety on day of injection so I can't even imagine 100mg! Plus it bloated me up like a puffer fish. Now I take 10mg or Pregnenolone and 10 of DHEA just to fill the back pathways. That does help a bit but I know for sure I can't take high doses of it.
Also last blood work I had a full thyroid panel done from Defy via Labcorp and the doc said it look awesome.

Now I just need to decide what I want to ask for..
Test Prop
Test Eth
Cream
Just wondering if anyone else out there has beat the anxiety beast switching esters or going to creams.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

1 thing more to mention. are you on daily klonopin? that stuff when used daily will eventually cause tolerance withdrawals. i used it in the past and withdrew....another story but I think that as long you're on it (daily) your anxiety might be purely drug related

 

[Systemlord]

It's not from the fear of the injection itself, it's the 12-24 hours after the injection. I get major anxiety and panic attacks. After that time period passes I feel great.

I forgot to mention, for the first three years on TRT I had all of your symptoms hours after the injection, it turned out to be low ferritin, low iron.

As testosterone peaks, iron is used up in the creation of hemoglobin.

If tomorrow if I forget to take my iron supplements, all of those symptoms come back shortly after taking my Jatenzo, because testosterone peaks in 2 hours.

 

[FlamingDragon]

1 thing more to mention. are you on daily klonopin? that stuff when used daily will eventually cause tolerance withdrawals. i used it in the past and withdrew....another story but I think that as long you're on it (daily) your anxiety might be purely drug related

No just started taking it on the injection days for about two months. Wanting off it asap

 

[FlamingDragon]

1 thing more to mention. are you on daily klonopin? that stuff when used daily will eventually cause tolerance withdrawals. i used it in the past and withdrew....another story but I think that as long you're on it (daily) your anxiety might be purely drug related

I forgot to mention, for the first three years on TRT I had all of your symptoms hours after the injection, it turned out to be low ferritin, low iron.

If tomorrow if I forget to take my iron supplements, all of those symptoms come back.

Actually I have too much iron and Ferritin. I have some genes that make me make a bit too much.
But thanks for the heads up.

 

[aneuman]

I inject 2x a week and for 2 days I basically have to take two Klonipin on those days to get through the day. After that I feel great.

I hear you brother. Same here.

One suggestion. Have you tried SubQ? When I started (6 weeks ago) I started at 80 mg/week, 2x40mg) subQ and did not feel a thing. No anxiety, nothing. Because of the nothingness and my genetic stupidity (I'm homozygote for the STPD gene) I decided, two weeks in, that the treatment "wasn't working" (knowing well it was not enough time, but again, it's a genetic problem with no cure) so I switched to shallow IM, and then the anxiety started.

I'm thinking about "taking it like a man" and hold on with the current protocol (3 x 24mg, shallow IM) for the next 6 weeks and then reconsider subQ again.

Just saying.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

No just started taking it on the injection days for about two months. Wanting off it asap

watch out my friend! withdrawal is absolute hell and can last 1-2 years for some. you never.

 

[aneuman]

watch out my friend! withdrawal is absolute hell and can last 1-2 years for some. you never.

@t_spacemonkey, your advise is solid and should a warning for everyone taking benzodiazepines. I've read horrible stories of withdrawals, including Stevie Nicks, the former singer of Fleetwod Mac, who went through hell because of it.

Having said that, and without trying to persuade anyone to try Klonopin or not, I've been on Clonazepam for many years (5+), quit cold turkey, stayed off (for 2+ years), taken it as needed, again on, off and never had major withdrawal issues.

Now currently using it "on demand" (almost every night), 0.5mg for sleep due to the anxiety caused by (I presume) T.Cyp. which seems to be worse after 1:30 am (don't ask me why, I fall sleep in less than 30 secs, then wake up very anxious at 1:30, take 0.5 mg of Klonopin, and back to sleep until 6:30 am)

But having said that, I know that all benzodiazepines in general (all ---pams, like diazepam, clonazepam, temazepam, lorazepam, etc) are likely to create dependence and when quitting, withdrawal issues, in some cases, depending on the dosage and duration of treatment, life threatening symptoms. Bezodiazepines are not approved for the long treatment of anxiety (for 4 weeks only) but doctors dispense them as candy.

The correct way of quitting a long acting benzodiazepine like clonazepam is to taper until you get to 0.5 or 0.25 mg per day, then switch to an equivalent short acting one, continue taper. All this should be done supervised by a qualified physician.

 

[Systemlord]

Bezodiazepines are not approved for the long treatment

My doctors didn’t get the memo, I guess I was the guinea pig. I was on benzo’s for 30 years.

 

[HSLD]

I prefer Enanthate to Cypionate. That said, my first suggestion would be to inject EOD or daily to see if the smaller spikes make a difference in your anxiety levels.

The only time I've experienced anxiety was when I first started TRT and was injecting once per week.