Supra physiological FT

[Forty2]

These benefits don't stop at the top of the male reference range either, leading some like Dr. Winge and Dr. Nichols to supplement E2 to levels we would consider obscenely high.

Does Dr Nichols give E2 to some of his patients?
If so, how does he determine how much to give when he doesn't run E2 labs and no one knows what the optimal testosterone to E2 ratio is anyway?
Does he give E2 because trans-scrotal testosterone cream raises DHT so much which inhibits the effects of E2?
I wonder if a combined injection plus cream approach would obviate the need for E2 supplementation?

 

[Leeman]

Can’t we all get along?

For me, the value of a public forum is the opportunity to learn from perspectives different from my own or those I favor. I welcome robust debate and intellectual pushback, but personal attacks just derail the conversation. Let's keep the focus on mutual learning and the topic at hand." You all have much to offer and in the end we are all looking for a better life.

Couldn't agree more!

Off Topic;
"Can’t we all just get along". (Rodney King 1992)

That would be nice wouldn’t it?

It seriously hurt to see Mr. King, defenseless and needlessly abused on the street.

In the aftermath of the trial more abuse ensued… To this day, I cannot get the visuals out of my head, of watching an innocent and defenseless truck driver, with a very slight build (Reginald Denny) being forcefully pulled from his truck and abused mercilessly, by spineless thugs, and left to die in the street.

Like cowardly men who abuse women and children, weak minded men, sadly prey on defenseless opportunities.
I have zero tolerance for bullying, whether physically, mentally or emotionally…

RIP Rodney King

Blessings to Reginald Denny who somehow survived

 

[SpazTheCat]

Why does he have his patients on cream take their labs at peak, not both peak and trough?
If their peak is 40 ng/dL, what do you think their trough would be?
Also why do you disagree with him dosing cream twice a day?

I think the level timing is based on this study:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/andr.12357?msockid=2618ee51b55d60c52e65f910b4fd61f6

I’m a scrotal cream user and I disagree with twice daily dosing. I do think there is some value in allowing levels to fall off to a somewhat normal trough. I didn’t feel exactly right until I went to once daily. Some folks, however, will say they feel better with twice daily dosing….

 

[Forty2]

I think the level timing is based on this study:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/andr.12357?msockid=2618ee51b55d60c52e65f910b4fd61f6

I’m a scrotal cream user and I disagree with twice daily dosing. I do think there is some value in allowing levels to fall off to a somewhat normal trough. I didn’t feel exactly right until I went to once daily. Some folks, however, will say they feel better with twice daily dosing….

Thanks.
What is your dose of cream and what are your peak and trough numbers?

 

[madman]

You have a Big F'ing mouth, along with the "virtual credibility" of your "Super Moderator" BS title and the protection of your keyboard in mommy's basement. Don't ever tell a man to "get some balls" while hiding behind your keyboard.

Speaking of the title of "Super Moderator" cough, cough.... You are about THEE WORST Mod I have EVER witnessed. Your communication skills are primitive, undisciplined and spiteful at best. Your judgmental. condemning tactics are that of the Church NO ONE wants to go to. -That frustrating, suffocating feeling ya get from the churches or Members who act like that... Moderator Def: Primary role is to enforce community rules, facilitate orderly conversations...

So sorry I'm not one of your spineless crony's or minions, I'm the guy WITH ENUF BALLS TO SAY TO YOU WHAT MANY OTHERS ARE THINKING... Chew on that before you yell at your mom and kick the dog.

Still sound like I'm "Beating around the bush" keyboard warrior???

"Where does your FT truly sit and I am talking trough here?" I know what my TT, SHBG and FT levels are and have been for the past 10yrs. and still have every Lab. So sit down clown

"Which camp are you in as you clearly seem confused!" I'm not in ANY "camp" you freaking child! I'm an objective onlooker trying to make sense of all the endless theories, contradictions and debates surrounding this topic. I gave FunkOdyssey a Great platform to work with and explain his thoughts, and convictions and he responded like a mature grown up and established some excellent points and credibility with his efforts. -Not just to me. But, to any others who read his well presented views.

"Funny how the same guys that are always running their mouths are the same ones that keep coming back to the forum". "Nothing but F**KING BACK ROUND NOISE on here!" -OH, THE IRONY HERE! Let that sink into your shallow mind...

"We run in a different f**king lane over here champ!" "WE"?? "WE"??? -Mr. "I run solo", not in anyone's camp!?!? -how fitting, you ARE Nothing but F**KING back round noise!! Zip it... PS WTF is "BACK ROUND NOISE"!?!? Sounds kinda inbred to me. -Maybe that's why you're so mad all the time?? ...Just a guess

"Im bringing the creme of the crop here". -is that what uncle Ned said to you?? Just keep that "Back Round" boy and shut up... "Try harder next time!" -I'm sure you've heard that a lot too huh!?

There, there widdo maddy man don't throw a tantrum. Just tryin to make you laugh! LOL

"Just hung yourself here" OH, NO!! NO, NOT THAT!! AH GEE, ANYTHING BUT THAT SIR MADCOW! LOL

This has been tons of fun Madcow. I could do this ALL DAMN DAY! LOL But, I'd much rather you just stay in your own lane, SOLO (so low I can't hear you) and don't waste my time with any more of your useless sarcastic BS. Grow TF up or as you said BOUNCE. You've done enough damage here, go contaminate another forum.

PLEASE fwd this thread to Nelson Vergel so he may begin to witness your abuse of this site and your degradation of his name and credibility

Like I said grow some balls took you long enough!

Could not even spit that off the top of your dome from the get go LMFAO!

You fckn comedian!

Trying to FLEX your weak s**t!

Babbling about protection LMFAO!

Keyboard warrior...NAH!

NAILZZZ!

Nothing to fckn chew on man!

No special privileges so get the fck outta here with that nonsense!

That solo s**t that would be me doing all the leg work you know all the fckn latest reaseecrh/papers, lectures, most up to date s**t on mens'health/HRT!

Almost 10 years of my time invested here what the fck have you contributed?

Let me guess you were playing over on those kiddie forums!

You gonna pull that one side of the story bulls**t

I have helped/guided numerous people on here over the years!

You FCKN HEARD!

You really wanna get me started on here?

All those people that got called out in the past on the forum brought in on themselves they know who they are!

We have some 2 faced FCKS with bad intentions lurking on here!

I have easily taken what I have dished out and like I said there are always people gunning to strike a. nerve it's s**t that happens on forums.

I have never banned let alone. gave any one of the CLOWNS a warning when they tried to degrade or disrespect me...ask any of them on here!

Abuse?

Read all my replies from this thread!

You were the clown that stooped low!

Post #11 you called me out which was a snakey fckn move!

Post #52 do not ever fckn try throwing the mental illness card out there!

Youn should know fckn better!

Dead fckn serious here!

WTF is wrong with me how bout WTF is wrong with you!

FCKN funny eh?

"A madman is someone who is mentally ill, acting completely irrational, or behaving in a wild, reckless, and dangerous way."

HAHAHA!! How fitting




Post # 48 ran your mouth like a fckn child!

I think "Madman" describes you in general. Divorced much? Napoleon syndrome maybe?? Both?? If so, IDK. Just quit taking your sarcastic, fragile Superiority Complex out on anyone who doesn't see it or understand it like you do.


Gonna stoop that low?

You had to go there eh mouthpiece?

Bum move!

You think that weak s**t gonna phase me?

10 years in on the forum same sob story from you guys!

Heard it all before. from those that had bad intentions from the get go.

You're far from the 1st that has tried to call me out on here LMFAO!

Too late for that one!

Dime a dozen club at its finest!

Stick around gonna be a slow burn for you on here!

Bring your A game when it comes to dishing out advice on here!

 

[Phil Goodman]

I don’t mind posters posting like that if it’s equal all across the board and trust me, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed forums where posters were, at times, much worse than what we see here even from Madman. But only if it’s even across the board and all posters are allowed to speak to each other any kind of way they want.


But it was always my thought that this forum had a goal of being different in the aspect that that kind of behavior was frowned upon and that the creators/owners here wanted to create a welcoming, respectful environment. Which again, I have no problem with ball busting and trash talking as long as others can take… and it does make things entertaining. But again I’m not sure that’s the vibe the owner wants to foster.

With that in mind, it’s kind of crazy that a moderator is very regularly talking down to people as if they’re idiots, calling them kids, and just generally acting like anyone who doesn’t agree with him must be retarded. I mean, when new posters show up with questions it’s about a 50/50 chance that he’ll belittle them in the thread and tell them to run along to kiddie forums or all of the other sideways comments he makes.

And it isn’t just new users either…. he does it with people who have been here for years. People who have shown to be very knowledgeable and were always respectful to others. I know he and I have gotten into it a handful of times as well. Which, I have thick skin and have no problem calling him out or reading any of his faux tough guy responses as he lashes out at me. It’s just that it isn’t very conducive to growing the forum. Or at least not growing in the direction I think the owner wants to take it.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

With that in mind, it’s kind of crazy that a moderator is very regularly talking down to people as if they’re idiots, calling them kids, and just generally acting like anyone who doesn’t agree with him must be retarded. I mean, when new posters show up with questions it’s about a 50/50 chance that he’ll belittle them in the thread and tell them to run along to kiddie forums or all of the other sideways comments he makes.

Yes. I've said more than once over the years that I think a gentler, respectful tone would be more effective, like the proverb: you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. He seems pretty set in his ways though.

I may have a touch of stockholm syndrome because I do find him endearing at times. I like to think madman's love language is verbal abuse, and that's actually how he shows that he cares about you. Lol.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Yes. I've said more than once over the years that I think a gentler, respectful tone would be more effective, like the proverb: you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. He seems pretty set in his ways though.

I may have a touch of stockholm syndrome because I do find him endearing at times. I like to think madman's love language is verbal abuse, and that's actually how he shows that he cares about you. Lol.

lol, that’s a good point that I never really thought about. He obviously is passionate and likes to help people, otherwise he wouldn’t spend so much time and energy here. And while I may criticize some aspects of his posting style over the years, I also try to point out all the positives he brings to the board of which there are plenty.

 

[SpazTheCat]

Thanks.
What is your dose of cream and what are your peak and trough numbers?

50mg daily. Just got labs last Thursday. I’ll let you know when they are back.

Last July I was at 100mg daily and the 5 hour peak for that dose was total: 1635 ng/dL and free testosterone of 360 pg/ml. Just kind of crazy at that dose. Not entirely certain I believe it. I reduced the dose when I got those results.

No trough was done as the provider writing the labs doesn’t see the need for that.

 

[Forty2]

Last July I was at 100mg daily and the 5 hour peak for that dose was total: 1635 ng/dL and free testosterone of 360 pg/ml.

They're huge numbers. I don't know how Dr Nichol's patients could feel so great on 200mg per day!
I thought it would be good to know your FT number in the morning before your next application to be sure it’s not too low since testosterone is meant to peak in the early morning.

 

[Leeman]

I don’t mind posters posting like that if it’s equal all across the board and trust me, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed forums where posters were, at times, much worse than what we see here even from Madman. But only if it’s even across the board and all posters are allowed to speak to each other any kind of way they want.


But it was always my thought that this forum had a goal of being different in the aspect that that kind of behavior was frowned upon and that the creators/owners here wanted to create a welcoming, respectful environment. Which again, I have no problem with ball busting and trash talking as long as others can take… and it does make things entertaining. But again I’m not sure that’s the vibe the owner wants to foster.

With that in mind, it’s kind of crazy that a moderator is very regularly talking down to people as if they’re idiots, calling them kids, and just generally acting like anyone who doesn’t agree with him must be retarded. I mean, when new posters show up with questions it’s about a 50/50 chance that he’ll belittle them in the thread and tell them to run along to kiddie forums or all of the other sideways comments he makes.

And it isn’t just new users either…. he does it with people who have been here for years. People who have shown to be very knowledgeable and were always respectful to others. I know he and I have gotten into it a handful of times as well. Which, I have thick skin and have no problem calling him out or reading any of his faux tough guy responses as he lashes out at me. It’s just that it isn’t very conducive to growing the forum. Or at least not growing in the direction I think the owner wants to take it.

“But only if it’s even across the board and all posters are allowed to speak to each other any kind of way they want.” –Yes, that would be nice!! But, most posters here refrain from giving it back, for fear being “Banned” by a “real” Moderator.


“But it was always my thought that this forum had a goal of being different in the aspect that that kind of behavior was frowned upon and that the creators/owners here wanted to create a welcoming, respectful environment. Which again, I have no problem with ball busting and trash talking as long as others can take… and it does make things entertaining. But again I’m not sure that’s the vibe the owner wants to foster.” –I’m not sure the creators/owners really care about the brand or it’s virtual presence anymore. Yes, a lil ball busting is entertaining sometimes! Not so much (entertaining) though when you have one obnoxious, pontificating troll, contaminating so much of the content AND THE VIBE… And seriously making this site more "Kiddie" than the ones he routinely bashes.


“With that in mind, it’s kind of crazy that a moderator is very regularly talking down to people as if they’re idiots, calling them kids, and just generally acting like anyone who doesn’t agree with him must be retarded. I mean, when new posters show up with questions it’s about a 50/50 chance that he’ll belittle them in the thread and tell them to run along to kiddie forums or all of the other sideways comments he makes.” –Couldn’t add a thing to that!!


“It’s just that it isn’t very conducive to growing the forum. Or at least not growing in the direction I think the owner wants to take it.” –Again, I’m not sure the owner even cares anymore. "If it’s views, it must be working!" So, I guess this means the gloves are off and all the rest of the site visitors and Members can safely go FULL LEEMAN on the Madcow Troll… Thank God, it’s about time


“He obviously is passionate and likes to help people, otherwise he wouldn’t spend so much time and energy here.” –Ya, I don’t see that. He enjoys trying to be the center of attention. Posting article after article to create the illusion of notoriety. Not necessarily “Helping people”. “Helping is clearly Not what drives him. He enjoys living in his own virtual reality of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The smaller (mentally and physically) that some people feel inside, (Madcow) the LOUDER they tend to speak. Consequently, the more normal folks turn away (his relationships, and online interactions) or take exception with him, the more sarcastic and demeaning he becomes. Like a child stomping his feet and throwing a widdo temper tantrum.

***His posts over the years clearly reflect a steady increase in Napoleon syndrome. Therefore, “IF” the site owner actually cared, they would have shut this useless behavior down… (So again; Gloves Off)



FunkOdyssey wrote: “I like to think madman's love language is verbal abuse, and that's actually how he shows that he cares about you. Lol.”

You replied: “that’s a good point that I never really thought about. He obviously is passionate and likes to help people” -I gotta wonder; how many guys would give him a free pass out on the streets?!? IN THE REAL WORLD, how many guys after he ran his spineless keyboard warrior mouth to them would say; Hey, I was about to use your face as a wrecking ball. …But, Not today little man, cuz I can tell that's just your Love language!! OR; …But, Not today little man, cuz I can tell you got Passion! LOL!!

Hey! I wonder if the Madcow would volunteer for a dbl blind study to see??

 

[oraldate]

Like I said grow some balls took you long enough!

Could not even spit that off the top of your dome from the get go LMFAO!

You fckn comedian!

Trying to FLEX your weak s**t!

Babbling about protection LMFAO!

Keyboard warrior...NAH!

NAILZZZ!

Nothing to fckn chew on man!

No special privileges so get the fck outta here with that nonsense!

That solo s**t that would be me doing all the leg work you know all the fckn latest reaseecrh/papers, lectures, most up to date s**t on mens'health/HRT!

Almost 10 years of my time invested here what the fck have you contributed?

Let me guess you were playing over on those kiddie forums!

You gonna pull that one side of the story bulls**t

I have helped/guided numerous people on here over the years!

You FCKN HEARD!

You really wanna get me started on here?

All those people that got called out in the past on the forum brought in on themselves they know who they are!

We have some 2 faced FCKS with bad intentions lurking on here!

I have easily taken what I have dished out and like I said there are always people gunning to strike a. nerve it's s**t that happens on forums.

I have never banned let alone. gave any one of the CLOWNS a warning when they tried to degrade or disrespect me...ask any of them on here!

Abuse?

Read all my replies from this thread!

You were the clown that stooped low!

Post #11 you called me out which was a snakey fckn move!

Post #52 do not ever fckn try throwing the mental illness card out there!

Youn should know fckn better!

Dead fckn serious here!

WTF is wrong with me how bout WTF is wrong with you!

FCKN funny eh?



HAHAHA!! How fitting




Post # 48 ran your mouth like a fckn child!

I think "Madman" describes you in general. Divorced much? Napoleon syndrome maybe?? Both?? If so, IDK. Just quit taking your sarcastic, fragile Superiority Complex out on anyone who doesn't see it or understand it like you do.


Gonna stoop that low?

You had to go there eh mouthpiece?

Bum move!

You think that weak s**t gonna phase me?

10 years in on the forum same sob story from you guys!

Heard it all before. from those that had bad intentions from the get go.

You're far from the 1st that has tried to call me out on here LMFAO!

Too late for that one!

Dime a dozen club at its finest!

Stick around gonna be a slow burn for you on here!

Bring your A game when it comes to dishing out advice on here!

Thanks for all your efforts madman. >32k posts and going strong you big softy. Gotta respect, you put in the work. And now you be on Team cFTV we in business homie.

Stay hard!

Supra FT. This thread living up to the title!

Btw, hey Keith!!

 

[Charliebizz]

Why does he have his patients on cream take their labs at peak, not both peak and trough?
If their peak is 40 ng/dL, what do you think their trough would be?
Also why do you disagree with him dosing cream twice a day

As a cream user myself and talking to so many guys about it over the years, they mainly check at peak just to see if you are absorbing well. But I have seen wild differences in how fast the blood levels change from one man to the next. I personally have tested peak at 1200 on cream and then 400 12 hours later. However I feel no different. I know guys that peak at 900 at peak only do am application and feel good 24 hours later and fall to around 300tt. So much more to this then blood levels. Especially in my experience with the cream.

 

[Charliebizz]

They're huge numbers. I don't know how Dr Nichol's patients could feel so great on 200mg per day!
I thought it would be good to know your FT number in the morning before your next application to be sure it’s not too low since testosterone is meant to peak in the early morning.

I need 4 clicks of empowers 250mg/ml just in the am to get to 1200tt. We are all very different.

 

[Charliebizz]

Yes. I've said more than once over the years that I think a gentler, respectful tone would be more effective, like the proverb: you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. He seems pretty set in his ways though.

I may have a touch of stockholm syndrome because I do find him endearing at times. I like to think madman's love language is verbal abuse, and that's actually how he shows that he cares about you. Lol.

Hey @FunkOdyssey I haven't been on the forums for a while. You still using cream? I'm personally thinking about dropping to one application a day just for convenience. But my levels do seem to drop faster then alot of guys that I have talked to. Might be a non issue. But you know how it goes in this game when you feeling alright you are scared to change things up.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I personally have tested peak at 1200 on cream and then 400 12 hours later. However I feel no different. I know guys that peak at 900 at peak only do am application and feel good 24 hours later and fall to around 300tt.

This is exactly what we're talking about in terms of HPTA activity with once daily application. In either of these very common scenarios you describe, an LH test at trough should show a level in at least the low normal range (> 1.5 IU/L). We think this is an important factor in the success of these once daily cream protocols.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Hey @FunkOdyssey I haven't been on the forums for a while. You still using cream?

No, I use test propionate in Miglyol 812, 12-14 mg daily range, 30G 1/2" shallow IM injections, rotating between ventroglutes and quads. I've run a lot of experiments over time and this is my most successful long-term protocol.

I'm personally thinking about dropping to one application a day just for convenience. But my levels do seem to drop faster then alot of guys that I have talked to. Might be a non issue. But you know how it goes in this game when you feeling alright you are scared to change things up.

Yes, you do seem to drop faster than average. You might be a case where twice daily does make more sense. Only one way to find out though.

 

[Charliebizz]

No, I use test propionate in Miglyol 812, 12-14 mg daily range, 30G 1/2" shallow IM injections, rotating between ventroglutes and quads. I've run a lot of experiments over time and this is my most successful long-term protocol.


Yes, you do seem to drop faster than average. You might be a case where twice daily does make more sense. Only one way to find out though.

How did you do with cream. I don't remember off hand.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

How did you do with cream. I don't remember off hand.

I can't tolerate the high DHT, it somehow makes my GERD symptoms go nuts. Confirmed this with pure DHT as well. Otherwise, I had great sexual effects with it and felt good, so it's unfortunate.

 

[Charliebizz]

I can't tolerate the high DHT, it somehow makes my GERD symptoms go nuts. Confirmed this with pure DHT as well. Otherwise, I had great sexual effects with it and felt good, so it's unfortunate.

And you were applying once a day or 2x ?