Tested my son for testosterone

[tareload]

@readalot, I just suggested that my son watch Jordan Peterson.

That was @FunkOdyssey, the ladder of accountability graphic just came to mind based on his comment. I was not directing it at you just something that may help stimulate discussion with your son. It always speaks to me when time for a gut check.

Take care.

 

[tareload]

I understand. We found out as parents we can't determine out kids path as an adult. Like I said, we had him enrolled at The University of Houston in the patrolleum engineering field. One of our family's friends from Argentina works for Exxon and is a computer guy with a PhD and said he could get our kid a job after finishing his degree. He rebelled. So this time we let him choose his path. Our expectation are only that he gets a job. He can change his path anytime he needs but a man need to work and be a bread winner. Your comments are not taken at all negatively and instead take to heart. He wants to drive for something like Amazon, locally or perhaps a Coke and beer route. I personally woud not want to drive a tuck either. I drove a school bus to football games for about 22 years. It sucked. But I was one of the very few coaches that could pass the drug tests and alcohol screens. As you can imagine, my wife and I hope for lot higher degree of success. But at this point we will take anything. Even a mechanic. But thank you so much for the advice.

@readalot, I just suggested that my son watch Jordan Peterson. He wants to be a psychology major but we could see that career in Houston is not going to pay the bills. He still does read a lot about psychology. Thanks!

I wonder what his thoughts are about the trades? Every time I speak with a plumber or electrician they mention a hungry lad can get paid to go to school and be in close to 6 figure territory after 5 years or so. Never verified the information and not my field but sounded like an interesting route given the shortage in those areas. Perhaps someone here can give a survey of the space currently?

Why Blue-Collar Work Can Give Gen Z A Fresh Competitive Advantage

Little to no education debt, low barrier to entry and a great career that stretches their skills: blue collar fields are winning the hearts and minds of Gen Z.

www.forbes.com

 

[BigTex]

I wonder what his thoughts are about the trades? Every time I speak with a plumber or electrician they mention a hungry lad can get paid to go to school and be in close to 6 figure territory after 5 years or so. Never verified the information and not my field but sounded like an interesting route given the shortage in those areas. Perhaps someone here can give a survey of the space currently?

Why Blue-Collar Work Can Give Gen Z A Fresh Competitive Advantage

Little to no education debt, low barrier to entry and a great career that stretches their skills: blue collar fields are winning the hearts and minds of Gen Z.

www.forbes.com

He likes trades. I have been very pro trade in my career in education and pushed trade school hard. Especially now since universities are charging so much and good jobs are hard to find once you graduate. We have a lot of very good trade schools here. In fact, the truck driving school is part of Houston Community College.

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

More effective and less harmful based on what evidence? Not all antidepressant medications are the same. I just can't believe that the majority of those replying (many of whom should know better) seem to be supportive of a 26-year-old starting TRT based on one blood test that was largely incomplete. TRT should be a last resort and monitored by a medical professional. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case here.

Yes I’m glad someone said this. I see so many 20 somethings hopping on trt for the wrong reasons. Maybe it’s just me, but having been harmed by both physicians and the drugs they prescribe in the past, I would be more protective of my child and steer them in a different direction. Trt or any prescription drug is likely a bandaid for someone that age and really should be a last resort. Depression can be caused by many things, and testosterone in the four hundreds isn’t likely to be one of them. Talk therapy is so convenient (and cheaper) these days with a lot of them doing tele-health. Why not consider this first and foremost before throwing a wrench at a growing boys endocrine system when he is still in the prime of his life?

 

[BigTex]

Again, I start taking anabolic steroids at the age of 26. In 1978, I was already doing steroids. I got dianabol from a gym dealer. Never stopped taking them since then. No, this was actually based on 2 blood tests, one almost 10 years ago that confirmed what we found out again. He was diagnosed when he was 17 by a doctor to be testosterone deficient.

All of this therapy you talk about cost money. This 26-year-old is broke, unemployed and was all but living in his car when we ask him to come home. He has spent months in the room we provided for him unwilling to do anything to help himself. My wife is big on psychologist, I am not. I think it is a hoaky field and do not believe it. It took him weeks just to get the testing done and my wife paid for it. FINALLY we are seeing some huge changes and are very happy.

Symptoms of low T that some of us may have forgotten about:

• Reduced sex drive
• Reduced erectile function
• Loss of lean muscle mass
• Feeling very tired all the time (fatigue)
• Obesity (being overweight)
• Symptoms of depression

He has all of them except obesity because he had not eaten for long periods of time and has not eaten here much. We have been encouraging him to eat. At 26 years old you are no longer a boy whose endocrine system is just forming. Even the brain is at full maturity at 26 years old. This is not a child; he is a full-grown man capable of making his own decisions. He came to us for help, and we took charge of offering solutions.

Again, we tried talk therapy, he refuses to go. We are running out of options and made our decision to help instead of crying about it. He knows his T levels have been low since he was a teenager and has wanted to get help many times. Our insurance just didn't cover it and I was not going to give up my UG stuff to a 17-year-old. So, we just offered the help he has been asking for. If we tried steering this adult the other direction, he would just find it on the streets using the cash my wife gives him for gas. I certainly did when I was his age and have never had any problem getting as much as I wanted. I would much rather he have our experienced help than some street rat. I have many more years and knowledge/experience using anabolic steroids than my doctor does, but he writes the scripts. Most long-time bodybuilders have light years of knowledge in this area. We were doing blood test before low T clinics were a figment of our imagination. So, we both feel very comfortable with our decision and have already seen some of the above signs change. He is even talking about looking at girls asses at the gym. If this man is low t and showing symptoms, waiting util he is 40 is not going to solve any of his issues only waste 40 years of his life feeling depressed about being alive. By the way, the normal average for 50–60-year-olds is 400 – 450 ng/dL. As a 65-year-old I felt like crap when mine was 323. Far older than 26 when you should be at your peak.

 

[Gman86]

Of t

I wonder what his thoughts are about the trades? Every time I speak with a plumber or electrician they mention a hungry lad can get paid to go to school and be in close to 6 figure territory after 5 years or so. Never verified the information and not my field but sounded like an interesting route given the shortage in those areas. Perhaps someone here can give a survey of the space currently?

Why Blue-Collar Work Can Give Gen Z A Fresh Competitive Advantage

Little to no education debt, low barrier to entry and a great career that stretches their skills: blue collar fields are winning the hearts and minds of Gen Z.

www.forbes.com

and dont forget the unlimited amount of side work u can get in ur free time if u want it. Huge advantage to being a tradesman over other jobs

 

[TLawyer]

Again, I start taking anabolic steroids at the age of 26. In 1978, I was already doing steroids. I got dianabol from a gym dealer. Never stopped taking them since then. No, this was actually based on 2 blood tests, one almost 10 years ago that confirmed what we found out again. He was diagnosed when he was 17 by a doctor to be testosterone deficient.

All of this therapy you talk about cost money. This 26-year-old is broke, unemployed and was all but living in his car when we ask him to come home. He has spent months in the room we provided for him unwilling to do anything to help himself. My wife is big on psychologist, I am not. I think it is a hoaky field and do not believe it. It took him weeks just to get the testing done and my wife paid for it. FINALLY we are seeing some huge changes and are very happy.

Symptoms of low T that some of us may have forgotten about:

• Reduced sex drive
• Reduced erectile function
• Loss of lean muscle mass
• Feeling very tired all the time (fatigue)
• Obesity (being overweight)
• Symptoms of depression

He has all of them except obesity because he had not eaten for long periods of time and has not eaten here much. We have been encouraging him to eat. At 26 years old you are no longer a boy whose endocrine system is just forming. Even the brain is at full maturity at 26 years old. This is not a child; he is a full-grown man capable of making his own decisions. He came to us for help, and we took charge of offering solutions.

Again, we tried talk therapy, he refuses to go. We are running out of options and made our decision to help instead of crying about it. He knows his T levels have been low since he was a teenager and has wanted to get help many times. Our insurance just didn't cover it and I was not going to give up my UG stuff to a 17-year-old. So, we just offered the help he has been asking for. If we tried steering this adult the other direction, he would just find it on the streets using the cash my wife gives him for gas. I certainly did when I was his age and have never had any problem getting as much as I wanted. I would much rather he have our experienced help than some street rat. I have many more years and knowledge/experience using anabolic steroids than my doctor does, but he writes the scripts. Most long-time bodybuilders have light years of knowledge in this area. We were doing blood test before low T clinics were a figment of our imagination. So, we both feel very comfortable with our decision and have already seen some of the above signs change. He is even talking about looking at girls asses at the gym. If this man is low t and showing symptoms, waiting util he is 40 is not going to solve any of his issues only waste 40 years of his life feeling depressed about being alive. By the way, the normal average for 50–60-year-olds is 400 – 450 ng/dL. As a 65-year-old I felt like crap when mine was 323. Far older than 26 when you should be at your peak.

An initial blood test and consult with Defy is maybe $300-$400. I would get him in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. No offense, but based on what you have written and done with him, I don’t think you do. I hope that he gets better, but your posts seem like they belong more on the bodybuilding sites rather than a site devoted to true TRT. Just my $0.02.

 

[tareload]

An initial blood test and consult with Defy is maybe $300-$400. I would get him in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. No offense, but based on what you have written and done with him, I don’t think you do. I hope that he gets better, but your posts seem like they belong more on the bodybuilding sites rather than a site devoted to true TRT. Just my $0.02.

Started him off with 150mg of test enanthate every 7 days + 250iu of HCG on the 5th and 250iu on the 6 days beofre the dose. I taught him how to do sub-q. We will test again in 3 months but cut the lipid and CMP. and add a few more panels. I started him on enenthate because I have 20ml of 300mg/ml already available. But I am going to swith to cypionate later on.

true TRT

@TLawyer "TRT" clinics who shall not be named start 20 something guys off with similar endogenous levels to @BigTex 's son at even higher weekly doses. Clearly it ain't TRT unless the blood work shows the trough TT at a reasonable level.

Only thing I would adjust if he is going to do it anyway is switch to 75-100 mg/week TC/TE and go from there based on blood work. He could also probably get a boost with hCG monotherapy to test hypothesis that higher TT/fT resolved symptoms.

@BigTex does 80 mg TC every 10 days and he is clearly on therapy in the realm of TRT. I appreciate his stories and contributions and hope he continues to share.

 

[BigTex]

Thanks @readalot. Also on the blood testing, my doctor started me on TRT with the exact same SINGLE blood test I had my son do. I know without a doubt if I took him there Monday, he would list him as testosterone deficient and prescribe the EXACT same dose I did. Yes @readalot, after about 3 months I will have him test again and will drop much of the testing and add a few more areas like LH and FSH and my wife particularly wants to see progesterone levels. I will know in three months whether we need to go up of down on dose.


My doctor started me out on 200mg every 7 days. I told him right there it was way to much for me so he went 150mg ever 10 day. Crap, after 42 years of taking testosterone and years of blood work, I know how well how I react. Heck, I competed on 250mg/wk. So, I tested myself after 2 months I believe and had a 2103 (go figure). I tried to tell him it was too much. So, I immediately made the decision to cut the dose to 100mg ever 10 days and later 80mg ever 10 days. My doctor was not a part of this decision. I did it because of my blood testing showed I was taking way too much. People in my sport know well how to read blood testing analysis and know well how to treat each factor when it comes to using anabolic steroids. We have been doing it for years.

By the way, I don't pay much attention to Ouest or LabCorp’s norm ranges. In the last few years (`2016) they lowered the norms based a request from WHO. Why? The fact that male testosterone levels are falling 2% each year doesn't mean the norms need to be lowered, instead we need to get males hormone levels back to the old normal range. It is unacceptable to accept a new normal when so many males are showing signs of low testosterone levels. Being depressed is not normal and should not accept this as the “new normal. Below are the old "norms." Why have we accepted that lower is better when so many males feel like crap? According to Yale School of Medicine “Testosterone deficiency has a prevalence of 10%-40% among adult males, and 20% among men aged 15-39 year.” Why is this acceptable?

When my doctor first twsted me in 2016 I had a 772 serum testosterone reading from Quest. My doctor told me to not pay any attention to the number and pay more attention to how I felt. I told him I didn't feel great. So he said to go up some on it as long as the rest of my blood work was good. So I pushed it up to 1100 and everything was fine. I was using 750mg of Testosterone Undecanoate ever 4 weeks. I did more testing in 3 months and all we well. At that point I felt pretty damn good.Yet the quest nor range at that time had been dropped from 1100 to: Reference Range: 250-827 ng/dL.

Yes @readalot, I will continue to share. I have a lot of experience to share with other


When my doctor first tested me in 2016 I had a 772 serum testosterone reading from Quest. I was already on self-diagnosed TRT for a few years after I retired from competition. My doctor told me to not pay any attention to the number and pay more attention to how I felt. I told him I didn't feel great. So, he said to go up some on it as long as the rest of my blood work was good. So, I pushed it up to 1100 and everything was fine. I was using 750mg of UG Testosterone Undecanoate ever 4 weeks. I did more testing in 3 months and all we well. At that point I felt pretty damn good. Yet the Quest normal range at that time had been dropped from 1100 to: Reference Range: 250-827 ng/dL.

Yes @readalot, I will continue to share. I have a lot of experience to share with others.
s.

 

[tareload]

add a few more areas like LH and FSH

Should have gotten his LH and FSH before exogenous use of test. On 150 mg/week he will read zero on LH/FSH in 3 months unless the test is bunk.

 

[BigTex]

An initial blood test and consult with Defy is maybe $300-$400. I would get him in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. No offense, but based on what you have written and done with him, I don’t think you do. I hope that he gets better, but your posts seem like they belong more on the bodybuilding sites rather than a site devoted to true TRT. Just my $0.02.

I appreciate your attempt to be helpful but in a real world, one that I have to pay for all of this, I paid $60 for all the test run. I am sure Defy is a great place, but I will not pay $300-$400 for the same advice. Call me a mizer but that is why I don't go to low T clinics. Now why would you say I don't know what I am doing? By saying this you also have said my own doctor doesn't know what he is doing. Bodybuilding sites? That is very insulting. I don't usually frequent those and certainly have not gotten my knowledge from them. I am a highly educate man who certainly know how to read and understand research. None of this bro science was available for the 42+ years I have been self-medicating and doing blood testing on my own. My use and my sons use is well within the TRT scope. I have personally known guys like Dr. John Crisler and been in many discussions with him and others in the business for many years. It is very obvious you know nothing about me.

 

[BigTex]

Should have gotten his LH and FSH before exogenous use of test. On 150 mg/week he will read zero on LH/FSH in 3 months unless the test is bunk.

Total testosterone to me is much more indicative of low testosterone symptoms anyway If that reading is low and you are showing all the classical signs of low T they you need to fix the problem. We did just that. I have never done a LH or FSH test. Once he gets a job, he will be sent to my doctor, and he is on his own with it from there. He starts class at the beginning of November and hopefully will be earning money by December. So, it is highly possible that I will not be doing any more testing. He should be on his feet by then and it will be on him and my doctor that point. But he definitely wants to continue treatment. I do see my doctor in October and will have a consultation with him about this issue while I am there. My son is already a patient there in the past as is my wife. @ReadalotMy wife and I loved being empty nesters and look forward to getting back to our normal life.

As I said, since Monday, we have seen a total turn around with my son. He rebelled against us as a child and wanted nothing to do with exercise because both of us spent so much time doing it as athletes. He was in gyms with my wife when he could barely walk. This week he has been to a gym 3 times this week and is no longer laying in his room listening to this depressing music we hear 24-7.

 

[excelnelg]

Odd.

 

[BigTex]

Here is an interesting study:

Peterson, M.D., Belakovskiy, A., McGrath, R. et al. Testosterone Deficiency, Weakness, and Multimorbidity in Men. Sci Rep 8, 5897 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-018-24347-6

Mark Peterson, Ph.D., M.S., FACSM, author of a study on men under 20 with low testosterone says “men should be concerned about declining total testosterone, even if it has not reached a level to warrant a clinical diagnosis (<300 ng/dL [10.4 nmol/L])." Even young men with lower testosterone levels are more susceptible to having multimorbidity like type 2 diabetes, arthritis, cardiovascular disease, stroke, pulmonary disease, high triglycerides, hypercholesterolemia, hypertension and clinical depression. Peterson went on to say, "We also found a large dose-response relationship between the age-specific low total testosterone and moderate total testosterone levels and multimorbidity, even after adjusting for obesity and muscle strength capacity," Peterson says. "And more importantly, that declining levels could be contributing to a silent decline in overall health and increased risk for chronic disease."



WOW! those are pretty strong statements from someone who is an expert in this field

 

[Gladiator]

You shouldn’t be putting the needle into your sons hand without more tests.
All them people saying good parenting need to take a good hard look at this.

Very disappointing parenting.

 

[Mastodont]

It is clear that Big Tex will find any way possible to justify the route taken, no offense, time will tell if it was the right one, i would not worry too much, since a few months on trt will probably not do anything irreversible. Making statements after a week of T is pretty useless still, anyone experiencing exogenous t for the first time would probably be feeling great. Why cut out the lipids from the next labs? Those symptoms you describe could also be growth hormone deficiency. Also you say the sleep patterns are fucked up, i understand you probably have tried to tell him they might be the cause behind the hormone deficiencies but he refuses to change, might still be worth reminding him that he could also try to fix himself by fixing his habits. If he is into politics, i bet he likes to watch content, i suggest familiarizing him with Andrew Tate to get out of the victim mindset, also to Read Rational male by rollo tomassi or watching his content on youtube. There is plenty of help available for the lost boys generation online.
Also i will say testing LH would have been useful, it is pretty easy to see if the hypogonadism is primary or secondary, especially if you suspect testicular failure, high LH with low-ish T would have confirmed it and made the TRT route a no-brainer.

 

[BigTex]

Galdiator, who are you to judge me? All of us here are doing the same thing. You sound a bit hypocritical. Much rather see my son improved that see him take his life. Went through that with my brother already. Suicides caused by depression are not so fun to deal with, especially when it is your own child.

Westley CJ, Amdur RL, Irwig MS. High Rates of Depression and Depressive Symptoms among Men Referred for Borderline Testosterone Levels. J Sex Med. 2015 Aug;12(8):1753-60. doi: 10.1111/jsm.12937. Epub 2015 Jun 30. PMID: 26129722.

High Rates of Depression and Depressive Symptoms among Men Referred for Borderline Testosterone Levels - PubMed

Researchers at George Washington University near Washington, DC found that men with borderline low testosterone levels are at a greater risk of getting depressive symptoms and developing clinical depression. Dr. Michael S. Irwig and associates collected data from 200 men aged 20 to 77. Their testosterone levels ranged from 200 to 350 ng/dL. A normal testosterone level is in the range of 700 to 900 ng/dL. Health questionnaire scores were used to determine depression. Men with borderline testosterone levels had higher rates of depression (56%) than the general population (23%) that served as controls. When the rates of depression were broken down into age groups, 62% were depressed in their 20’s and 30’s; 65% in their 40’s; 51% in their 50’s and 45% in their in 60's and over.

Mastadont, you are falling in the same category of being hypocritical. It’s good for you but not for another man. Come on. All of us made this decision at one point in time. I made my decision as an athlete many years ago. My son who is a man, made the same decision long before I even saw the results. Imagine me trying to convince him he is wrong. He can sit and have discussion about scientific things you might not even understand. My doctor diagnosed me low T at 320 wat 65 years old with blood work I gave to him. He has been doing this for quite some time. He also wanted to work with me when I was 770 quite a few years ago. He knew I was treating myself with UG products. I honestly told him thanks, I could get testosterone cheaper from my own source. But I listened to his advice and had him look at the blood testing I did on my own every three. You are not a doctor either, but you sure feel comfortable give advice to me. Hoe you have done a better job raising your own kids.

I post this whole thread to create discussion, but it has quickly degenerated into a character assassination by a few who feel self-righteous and have actually made the same decision for themselves. I am a big boy and can defend myself so my feeling are not hurt. No brainer is learing how to treat the problem.

 

[Simbarn]

OK, this guy is 26 years old and had to move back home with Mom and Dad to take a new road in life. He has been very depressed and my wife and I taked him into doing some blood work. He did the following:
Standard Lipid Panel - all was normal even considering he ate before he went and they used fasted norms
Comprehensive Metabolic Panel - All normal
CBC - All normal
Total Testosterone - 467
Estradiol - 24

OK, all is well but I am certainly not happy seeing a 467 total testosterone on a 26 year old, healthy male. I would like to see it closer to the 827 top end at Quest.

Started him off with 150mg of test enanthate every 7 days + 250iu of HCG on the 5th and 250iu on the 6 days beofre the dose. I taught him how to do sub-q. We will test again in 3 months but cut the lipid and CMP. and add a few more panels. I started him on enenthate because I have 20ml of 300mg/ml already available. But I am going to swith to cypionate later on.

Within 24 hours he left his room and went to the gym and over did it. Now he is so sore he can't move. Hopefully this will help some of his depression and get him more actively engaged in making positive changes in his life. We just paid for him to enter truck driving school so he will have a trade and can start making money quickly. He screwed up his college career already wanting to do his own thing. Raising kids this day and age is HARD.

"OK, all is well but I am certainly not happy seeing a 467 total testosterone on a 26 year old, healthy male. I would like to see it closer to the 827 top end at Quest."

Can I ask, what makes you think that a level of 467 is not perfectly healthy for a 26 year old male? Where does it say in the medical literature that all young men need a testosterone level approaching the upper level of the reference range?
How many morning tests did your son do?
Do you fully understand the implications of putting your son onto life long hormone replacement when it may not be necessary?
Depression itself can cause hormone levels to fluctuate. This does not mean depression should be treated with TRT.

Has anything been tried to increase your sons natural production of testosterone?

"I started him on enenthate because I have 20ml of 300mg/ml already available"

Are you saying here that you have self medicated your own son with your own testosterone prescription?
Has he been fully evaluated by an experienced endocrinologist or sexual health physician?

You have initiated treatment on a high dose of 150mgs every 7 days, no wonder he feels good initially! Do you also realise that high doses of Testosterone have the effect of a mood enhancing drug? Do you understand the relationship that testosterone has on dopamine in the brain?

 

[Mastodont]

Galdiator, who are you to judge me? All of us here are doing the same thing. You sound a bit hypocritical. Much rather see my son improved that see him take his life. Went through that with my brother already. Suicides caused by depression are not so fun to deal with, especially when it is your own child.

Westley CJ, Amdur RL, Irwig MS. High Rates of Depression and Depressive Symptoms among Men Referred for Borderline Testosterone Levels. J Sex Med. 2015 Aug;12(8):1753-60. doi: 10.1111/jsm.12937. Epub 2015 Jun 30. PMID: 26129722.

High Rates of Depression and Depressive Symptoms among Men Referred for Borderline Testosterone Levels - PubMed

Researchers at George Washington University near Washington, DC found that men with borderline low testosterone levels are at a greater risk of getting depressive symptoms and developing clinical depression. Dr. Michael S. Irwig and associates collected data from 200 men aged 20 to 77. Their testosterone levels ranged from 200 to 350 ng/dL. A normal testosterone level is in the range of 700 to 900 ng/dL. Health questionnaire scores were used to determine depression. Men with borderline testosterone levels had higher rates of depression (56%) than the general population (23%) that served as controls. When the rates of depression were broken down into age groups, 62% were depressed in their 20’s and 30’s; 65% in their 40’s; 51% in their 50’s and 45% in their in 60's and over.

It is not very surprising that depressed men are low t, but pretty sure in most cases they are not living a life that allows them to reach their potential physically and mentally, testosterone is associated with accomplishment, throw into the mix poor sleep and diet, lack of exercise, porn, addictions, EDCs, hanging around with losers. If permanent symptom resolution is reached with TRT at a young age, that is great and perhaps the testicles were the cause, however it is good to keep in mind in many cases low t is just one of the symptoms.

 

[tareload]

Are you saying here that you have self medicated your own son with your own testosterone prescription?

because I have 20ml of 300mg/ml already available"

@Simbarn wow somehow I don't think he picked up 300 mg/ml at the local pharmacy. LoL!