Supra physiological FT

(remember when those in the know said TRT caused Prostate cancer?? or when they said it caused Cardiovascular disease?)
Practicing TRT like Dr. Ty Vincent IS very likely to cause cardiovascular disease. The TRAVERSE trial that gave TRT a mostly green light for CVD outcomes used androgel. The resulting total testosterone levels of men in that trial was pitifully low, around 400 ng/dL. When you multiply that 5x while inhibiting aromatase, that's a vastly different world of cardiovascular risk.

If that isn't readily apparent, I would recommend study of the physiology involved, to understand the toxic effects of unopposed testosterone on the endothelium.
 
Practicing TRT like Dr. Ty Vincent IS very likely to cause cardiovascular disease. The TRAVERSE trial that gave TRT a mostly green light for CVD outcomes used androgel. The resulting total testosterone levels of men in that trial was pitifully low, around 400 ng/dL. When you multiply that 5x while inhibiting aromatase, that's a vastly different world of cardiovascular risk.

If that isn't readily apparent, I would recommend study of the physiology involved, to understand the toxic effects of unopposed testosterone on the endothelium.
FunkOdyssey, thx for replying!

I’m certainly not advocating Testosterone abuse within the scope of TRT. But, what is abuse really? Can we accurately quantify the threshold in TRT by dosage? No! At this point in time it’s really just a judgement call made by the Physician and the patient.

Let’s keep in mind, that having Low T is not without it’s own dangerous and life threatening risk factors. (TRT is not just about vanity and performance.) But, what is Low T really? Can we accurately quantify that by a #? Or a bogus, unsubstantiated Reference Range? No! Can we accurately quantify Treatment? Again, the answer is no!

If not for symptom mitigation, then why elect to do it at all?

It is very interesting (but, not surprising) that we have Doctors worldwide who cannot agree on the most basic TRT Diagnostics, protocols and treatments… So, a few more video’s posted here is not going to solve this riddle either. Nor, is my abbreviated copy/paste below. But, it is credible and doesn’t take 4hrs to draw it’s conclusion.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Inverse Association between Testosterone Replacement Therapy and Cardiovascular Disease Risk: A Systematic 25-year Review and Meta-Analysis Analysis of Prospective Cohort Studies from 1999 to 2024

Conclusion
This systematic review and meta-analysis of high-quality evidence suggest that testosterone deficiency is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. Conversely, TRT is associated with a reduced risk of cardiovascular events, particularly in men with pre-existing cardiovascular disease or risk factors. TRT was linked to a reduced risk of MACE, improved ejection fraction, and favorable changes in lipid profiles and other cardiovascular risk factors. Despite the relatively large sample size, further long-term studies are needed to confirm these findings and establish optimal dosing and monitoring strategies for TRT in cardiovascular disease prevention.


Several observational studies and meta-analyses have suggested that TRT may have cardio-protective effects, such as improving endothelial function, reducing inflammation, and favorably modulating lipid profiles ([1113]; [18]). Additionally, TRT has been shown to improve exercise capacity, muscle strength, and overall physical function, which could indirectly contribute to cardiovascular risk reduction ([43]; [44]).

On the other hand, few studies have raised concerns about the potential adverse effects of TRT, including an increased risk of venous thromboembolism, polycythemia, and prostate-related complications ([49]; [50]). These concerns have led to ongoing debates and uncertainties regarding the safety and efficacy of TRT in the context of cardiovascular disease prevention.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.06.21.24309326v4.full
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Remember during Covid when Pro-vaxer’s were screaming; “Trust the Science, Trust the Science!” and then a Scientist came out and said; “Trusting the science is the most un-scientific thing you can do”!!! Science is all about questioning everything". –even my above copy/paste should be questioned.

I'm in agreement with you on most of this for sure. But, I'm still completely on the fence about many aspects that some folks (non-professionals) are completely convinced are somehow absolutes, when there are still so many unanswered questions, controversy and debate on literally every aspect of the TRT topic
 
I’m certainly not advocating Testosterone abuse within the scope of TRT. But, what is abuse really? Can we accurately quantify the threshold in TRT by dosage? No! At this point in time it’s really just a judgement call made by the Physician and the patient.

Let’s keep in mind, that having Low T is not without it’s own dangerous and life threatening risk factors. (TRT is not just about vanity and performance.) But, what is Low T really? Can we accurately quantify that by a #? Or a bogus, unsubstantiated Reference Range? No! Can we accurately quantify Treatment? Again, the answer is no!

If not for symptom mitigation, then why elect to do it at all?
I tend to agree with what you've said here, especially health risks posed by low T, symptom mitigation as a goal of treatment, and difficulty identifying the line between therapy and abuse. We can test the logic here though, using extreme examples like 1 gram of testosterone weekly, and find that even we who are loathe to identify particular abuse thresholds can still recognize obvious abuse when we see it. Similarly, I would argue that someone reporting 2,000 ng/dL of total testosterone at trough on a typical long ester protocol like twice weekly, unless their SHBG is exceptionally high, has clearly gone beyond the realm of symptom resolution into the performance enhancement zone.

It is very interesting (but, not surprising) that we have Doctors worldwide who cannot agree on the most basic TRT Diagnostics, protocols and treatments… So, a few more video’s posted here is not going to solve this riddle either. Nor, is my abbreviated copy/paste below. But, it is credible and doesn’t take 4hrs to draw it’s conclusion.

There are certainly many questions that remain open. An example of personal interest: beyond what level of free T does testosterone transition from being cardioprotective or neutral, as indicated in your meta-analysis, to cardiotoxic, as we see in AAS abuse? And how does this vary based on the individual's state of health, hematocrit, blood pressure, % body fat, age, insulin sensitivity / metabolic health, etc?

There is one aspect of the riddle that I believe can be answered conclusively with existing evidence, which is whether it is prudent to inhibit aromatase in men on TRT. You weren't inclined to spend the 4 1/2 hours digesting those videos, but I want you and other readers to benefit from the message, so please see the summaries below.

From Dr. Keith Nichols' presentation:

The Estradiol (E2) Misconception​

The belief that estradiol must be micromanaged during Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how the male body utilizes hormones.

Serum Blood Tests are the Wrong Tool​

One of the most critical points in the lecture is that measuring estradiol via a standard blood draw (serum testing) is practically useless for men.
  • Endocrine vs. Intracrine: Testosterone is an endocrine hormone, meaning it travels through the bloodstream to act on target tissues. In men, estradiol is predominantly an intracrine and paracrine hormone.
  • Local Manufacturing: Tissues like the brain, bones, blood vessels, and fat cells pull testosterone directly from the blood and use the aromatase enzyme to convert it into estradiol locally, strictly for internal use.
  • The "Spillover" Effect: What shows up on a serum estradiol blood test is simply the leftover "spillover" that escaped local tissue metabolism. A "high" blood level does not mean the tissues are drowning in estrogen; it simply reflects that more substrate (testosterone) is available.

The "Sweet Spot" is a Myth​

Many clinics aim for a specific "sweet spot" ratio of testosterone to estradiol. Dr. Nichols argues this is a marketing concept, not biology.
  • Saturable Kinetics: The conversion of testosterone to estradiol follows Michaelis-Menten kinetics, meaning it is limited by the amount of aromatase enzyme available. Once the enzyme is saturated, estradiol production plateaus. It does not rise infinitely to toxic levels.
  • Tissue-Specific Needs: Every tissue has a different threshold requirement for estradiol. A serum ratio that perfectly serves the brain might be inadequate for the vascular system. Because you cannot measure local tissue levels, manipulating the serum ratio disrupts the tissues' ability to self-regulate.

Debunking "High E2" Symptoms​

Symptoms commonly blamed on high estrogen are almost always caused by something else:
  • Acne: Caused by androgens increasing sebum production and bacterial growth, not estradiol. (In fact, estrogen is used in female birth control to treat acne).
  • High Blood Pressure / Anxiety: Estradiol is a vasodilator that increases nitric oxide and relaxes blood vessels. The anxiety and rapid heart rate some men experience when starting TRT are actually driven by testosterone-induced spikes in norepinephrine.
  • Gynecomastia: A rare event driven by specific biological susceptibilities, not purely by an estradiol number. Guidelines do not recommend prophylactic AIs to prevent it.

Why Aromatase Inhibitors (AIs) are Harmful​

When men are given AIs (like Anastrozole) to intentionally crash their estradiol, they actively strip away many of the primary health benefits of TRT.

The Finkelstein Study: Visceral Fat and Insulin Resistance​

Dr. Nichols highlights a landmark study by Finkelstein that isolated the effects of testosterone versus estradiol by giving men TRT with and without an AI.
  • The Fat Gain: The men who took an AI experienced significant increases in visceral fat (intra-abdominal belly fat) and subcutaneous fat, while those who allowed natural aromatization lost fat.
  • The Irony: Visceral fat produces more aromatase enzyme. Men taking AIs to avoid estrogen end up gaining the exact type of fat that causes them to aromatize more heavily, creating a vicious cycle where they feel they "need" the AI more than ever.
  • Metabolic Harm: Estradiol is strictly required to improve insulin sensitivity. Crashing it with an AI puts men at higher risk for cardiovascular disease and metabolic syndrome.

The Serotonin Connection (Why TRT Causes ED in Some Men)​

The most common reason men reach for an AI is because they experience erectile dysfunction (ED), delayed ejaculation, or a loss of libido a few weeks into TRT. They assume "high estrogen" is killing their erections. The real culprit is serotonin.
  • The Brake Pedal for Sex: Normal sexual function requires a balance of excitatory chemicals (dopamine, norepinephrine) and inhibitory chemicals (serotonin, prolactin).
  • The TRT Spike: When testosterone enters the brain, it is converted to estradiol, which in turn increases central serotonin tone. In biologically susceptible men, this serotonin spike pushes them past their inhibitory threshold. The resulting sexual dysfunction is biologically identical to the ED and delayed ejaculation caused by SSRI antidepressants.
  • Why AIs Seem to Work: When a man takes an AI, he crashes his estradiol, which rapidly crashes his serotonin. His erections return, convincing him that "high estrogen" was the problem. However, he has just traded his long-term cardiovascular, metabolic, and bone health for a temporary fix to a serotonin issue.

The Proper Treatment Strategy​

Instead of reaching for an AI when side effects like ED or anxiety hit, the correct medical approach is to:
  1. Wait it out: The central nervous system often adapts to the new neurotransmitter levels after the initial "honeymoon" phase, and side effects resolve naturally.
  2. Lower the TRT Dose: If symptoms persist, slightly lower the testosterone dose. This drops the total hormone burden back into the therapeutic window, resolving the serotonin-induced sexual dysfunction while keeping the vital testosterone-to-estradiol coupling perfectly intact.
Conclusion
Dr. Nichols concludes that the burden of proof is on those who prescribe Aromatase Inhibitors to prove they are necessary, because 90 years of medical evidence shows that TRT works best when normal physiology (including natural estrogen conversion) is left alone. Treat the patient's symptoms, not the lab numbers.


Summary of Dr. Andrew Winge's video:

The Core Message
Men undergoing Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) are often incorrectly prescribed Aromatase Inhibitors (AIs) to lower their estradiol (E2) levels. Maintaining robust estradiol levels is actually critical for male cardiovascular health, and suppressing it can significantly increase long-term health risks.

Key Takeaways​

  • Cardiovascular Mortality: Research from a 2022 atherosclerosis study demonstrates that lower endogenous estradiol levels in men are directly associated with an elevated risk of cardiovascular disease mortality [05:49].
  • Endothelial Health & Nitric Oxide: Higher estradiol levels improve flow-mediated dilation. This allows arteries to release nitric oxide, relax, and remain pliable [20:50]. Conversely, introducing an AI impairs this exact function, making blood vessels stiffer and accelerating aging of the cardiovascular system.
  • Insulin Sensitivity: Dropping estradiol levels even slightly with an AI has been shown to reduce insulin sensitivity in healthy men, which is particularly detrimental for metabolic health and pre-diabetics [25:20].
  • Plaque and Inflammation: Estradiol helps stabilize existing atherosclerotic plaques (preventing the thin-cap ruptures that lead to heart attacks) and lowers pro-inflammatory markers like high-sensitivity CRP and IL-6 [27:10].
  • Lipoprotein(a) Reduction: The speaker shares his personal lab results, noting that purposefully raising his estradiol levels dropped his highly atherogenic Lipoprotein(a) levels by 30%—an effect comparable to expensive PCSK9 inhibitor medications [15:08].
  • The Flaw of Serum Testing: Routine blood tests for serum estradiol are clinically useless for men on TRT. Estradiol is a paracrine hormone, meaning it acts locally within the cell clusters that produce it. Manipulating serum blood levels gives no insight into whether the local tissues actually have adequate estradiol, often leaving tissues deficient [03:31].
 
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I want to also leave a deeper dive into the physiology here to help discourage anyone from playing with aromatase inhibition. From Opus 4.8:

The short version: the "estradiol as shield" framing is mechanistically well-supported, but the cleaner way to state it is that aromatization to estradiol is what makes testosterone's net vascular effect protective, and removing that conversion unmasks a more pro-inflammatory androgenic phenotype. It's less "antidote to a poison" and more "the protective arm and the injurious arm are the same molecule's two metabolic fates."

The protective machinery: estradiol → ERα → eNOS → NO​

Estradiol's vasoprotection runs primarily through endothelial nitric oxide synthase. Estrogen enhances NO production both by increasing eNOS expression (a genomic, estrogen-receptor-dependent effect on gene transcription) and through potent nongenomic activation of eNOS activity, mediated by a subpopulation of ERα localized to caveolae where it sits coupled to eNOS in a functional signaling module. The nongenomic arm is fast — 17β-estradiol causes acute (five-minute) activation of eNOS that is unaffected by transcription blockade but fully inhibited by ER antagonists, requiring ERα and the eNOS protein together. Mechanistically, this requires plasma-membrane ERα coupling to Gαi, with downstream tyrosine kinase/MAPK and Akt signaling driving eNOS phosphorylation. The umbrella point: these genomic and nongenomic processes are what underlie the vasoprotective and atheroprotective characteristics of estrogen. Estradiol also improves HDL quality and functionality, indirectly contributing to atheroprotection on top of the direct endothelial effect. PubMed + 4

So estradiol isn't a passive bystander on the endothelium — it's actively running the dominant vasodilatory/anti-atherogenic program.

Testosterone's two fates, and why aromatization decides the outcome​

Testosterone hits the endothelium three ways: directly via AR, after 5α-reduction to DHT (pure androgen, cannot be aromatized), or after aromatization to estradiol acting on ERα. The decisive evidence that the estradiol branch carries the protection comes from aromatase-inhibition experiments that hold testosterone constant and remove only the estradiol:

The human natural experiment is Lew et al., Circulation Research 2003 — 20 healthy young men, double-blind, randomized to anastrozole or placebo. Estradiol fell from 85.4 to 64.3 pmol/L, and flow-mediated dilation dropped from 6.1% to 3.5% (P=0.034), with no change in endothelium-independent (nitroglycerin) dilation and — critically — no significant changes in lipoproteins, testosterone, DHEA, CRP, or homocysteine. The conclusion was that endogenous estrogens play a direct regulatory role in endothelial function in young healthy men. Because testosterone and lipids didn't move, the FMD loss is attributable specifically to the missing estradiol — the endothelium-dependent machinery degraded the moment you took away the aromatized product. PubMedPubMed

This is corroborated across models. The accompanying editorial framed it directly: two studies supported the hypothesis that aromatization of testosterone to estrogen is required for the maintenance of normal endothelial function and vascular tone in males, with endothelium-dependent vasodilation significantly blunted in male aromatase-knockout (ArKO) mice. In atherosclerosis-prone mice, Nathan et al. 2001 showed the atheroprotective effect of testosterone was fully abrogated by aromatase-inhibitor treatment in LDLr−/− male mice — i.e., block aromatization and testosterone's anti-atherogenic benefit disappears entirely. The molecular step was pinned down in PNAS 2002: testosterone attenuates VCAM-1 expression (the adhesion molecule that initiates monocyte recruitment), but it was less effective in the presence of anastrozole, indicating testosterone inhibits VCAM-1 via conversion to estradiol. AHA Journals + 2

And the endothelium does this conversion locally, not just systemically: male aortic endothelium produces robust estradiol by aromatase conversion of circulating testosterone, requiring functional ERα for maximal estradiol generation — an autocrine/paracrine estradiol supply right at the vessel wall. Tellingly, DHT does the opposite — increasing DHT concentrations decreased aromatase expression and abolished estradiol secretion, because DHT can't feed the aromatase pathway. The current review consensus: testosterone-mediated vascular protection is mediated by both AR and ERα, and conversion of testosterone to estradiol is necessary to preserve endothelial function in males. PubMed Central + 2

How strong is the "shield/antidote" claim specifically?​

The strongest direct support for estradiol buffering an actively injurious androgenic effect — not just being absent — comes from the inflammation work. In human adipocytes, DHT, but not testosterone, significantly enhanced LPS-induced MCP-1, IL-1β, IL-6, and TNF-α; and strikingly, exposure to anastrozole-plus-testosterone increased LPS-induced expression of all these cytokines even more than a hundred-fold. That A/T arm is the key result: take ordinary testosterone, block its aromatization, and you don't just lose a benefit — you convert it into a dramatically pro-inflammatory stimulus, because the androgen now flows down the AR pathway with no estradiol counterweight. The same pattern shows up for the purinergic P2X7 inflammatory receptor, where DHT amplified LPS-induced expression and anastrozole-plus-testosterone reproduced the amplification. On the stiffness side, the non-aromatizable androgen DHT induces arterial stiffening, downregulating GPER and ERα in vascular smooth muscle — actively dismantling estrogen-receptor-mediated protection. nih + 2

So the "shield" idea holds up: estradiol (whether endogenous or aromatized from testosterone) restrains an androgen-receptor-driven inflammatory/stiffening program, and pharmacologically removing it unmasks that program.

Bottom line, tied to the supraphysiologic context​

Putting it against the prior cardiotoxicity discussion: at supraphysiologic testosterone you simultaneously get more substrate for aromatization (higher estradiol, more eNOS-mediated protection) and more androgenic drive. The estradiol is doing real protective work the whole time. Layering an aromatase inhibitor onto supraphysiologic testosterone is therefore mechanistically the worst-of-both-worlds move — you keep the full androgenic load and the polycythemia/lipid/hypertrophy drivers while stripping out the eNOS-mediated, anti-VCAM, HDL-sparing estradiol buffer. That's exactly the configuration (heavy androgen + aggressive AI to "stay dry") that the AAS literature associates with endothelial dysfunction and accelerated atherosclerosis, and it's consistent with why your instinct to preserve rather than suppress estradiol is the cardioprotectively sound one.

The one limitation to flag honestly: the decisive mechanistic evidence is in mice, young eugonadal men, and cell systems at physiologic-to-modest concentrations. Extrapolating the "estradiol shields against supraphysiologic-androgen endothelial toxicity" claim to the AAS-dose range is mechanistically reasonable and consistent with the epidemiology, but it hasn't been tested head-to-head as a controlled supraphysiologic-testosterone ± aromatase-inhibitor endothelial endpoint trial in humans — so it remains inference from convergent pathways rather than direct proof at that dose.
 
Madman
What's your dose and frequency and total free t
Just curious if not ok I understand thanks

It was posted up on an older thread years ago.

150 mg/week (TE or TC) split twice-weekly (75 mg every 3.5 days) strictly sub-q so the swing between peak--->trough is not too extreme.

Hitting a high-end trough TT 900 ng/dl, normal SHBG 32 nmol/L and more importantly a high-end trough cFTV 21.7 ng/dL.

Never have and never would use an AI!
 
I tend to agree with what you've said here, especially health risks posed by low T, symptom mitigation as a goal of treatment, and difficulty identifying the line between therapy and abuse. We can test the logic here though, using extreme examples like 1 gram of testosterone weekly, and find that even we who are loathe to identify particular abuse thresholds can still recognize obvious abuse when we see it. Similarly, I would argue that someone reporting 2,000 ng/dL of total testosterone at trough on a typical long ester protocol like twice weekly, unless their SHBG is exceptionally high, has clearly gone beyond the realm of symptom resolution into the performance enhancement zone.



There are certainly many questions that remain open. An example of personal interest: beyond what level of free T does testosterone transition from being cardioprotective or neutral, as indicated in your meta-analysis, to cardiotoxic, as we see in AAS abuse? And how does this vary based on the individual's state of health, hematocrit, blood pressure, % body fat, age, insulin sensitivity / metabolic health, etc?

There is one aspect of the riddle that I believe can be answered conclusively with existing evidence, which is whether it is prudent to inhibit aromatase in men on TRT. You weren't inclined to spend the 4 1/2 hours digesting those videos, but I want you and other readers to benefit from the message, so please see the summaries below.

From Dr. Keith Nichols' presentation:

The Estradiol (E2) Misconception​

The belief that estradiol must be micromanaged during Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how the male body utilizes hormones.

Serum Blood Tests are the Wrong Tool​

One of the most critical points in the lecture is that measuring estradiol via a standard blood draw (serum testing) is practically useless for men.
  • Endocrine vs. Intracrine: Testosterone is an endocrine hormone, meaning it travels through the bloodstream to act on target tissues. In men, estradiol is predominantly an intracrine and paracrine hormone.
  • Local Manufacturing: Tissues like the brain, bones, blood vessels, and fat cells pull testosterone directly from the blood and use the aromatase enzyme to convert it into estradiol locally, strictly for internal use.
  • The "Spillover" Effect: What shows up on a serum estradiol blood test is simply the leftover "spillover" that escaped local tissue metabolism. A "high" blood level does not mean the tissues are drowning in estrogen; it simply reflects that more substrate (testosterone) is available.

The "Sweet Spot" is a Myth​

Many clinics aim for a specific "sweet spot" ratio of testosterone to estradiol. Dr. Nichols argues this is a marketing concept, not biology.
  • Saturable Kinetics: The conversion of testosterone to estradiol follows Michaelis-Menten kinetics, meaning it is limited by the amount of aromatase enzyme available. Once the enzyme is saturated, estradiol production plateaus. It does not rise infinitely to toxic levels.
  • Tissue-Specific Needs: Every tissue has a different threshold requirement for estradiol. A serum ratio that perfectly serves the brain might be inadequate for the vascular system. Because you cannot measure local tissue levels, manipulating the serum ratio disrupts the tissues' ability to self-regulate.

Debunking "High E2" Symptoms​

Symptoms commonly blamed on high estrogen are almost always caused by something else:
  • Acne: Caused by androgens increasing sebum production and bacterial growth, not estradiol. (In fact, estrogen is used in female birth control to treat acne).
  • High Blood Pressure / Anxiety: Estradiol is a vasodilator that increases nitric oxide and relaxes blood vessels. The anxiety and rapid heart rate some men experience when starting TRT are actually driven by testosterone-induced spikes in norepinephrine.
  • Gynecomastia: A rare event driven by specific biological susceptibilities, not purely by an estradiol number. Guidelines do not recommend prophylactic AIs to prevent it.

Why Aromatase Inhibitors (AIs) are Harmful​

When men are given AIs (like Anastrozole) to intentionally crash their estradiol, they actively strip away many of the primary health benefits of TRT.

The Finkelstein Study: Visceral Fat and Insulin Resistance​

Dr. Nichols highlights a landmark study by Finkelstein that isolated the effects of testosterone versus estradiol by giving men TRT with and without an AI.
  • The Fat Gain: The men who took an AI experienced significant increases in visceral fat (intra-abdominal belly fat) and subcutaneous fat, while those who allowed natural aromatization lost fat.
  • The Irony: Visceral fat produces more aromatase enzyme. Men taking AIs to avoid estrogen end up gaining the exact type of fat that causes them to aromatize more heavily, creating a vicious cycle where they feel they "need" the AI more than ever.
  • Metabolic Harm: Estradiol is strictly required to improve insulin sensitivity. Crashing it with an AI puts men at higher risk for cardiovascular disease and metabolic syndrome.

The Serotonin Connection (Why TRT Causes ED in Some Men)​

The most common reason men reach for an AI is because they experience erectile dysfunction (ED), delayed ejaculation, or a loss of libido a few weeks into TRT. They assume "high estrogen" is killing their erections. The real culprit is serotonin.
  • The Brake Pedal for Sex: Normal sexual function requires a balance of excitatory chemicals (dopamine, norepinephrine) and inhibitory chemicals (serotonin, prolactin).
  • The TRT Spike: When testosterone enters the brain, it is converted to estradiol, which in turn increases central serotonin tone. In biologically susceptible men, this serotonin spike pushes them past their inhibitory threshold. The resulting sexual dysfunction is biologically identical to the ED and delayed ejaculation caused by SSRI antidepressants.
  • Why AIs Seem to Work: When a man takes an AI, he crashes his estradiol, which rapidly crashes his serotonin. His erections return, convincing him that "high estrogen" was the problem. However, he has just traded his long-term cardiovascular, metabolic, and bone health for a temporary fix to a serotonin issue.

The Proper Treatment Strategy​

Instead of reaching for an AI when side effects like ED or anxiety hit, the correct medical approach is to:
  1. Wait it out: The central nervous system often adapts to the new neurotransmitter levels after the initial "honeymoon" phase, and side effects resolve naturally.
  2. Lower the TRT Dose: If symptoms persist, slightly lower the testosterone dose. This drops the total hormone burden back into the therapeutic window, resolving the serotonin-induced sexual dysfunction while keeping the vital testosterone-to-estradiol coupling perfectly intact.
Conclusion
Dr. Nichols concludes that the burden of proof is on those who prescribe Aromatase Inhibitors to prove they are necessary, because 90 years of medical evidence shows that TRT works best when normal physiology (including natural estrogen conversion) is left alone. Treat the patient's symptoms, not the lab numbers.


Summary of Dr. Andrew Winge's video:

The Core Message
Men undergoing Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) are often incorrectly prescribed Aromatase Inhibitors (AIs) to lower their estradiol (E2) levels. Maintaining robust estradiol levels is actually critical for male cardiovascular health, and suppressing it can significantly increase long-term health risks.

Key Takeaways​

  • Cardiovascular Mortality: Research from a 2022 atherosclerosis study demonstrates that lower endogenous estradiol levels in men are directly associated with an elevated risk of cardiovascular disease mortality [05:49].
  • Endothelial Health & Nitric Oxide: Higher estradiol levels improve flow-mediated dilation. This allows arteries to release nitric oxide, relax, and remain pliable [20:50]. Conversely, introducing an AI impairs this exact function, making blood vessels stiffer and accelerating aging of the cardiovascular system.
  • Insulin Sensitivity: Dropping estradiol levels even slightly with an AI has been shown to reduce insulin sensitivity in healthy men, which is particularly detrimental for metabolic health and pre-diabetics [25:20].
  • Plaque and Inflammation: Estradiol helps stabilize existing atherosclerotic plaques (preventing the thin-cap ruptures that lead to heart attacks) and lowers pro-inflammatory markers like high-sensitivity CRP and IL-6 [27:10].
  • Lipoprotein(a) Reduction: The speaker shares his personal lab results, noting that purposefully raising his estradiol levels dropped his highly atherogenic Lipoprotein(a) levels by 30%—an effect comparable to expensive PCSK9 inhibitor medications [15:08].
  • The Flaw of Serum Testing: Routine blood tests for serum estradiol are clinically useless for men on TRT. Estradiol is a paracrine hormone, meaning it acts locally within the cell clusters that produce it. Manipulating serum blood levels gives no insight into whether the local tissues actually have adequate estradiol, often leaving tissues deficient [03:31].


Excellent topic and greatly appreciate your constructive approach!

Not a lot of time to reply at the moment. So, I will concentrate on E2 (Estradiol) thoughts... Estradiol is a vital component of both men and women's health.

I 100% agree with minimal “effective” dose approach with any pharmaceutical protocol.

“Crashed” E2 is the keystone of many of your points. Yes, “crashed” is VERY unhealthy! (Catastrophic)

Balance is the key. (it's Vital) Balance creates optimal and optimal is found somewhere in the middle between two extremes. Remember, "IF" we had Balance in the first place, we would not legitimately be on TRT! Since we didn't have balance and are now on exogenous T, most of us will in fact trade some side effects for others in the process. (it's part of the "Trade Off" and the Benefit Vs. Risk scenario) Though highly individual.

Increased estrogen levels are a natural part of any exogenous testosterone use. (Testosterone is the key element in what produces Estradiol.)
Therefore, IMHO, optimal =‘s balance and balance =‘s said “sweet spot”.

In simple terms, to overcome adverse Low T symptoms, one adds “enough” exogenous T to mitigate symptoms. As T rises, E2 levels naturally rise proportionately, along with its use. For some individuals, who are high converters, (OR those who are over dosing T) E2 can certainly get out of “balance”. (out of the sweet spot) Here is where the use of an AI may be beneficial for the high converters, to properly "manage" their E2 levels, subsequent adverse sides and mitigate possible catastrophic health risks.

(FYI; E2 peaks and troughs along with T. (Lab metrics are only a snapshot of both T and E2) This why learning your personal high/low E2 symptoms (if any) is essential to managing E2 and maintaining an optimal “balance”. (i.e. Sweet spot.) It's Not about a certain #. It's about symptom management and Balance.

While crashing E2 can have catastrophic consequences, so can excess E2.

High E2 can get VERY risky and unhealthy.


The primary health risks of elevated estrogen in males include:

  • Cardiovascular & Metabolic Risks: Associated with higher levels of systemic inflammation, raising the risk of blood clots, stroke, and heart disease. It is also linked to a higher risk of developing Type 2 diabetes. [1, 2, 3]
  • Cancer Risks: Though rare, high estrogen levels are a predisposing factor for male breast cancer and are also linked to an increased risk of prostate cancer. [1, 2]
  • Mood and Energy: Can lead to chronic fatigue, insomnia, and mood changes including irritability and depression. [1, 2, 3]
  • Prostate Health: Excess estrogen is frequently implicated in the development or worsening of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) or an enlarged prostate. [1, 2]
  • Sexual Health & Fertility: Contributes to erectile dysfunction, reduced sex drive, and infertility by disrupting healthy sperm production and motility. [1, 2]
  • Physical Changes: Frequently causes gynecomastia (development of male breast tissue), water retention, and feminine fat distribution (often in the chest and hips) while reducing muscle mass. [1, 2, 3]
IMHO, it is foolish to think one can enter into TRT, presenting MANY detrimental Low T symptoms and be expected to find Complete symptom relief void of ANY adverse reactions or symptoms from the TRT treatment itself. Yet, that's exactly what "Some" folks are trying to sell. Sure, some men "may not" have any issues with E2, High BP or Hct, etc... But, the majority will need some management help "IF" they use enough T to thoroughly mitigate or eliminate their Low T symptoms.

Personally, if I'm going to assume the Risk of any pharmaceutical treatment, It's because I believe the benefit out weighs the risk. I am not willing to assume the risk, for a barely get by pathetic dose, to kinda-sorta minimize my symptoms. I want to feel and act like a man! -the man that God created. Before man poisoned me with synthetics, plastics, Chemicals and toxins.

A rather simplistic common sense approach I agree. Sometimes that is the best approach. I don't believe it's prudent to micro manage every aspect of our lives. How much less for a therapy that worldwide, truly has very few hard and fast rules, boundaries or practices!?!
 
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There's much I agree with again here: the minimal effective dose philosophy (in theory, though I haven't always followed it in practice), the concept of balance or finding an optimal point between extremes, and the idea that high E2 can be problematic. However, the word "catastrophic" was used to describe the risks of high E2, and I would say that overstates the case. I also find a number of issues in the list of high E2 risks as presented.

  • Cardiovascular & Metabolic Risks: Associated with higher levels of systemic inflammation, raising the risk of blood clots, stroke, and heart disease. It is also linked to a higher risk of developing Type 2 diabetes. [1, 2, 3]
  • Cancer Risks: Though rare, high estrogen levels are a predisposing factor for male breast cancer and are also linked to an increased risk of prostate cancer. [1, 2]
  • Mood and Energy: Can lead to chronic fatigue, insomnia, and mood changes including irritability and depression. [1, 2, 3]
  • Prostate Health: Excess estrogen is frequently implicated in the development or worsening of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) or an enlarged prostate. [1, 2]
  • Sexual Health & Fertility: Contributes to erectile dysfunction, reduced sex drive, and infertility by disrupting healthy sperm production and motility. [1, 2]
  • Physical Changes: Frequently causes gynecomastia (development of male breast tissue), water retention, and feminine fat distribution (often in the chest and hips) while reducing muscle mass. [1, 2, 3]
Most of this list is based on confounded observational data where high E2 was a bystander. The type of natural men who have high E2 are generally overweight, obese, inflamed, insulin-resistant w/ metabolic syndrome, pre-diabetic or full-blown diabetic. More adipose tissue = more aromatase. More insulin = more aromatase. The cardiovascular risk, cancer risk, and prostate risks are causally associated with these underlying factors, not the high E2 that comes along for the ride.

The 25 year TRT/CVD review you quoted earlier makes the point. E2 in those men rose right along with their testosterone - no aromatase inhibition, not even in the fat and metabolically unhealthy men (likely a majority of them). If high E2 was as dangerous as your list suggests, that review wouldn't have found a protective effect of therapy. In fact, the RCT and mechanistic evidence points in the opposite direction: estradiol is anti-inflammatory, improves insulin sensitivity, and protects the endothelium. These benefits don't stop at the top of the male reference range either, leading some like Dr. Winge and Dr. Nichols to supplement E2 to levels we would consider obscenely high.

Regarding gyno, which does have a clear causal relationship with E2, a SERM is a much safer and more targeted option. An AI is not the answer, even here.

With mood, energy, sexual symptoms, can high E2 cause problems in some men? I think so. Let's call these estrogenic side effects.

For some individuals, who are high converters, (OR those who are over dosing T) E2 can certainly get out of “balance”. (out of the sweet spot) Here is where the use of an AI may be beneficial for the high converters, to properly "manage" their E2 levels, subsequent adverse sides and possible catastrophic health risks.
Can high aromatizers, or men who are overdosing testosterone, eliminate estrogenic side effects by the careful, judicious use of aromatase inhibitors? I believe in many cases they can. Can they do it safely? No, and this is of crucial importance to understand.

Even when serum E2 levels are only modestly reduced by an aromatase inhibitor, and with serum E2 remaining in the normal range, we see that harm occurs:
  • Lew 2003 (Circulation Research) — 20 healthy men, anastrozole 1 mg vs placebo × 6 weeks. Flow-mediated dilation fell significantly on anastrozole but not placebo, with no change in nitroglycerin-induced (endothelium-independent) dilation — i.e., a specific endothelial effect, not a plumbing artifact. PubMed
  • Gibb 2016 (JCEM), "Aromatase Inhibition Reduces Insulin Sensitivity in Healthy Men" — 17 men, randomized crossover, hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp. Anastrozole suppressed estradiol and modestly raised total T, yet glucose infusion rate fell, indicating reduced insulin sensitivity, which the authors attributed to loss of local estradiol action at skeletal muscle. Oxford Academic
In Gibb, E2 went from ~102 to ~60 pmol/L, that's roughly 28 down to 16 pg/mL. In Lew, ~85 to ~64 pmol/L, which is roughly 23 down to 17 pg/mL. Neither study crashed estradiol, and the resulting E2 levels are associated with good health in normal men. So why did harm occur?

Because serum E2 does not reflect tissue-level E2. This is the point the anti-AI docs will keep hammering, and hammering, and hammering. You think you're safe taking 0.25 mg anastrazole and knocking your serum E2 down from 50 pg/mL to 30 pg/mL, because E2 is still in the normal range. No, you're not safe, because you have no idea what that anastrazole has done to local E2 levels in the brain, in the endothelium, and in other tissues. There is no "just a little bit" with anastrazole that hits the "sweet spot" across all the diverse tissues of the body. When AIs are used in pursuit of balance, imbalance is the only guaranteed result.

Now, I am someone that tries (imperfectly) to prioritize health first, maximal symptom resolution second. For this reason, I always argue that if you can't handle a given dose of testosterone without an AI, that means you can't handle that dose of testosterone, full stop. Someone in this scenario should, if they also prioritize health, reduce the dose of testosterone until estrogenic sides disappear. If incomplete resolution of low T symptoms is the result, so be it. Get leaner, improve your metabolic health, and your capacity to tolerate higher T doses without estrogenic sides will improve.

If you don't prioritize your health, you can feel free to disregard all of this, at least having been properly informed. Unfortunately, patients of doctors like Dr. Ty Vincent are not being informed of the risks they are signing up for.
 
Regarding gyno, which does have a clear causal relationship with E2, a SERM is a much safer and more targeted option. An AI is not the answer, even here.


Can high aromatizers, or men who are overdosing testosterone, eliminate estrogenic side effects by the careful, judicious use of aromatase inhibitors? I believe in many cases they can. Can they do it safely? No, and this is of crucial importance to understand.



Because serum E2 does not reflect tissue-level E2. This is the point the anti-AI docs will keep hammering, and hammering, and hammering. You think you're safe taking 0.25 mg anastrazole and knocking your serum E2 down from 50 pg/mL to 30 pg/ Question about supraphysiological dosages of testosterone mL, because E2 is still in the normal range. No, you're not safe, because you have no idea what that anastrazole has done to local E2 levels in the brain, in the endothelium, and in other tissues. There is no "just a little bit" with anastrazole that hits the "sweet spot" across all the diverse tissues of the body. When AIs are used in pursuit
of balance, imbalance is the only guaranteed result.



If you don't prioritize your health, you can feel free to disregard all of this, at least having been properly informed. Unfortunately, patients of doctors like Dr. Ty Vincent are not being informed of the risks they are signing up for.
"
Regarding gyno, which does have a clear causal relationship with E2, a SERM is a much safer and more targeted option. An AI is not the answer, even here.
Thx man! Totally appreciate your patience and delivery!

I've had some Gyno issues dating back to the 80's on anabolics. Haven't done any anabolics since the late 80's. But, I am certainly effected by high E2 in this regard. Even on TRT, I used to get sensitive at times for sure... Not any in the last 5yrs or so. But, many other unwanted sides from elevated E2.

I would be very interested in hearing about a better way via a SERM. :cool:

"Can high aromatizers, or men who are overdosing testosterone, eliminate estrogenic side effects by the careful, judicious use of aromatase inhibitors? I believe in many cases they can. Can they do it safely? No, and this is of crucial importance to understand."

Are you saying a SERM? Or, simply lowering the dose until all symptoms are eliminated??

"Because serum E2 does not reflect tissue-level E2. This is the point the anti-AI docs will keep hammering, and hammering, and hammering. You think you're safe taking 0.25 mg anastrazole and knocking your serum E2 down from 50 pg/mL to 30 pg/ Question about supraphysiological dosages of testosterone mL, because E2 is still in the normal range. No, you're not safe, because you have no idea what that anastrazole has done to local E2 levels in the brain, in the endothelium, and in other tissues. There is no "just a little bit" with anastrazole that hits the "sweet spot" across all the diverse tissues of the body. When AIs are used in pursuit
of balance, imbalance is the only guaranteed result".

Sounds very reasonable and plausible. Why hasn't any formal guidelines been established on this? Why are all these studies (that certainly sound convincing) Not reflected by AUA, FDA, AMA or ???

"If you don't prioritize your health, you can feel free to disregard all of this, at least having been properly informed. Unfortunately, patients of doctors like Dr. Ty Vincent are not being informed of the risks they are signing up for."

Yes, health IS a priority. It's not going to be very hard for many men to decide between incredibly BAD Low T symptoms and an incredibly shitty life Vs. a TRT regimen that literally makes one feel like a warrior in comparison! If the Low T symptoms are bad enough (Me) life is basically not worth waking up to...
I've been there and it truly can be that bad! So, to some degree, a treatment plan that is barely get by, is not a great trade off!

I tried. I titrated up trying to find the high end threshold and titrated back down trying to find the Sweets pot for Hct and E2. -I never found either, while also mitigating Low T symptoms! I'm still TRYING!! That's why I'm here. Trying to find another avenue or another piece of the puzzle.

But, there are few hard and fast rules, boundaries or TRT practices established and accepted across the board/worldwide! and in many cases, the studies even conflict with each other leading many of the "experts" of the field to completely contradict one another.

So, all debates aside, it still comes back to Risk Vs. Benefit for the individual patient
 
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"

Thx man! Totally appreciate your patience and delivery!

I've had some Gyno issues dating back to the 80's on anabolics. Haven't done any anabolics since the late 80's. But, I am certainly effected by high E2 in this regard. Even on TRT, I used to get sensitive at times for sure... Not any in the last 5yrs or so. But, many other unwanted sides from elevated E2.

I would be very interested in hearing about a better way via a SERM. :cool:

"Can high aromatizers, or men who are overdosing testosterone, eliminate estrogenic side effects by the careful, judicious use of aromatase inhibitors? I believe in many cases they can. Can they do it safely? No, and this is of crucial importance to understand."

Are you saying a SERM? Or, simply lowering the dose until all symptoms are eliminated??

"Because serum E2 does not reflect tissue-level E2. This is the point the anti-AI docs will keep hammering, and hammering, and hammering. You think you're safe taking 0.25 mg anastrazole and knocking your serum E2 down from 50 pg/mL to 30 pg/ Question about supraphysiological dosages of testosterone mL, because E2 is still in the normal range. No, you're not safe, because you have no idea what that anastrazole has done to local E2 levels in the brain, in the endothelium, and in other tissues. There is no "just a little bit" with anastrazole that hits the "sweet spot" across all the diverse tissues of the body. When AIs are used in pursuit
of balance, imbalance is the only guaranteed result".

Sounds very reasonable and plausible. Why hasn't any formal guidelines been established on this? Why are all these studies (that certainly sound convincing) Not reflected by AUA, FDA, AMA or ???

"If you don't prioritize your health, you can feel free to disregard all of this, at least having been properly informed. Unfortunately, patients of doctors like Dr. Ty Vincent are not being informed of the risks they are signing up for."

Yes, health IS a priority. It's going to be very hard for many men to decide between incredibly BAD Low T symptoms and an incredibly shitty life and a TRT regimen that literally makes one feel like a warrior in comparison! If the Low T symptoms are bad enough (Me) life is basically not worth waking up to...
I've been there and it truly can be that bad! So, to some degree, a treatment plan that is barely get by, is not a great trade off!

I tried. I titrated up trying to find the high end threshold and titrated back down trying to find the Sweets pot for Hct and E2. -I never found either, while also mitigating Low T symptoms! I'm still TRYING!! That's why I'm here. Trying to find another avenue or another piece of the puzzle.

But, there are few hard and fast rules, boundaries or TRT practices established and accepted across the board/worldwide! In many cases, studies even conflict with each other
If you're concerned mainly about gyno symptoms related to E2, perhaps a transdermal tamoxifen cream/gel would be a better choice than taking a nolvadex pill. What do you think?
 
If you're concerned mainly about gyno symptoms related to E2, perhaps a transdermal tamoxifen cream/gel would be a better choice than taking a nolvadex pill. What do you think?
Yes, based on the effects of both, I would agree with the notion for someone experiencing on going Gyno issues. I only used that as an example of my body's established genetic aromatization tenancies.

I don't have any gyno issues anymore. However, I am Def a high converter and based on my history, would most def have gyno issues if I bumped my dosage up. When I had Cyp that was consistent and out of a vial, I had E2 management locked down and I dosed .25 as needed.

**my E2 window was extremely SMALL! 20-30pg/ml -anything north or south produced noticeable and neg effects.

Using pharmaceutical grade Cyp, I used to get "some" sensitivity on TRT dosages at times 5-7 yrs ago. Now, using LTC's compounded Franken T, I don't get ANY sensitivity ever... I also do not feel as good over all either.

Presently, my E2 issues stem from all the other side effects of High E2. (-everything but, nipple sensitivity) "IF" I don't manage with Anastrozole approx .25mg every 7-10 days, I will eventually (sloooooooowly) begin to have High E2 symp's...

The symptoms are far less severe these days, but very insidious and sneak up on me. I've Tried to wean off the AI several times and it ALWAYS ends up the same. Even lately in fact, I've done pretty well on .5 mg every 14 days (instead of micro managing with .25mg's as needed) But, low and behold, eventually if I stretch out my AI anymore; No more night or morning wood, softer erections, lower libido, slight anxiety -slightly obsessive thoughts and not feeling at peace, Resting Hr begins to elevate, peeing less, especially @ night, rings fitting tighter, etc...

Then I take .5mg's and within 1-2 days BAM!! Night and Morning wood again! :cool: As well as mitigation of the other symp's. **Many of the other symp's "COULD BE" subjective in nature. But, you can't subjectively create Night and Morning wood! and this happens absolutely predictably, almost like clockwork.

I am presently well under 200mg P/wk. Frequency 3X p/wk subQ.

Will watch your above vid later today. THX!!
 
I've had some Gyno issues dating back to the 80's on anabolics. Haven't done any anabolics since the late 80's. But, I am certainly effected by high E2 in this regard. Even on TRT, I used to get sensitive at times for sure... Not any in the last 5yrs or so. But, many other unwanted sides from elevated E2.

I would be very interested in hearing about a better way via a SERM.
SERMs are safer because they can somewhat selectively target breast tissue while largely maintaining estradiol's vascular, metabolic and bone protection, in contrast to an AI. It's still not the ideal solution, given the polypharmacy and some additional adverse effects. The ideal solution, if you have no other estrogenic side effect except gyno, would honestly be surgical removal of the breast tissue. If you do have other estrogenic sides, you're back to changing the testosterone protocol as your most sustainable and healthful option.

Sounds very reasonable and plausible. Why hasn't any formal guidelines been established on this? Why are all these studies (that certainly sound convincing) Not reflected by AUA, FDA, AMA or ???
Formal guidelines have been established, including the AUA Testosterone Deficiency Guideline, the Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guideline, and the EAU/BSSM guidelines. Not one of them endorses the use of aromatase inhibitors in men on TRT. The guidelines are evidence-based, and RCTs that demonstrate an improvement in any hard endpoint by combining an AI with TRT don't exist, so AIs cannot be recommended.

By contrast, at least 100 RCTs have studied TRT without an aromatase inhibitor. Every benefit you can cite for TRT: libido, erectile function, improved body composition, better glycemic control, improved bone mineral density, were all demonstrated in the context of intact aromatization.

AIs are not approved for treatment of male hypogonadism, so any use would be off-label, non-standard care, and in violation of all aforementioned guidelines.

I tried. I titrated up trying to find the high end threshold and titrated back down trying to find the Sweets pot for Hct and E2. -I never found either, while also mitigating Low T symptoms! I'm still TRYING!! That's why I'm here. Trying to find another avenue or another piece of the puzzle.
I would encourage you to create a new thread that lays out your whole story, in terms of relevant medical history, health parameters, labs, and every protocol you've tried and what the results were, so forum members can help you troubleshoot.
 
Interesting and I especially agree with his last statement. ("There's a lot of men out there who are on TRT, that don't really need to be on it"...)

I was in the low to mid 300's with ALL the typical Low T symptoms over 20yrs ago! Couldn't find a Doc to prescribe back then and I lived a horribly piss poor existence for about 10 yrs. Until I found someone who would prescribe. ...By then, my TT #'s were well below 200!! (**whether we use TT or FT #'s my Symptoms were absolutely irrefutable!)

Bear in mind, I "could have" went Black Market at any time back then and even today. I didn't then and I haven't yet. But, with piss poor clinicians and Wild West protocols, I am seriously considering it
 
Interesting and I especially agree with his last statement. ("There's a lot of men out there who are on TRT, that don't really need to be on it"...)

I was in the low to mid 300's with ALL the typical Low T symptoms over 20yrs ago! Couldn't find a Doc to prescribe back then and I lived a horribly piss poor existence for about 10 yrs. Until I found someone who would prescribe. ...By then, my TT #'s were well below 200!! (**whether we use TT or FT #'s my Symptoms were absolutely irrefutable!)

Bear in mind, I "could have" went Black Market at any time back then and even today. I didn't then and I haven't yet. But, with piss poor clinicians and Wild West protocols, I am seriously considering it
 
AMEN!!

While on TRT, we're not talking about our "naturally" produced levels anymore. Exogenous elements can completely change the entire dynamics. Yet, folks continue to hold to unsubstantiated Ref Ranges that are NOT even based on true Hypogonadal men on TRT! (much less, specific age groups, etc...)

I like the point of true TRT patients probably needing MORE T and thus a higher FT level to "Feel" optimum. I like how he puts emphasis on "Feeling". Because too many guys are being brainwashed into simply following #'s. With symptoms or symptom mitigation be damned.

I like how he explains the limit or saturation point for optimization or feeling good. This is a great point.

I like how he explains how beyond the saturation point, will continue to build strength and muscle. But, not make one "feel" any better.

Now, we just gotta find reliable test, with credible #'s to base individual saturation points on. Rather than randomly, asserting FT should be X because someone thinks or say's so...

Thx for the vid!
 
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Something to keep in mind with Dr Nichols: the vast majority of his patients are on cream and they'll be having labs taken at peak. Remember this when you hear him talk about free T ranges where he sees guys feeling good. The numbers are still crazy, and 99% of TRT practitioners would disagree with them, but 40+ ng/dL as a momentary spike on cream versus 40+ ng/dL at trough on injections are a world apart.
 
I agree with some of the ideas with regard to men feeling better at higher levels, and I’d also say that our “normal” ranges are only normal or average in a population that is unhealthy overall and becoming increasingly unhealthy. That’s why the top of the range continues to drop. So from that perspective yeah, it’s likely that men will feel best towards the top of the range or slightly above it.

However, I wish he would share the studies he refers to instead of just saying “there are lots of studies that show men on trt need higher levels than they would produce naturally”. Not to say he’s wrong but I’d like to see what evidence he is using to make that case. It’s quite possible that the reason for that isn’t due to exogenous testosterone acting differently, but rather, again, the fact that our population is unhealthy and bombarded with chemicals which prevents us from hitting our optimal levels.

The point I think he is clearly wrong on, is that most of the feel good effects come from estrogen. Testosterone very clearly and directly impacts dopamine and results in improved well-being, motivation, etc. Sure estrogen has its place, but it’s dishonest to attribute the majority of well-being improvements to estrogen. If that is the case, then why do biological females see such a huge boost from supplementing testosterone. Whether they’re trans or females just trying to increase test, it is very clear that testosterone plays a huge role in improving mood and other aspects of life.

He also downplays the negatives by constantly saying “you’ll feel no better” and if the reward is more muscle and the risk is simply “no further improvement in mood”. It’s quite possible that a patient will feel WORSE when going past the sweet spot, and it’s also likely they’ll increase their risk of other negative side effects like elevated hematocrit, anxiety, worsened sleep(which affects tons of things), and many others. And on a related note, it isn’t
just a case of saturating all receptors and that’s the end of the story. Maintaining levels at or slightly above the range won’t likely result in meaningful down regulation of androgen receptors, but the higher you go the more likely your body will down regulate them. And this applies to dopamine as well… your body will adapt and start down-regulating if you push it too high via testosterone, drug use, etc. Applies to estrogen as well. If the receptors are constantly saturated and causing what the body considers unwanted affects it will down-regulate. So again… it isn’t a simple as “no further improvement” or “saturation is the end of the story”. Overshooting the mark will result in negative adaptions and the further you overshoot it the more likely it is your body will experience them.
 

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