Pregnenolone makes high dose Testosterone tolerable

[Nelson Vergel]

@Nelson Vergel, have you climbed out of your funk? Looking back, any thoughts on how much TRT has contributed to it? I am particularly curious what role you think hCG has played, if any. Do you think being off it was problematic for you? Or, a non-factor?

I restarted after a few weeks off and I am experiencing terrible acne. As documented in some of my previous posts, I struggle to nail down what my subjective experience on hCG is. If I could answer that, it might be easier to justify the hassles…

I am definitely feeling better. I think several factors played into my funk. I stopped hCG due to a supply issue and started oxandrolone plus 150 mg per week of testosterone enanthate. After two weeks I noticed increased irritability and lack of motivation. I really think DHT analogs like oxandrolone screw up with my 5 alpha reductase that affect my allopregnanolone levels (too bad there is no commercial allopregnanolone tests).

TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones- Cause of Low Mood and Anxiety?

In this video dr Mark Gordon, starting at 9min, explains how using good level of TRT can "burn" 5 alpha reductase enzyme, that beside being responsible for converting Test into DHT, it is also responsible for converting Progesterone into Allopregnanolone in the brain. Throughout the years on...

www.excelmale.com

I stopped the oxandrolone and the injections and decided to try hydrogel testosterone cream from Empower on the scrotum. That made my libido go up for the first two weeks. I felt OK but still edgy and with low motivation. I was able to attain high Total and Free T with it.

I added 100 mg of pregnenolone every night and started feeling better around 3-4 days after. My pregnenolone went from nil to 95 mg/dL but it needs to be a bit more. Pregnenolone at that oral dose did not increase my suppressed progesterone. Pregnenolone is definitely helping me sleep more deeply.

My doctor then suggested Trintellix low dose at 5 mg per day. That made me feel very good 4 days later along with the T cream and pregnenolone. I have a strong motivation again and I am more present in conversations with people. My libido remains high.

I stopped the cream and went back to 100 mg of testosterone enanthate plus 500 IU hCG, pregnenolone and Trintellix. I think this is where I am going to stay. I may bring progesterone low dose and/or increase pregnenolone dose after getting results from this panel.

Hormone Panel for Men on TRT- Comprehensive

This hormone panel for men on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) contains upstream and downstream hormones to testosterone. TRT has been shown to decrease upstream hormones like pregnenolone and progesterone, and slightly decrease DHEA. Downstream ho

www.discountedlabs.com

It had been a long time since I experimented with anything.

Stopping hCG may have started the low mood period. I am 100% sure that oxandrolone is not the drug for me also.

 

[Gman86]

I am definitely feeling better. I think several factors played into my funk. I stopped hCG due to a supply issue and started oxandrolone plus 150 mg per week of testosterone enanthate. After two weeks I noticed increased irritability and lack of motivation. I really think DHT analogs like oxandrolone screw up with my 5 alpha reductase that affect my allopregnanolone levels (too bad there is no commercial allopregnanolone tests).

TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones- Cause of Low Mood and Anxiety?

In this video dr Mark Gordon, starting at 9min, explains how using good level of TRT can "burn" 5 alpha reductase enzyme, that beside being responsible for converting Test into DHT, it is also responsible for converting Progesterone into Allopregnanolone in the brain. Throughout the years on...

www.excelmale.com

I stopped the oxandrolone and the injections and decided to try hydrogel testosterone cream from Empower on the scrotum. That made my libido go up for the first two weeks. I felt OK but still edgy and with low motivation. I was able to attain high Total and Free T with it.

I added 100 mg of pregnenolone every night and started feeling better around 3-4 days after. My pregnenolone went from nil to 95 mg/dL but it needs to be a bit more. Pregnenolone at that oral dose did not increase my suppressed progesterone. Pregnenolone is definitely helping me sleep more deeply.

My doctor then suggested Trintellix low dose at 5 mg per day. That made me feel very good 4 days later along with the T cream and pregnenolone. I have a strong motivation again and I am more present in conversations with people. My libido remains high.

I stopped the cream and went back to 100 mg of testosterone enanthate plus 500 IU hCG, pregnenolone and Trintellix. I think this is where I am going to stay. I may bring progesterone low dose and/or increase pregnenolone dose after getting results from this panel.

Hormone Panel for Men on TRT- Comprehensive

This hormone panel for men on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) contains upstream and downstream hormones to testosterone. TRT has been shown to decrease upstream hormones like pregnenolone and progesterone, and slightly decrease DHEA. Downstream ho

www.discountedlabs.com

It had been a long time since I experimented with anything.

Stopping hCG may have started the low mood period. I am 100% sure that oxandrolone is not the drug for me also.

What was ur protocol that u ran for years? 100mg/ week test with 1000iu’s HCG/ week, or 150mg/ week test and 1000iu’s HCG/ week?

What dose of Oxandrolone were u using per day?

I recently got done with an Oxandrolone experiment myself, and I basically came to the same conclusion. I felt that I possibly felt worse on it, and didn’t like how it lowered my SHBG from 39 to 11 on only 15mg/ day, and I just didn’t get any noticeable benefits from it to justify the cost of using it. It didn’t effect my lipids that bad. HDL went from 60’s to 40’s. Which obv isn’t great, but I would of been fine with that if I noticed benefits from it that were worth it to me. I was under the assumption that pretty much everyone that tried Oxandrolone liked how it made them feel. Wasn’t aware of any anecdotes of guys feeling worse on it, prior to trying it. Apparently it’s not super uncommon tho. Here’s a thread on T nation that I came across where a couple guys talk about feeling a lot better once they discontinued using it. Specifically the user bkb333. Here’s the thread if u want to check it out

Realistic TRT Recomp Progress

Not quite, but I fully endorse you exaggerating to keep guys and gals from damaging themselves! Results can be found here:

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Gman86]

@Nelson Vergel also, what was ur reason for experimenting with oxandrolone? Just for the anabolic, visceral fat and recovery properties, or were u interested in seeing if it improved areas like mood and/ or sexual function? Or possibly it’s SHBG lowering effects?

 

[Vince]

I guess it is a good thing, however I cannot tolerate melatonin

I actually supplement with 100 mg plus, of melatonin throughout the day.

My 42-year-old son can only tolerate 60 mg throughout the day.

 

[Charliebizz]

This is how I felt on the cream as well. In theory is seems easier and more practical, but it was the exact opposite for me. I inject EOD, and that is waaaayyyy more practical and easy for me than cream was. I ended up hating to have to apply the cream in the morning, wait a little for it to dry, then obv worry about activities ur going to do a few hours after, like sex or swimming, or anything where ur gonna be sweating a lot, and then having to worry about repeating this whole process over again later in the day, usually while at work. Idk why I didn’t think of all these cons prior to starting. Guess I got caught up in the hype. Either way, it’s soooo much easier to just take 5 mins in the morning EOD to inject and be done and not have to worry about anything

I agree and to add to it I have 2 small children. One time I applied to to shoulders went swimming like 5-6 hours later and my shoulders were all greasy. I'm not sure if that means any of the t was left on my skin but not a chance I was willing to take anymore. I even thought about trying natesto. But that sounds super inconvenient. Injections are so simple I do 3x in the delt. Never have any issues at all. Not even a pinch lol

 

[Gman86]

I agree and to add to it I have 2 small children. One time I applied to to shoulders went swimming like 5-6 hours later and my shoulders were all greasy. I'm not sure if that means any of the t was left on my skin but not a chance I was willing to take anymore. I even thought about trying natesto. But that sounds super inconvenient. Injections are so simple I do 3x in the delt. Never have any issues at all. Not even a pinch lol

Ya same, I didn’t really realize how easy and convenient injections EOD had been for me until I tried the cream 2x/day. Really made me appreciate how easy and convenient injections once per day, EOD, had been, and still are

 

[Charliebizz]

This is anecdotal, but I’ve undergone cortisol replacement therapy and am actually still in a small dose of it that I’d been weening off over time. Also trying to pregnenolone cream and pill combo since last week. The cream in my case causes most of the same feelings and symptoms I get when I’m supplementing cortisol, which is actually why I’m having to change my timing of taking it because my sleep’s going to hell. Day one and I felt tired after, but soon after that I mostly felt energized. In general I feel very similarly and have telling symptoms in myself while on it when I was taking higher dose cortisol, both for better and worse.

Mine has been historically low after finasteride, so it might not affect others that way if theirs is low for other reasons. For me though, it’s felt and been similar symptomatically, though more of the positive things than the negative.

How low is your cortisol?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

@Nelson Vergel also, what was ur reason for experimenting with oxandrolone? Just for the anabolic, visceral fat and recovery properties, or were u interested in seeing if it improved areas like mood and/ or sexual function? Or possibly it’s SHBG lowering effects?

You got the two reasons: Just for the anabolic & for visceral fat reduction.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

What was ur protocol that u ran for years? 100mg/ week test with 1000iu’s HCG/ week, or 150mg/ week test and 1000iu’s HCG/ week?

What dose of Oxandrolone were u using per day?

I fluctuate between 100-150 mg per week of testosterone cypionate or enanthate. 500 IU hCG twice per week has been my protocol for testicular atrophy. Oxandrolone low dose at 20 mg/day, the dose used in HIV studies and a dose that does not screw up HDL too much for me.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I was under the assumption that pretty much everyone that tried Oxandrolone liked how it made them feel. Wasn’t aware of any anecdotes of guys feeling worse on it, prior to trying it. Apparently it’s not super uncommon tho. Here’s a thread on T nation that I came across where a couple guys talk about feeling a lot better once they discontinued using it.

I think oxandrolone is a good drug. I wish I could take it.

I also tried stanozolol (another DHT analog) to reduce my visceral fat and I became very short tempered.

This is a new thought: What would happen if you took oxandrolone 20 mg/day (+ TRT) with pregnenolone 100 mg per day plus progesterone? Would the low mood effect be prevented? Or may be just bring in hCG 500 IU EOD. Would allopregnanolone be protected from a sharp decrease? Just a hypothesis worth exploring.

 

[Gman86]

I fluctuate between 100-150 mg per week of testosterone cypionate or enanthate. 500 IU hCG twice per week has been my protocol for testicular atrophy. Oxandrolone low dose at 20 mg/day, the dose used in HIV studies and a dose that does not screw up HDL too much for me.

Do u have ur SHBG and lipid labs from before and during ur Oxandrolone experiment? Here is my SHBG and lipids while on 210mg of test/ week only during my 1/25/21 labs, compared to my current labs on the left while on 175mg test/ week, 100mg nandrolone/ week, 15mg Oxandrolone/ day, and 3iu’s HGH everyday upon waking.

And here are some lab results from the bkb333 guy on t-nation. Both labs were while on 238mg of Test/ week. Only difference is that the labs in the bottom were with 50mg of anavar EOD thrown in


Pre-var:
TT 2435
FT 26
SHBG 73
E 53

During var:
TT 1291
FT 61
SHBG 28
E 54

 

[Gman86]

I think oxandrolone is a good drug. I wish I could take it.

This is a new thought: What would happen if you took oxandrolone 20 mg/day with pregnenolone 100 mg per day plus progesterone? Would the low mood effect be prevented?

I agree. It definitely has its place for people that need it or do well on it, and understand the health risks and how to mitigate them through cycling it, modifying lifestyle factors, and/ or running it at a low dose to try and find the sweetspot between benefits and negative effects.

Thats a really good question. Guys that didn’t do well on it in the t-nation thread seemed to think it had something to do with it lowering their SHBG too much and freeing up too much E2, causing their T to E ratio to be out of whack. But idk if that makes sense, considering lowering their SHBG would free up T at the same rate, correct? Or does E2 bind less to SHBG than T, and if SHBG lowered drastically it could in fact throw off their T to E ratio?

There’s way more men that feel great on Oxandrolone, compared to guys that feel worse, and I doubt a lot of those men that feel great are taking preg or prog, so not sure how much supplementing preg and/ or prog is gonna mitigate any negative mood effects. Seems like there’s other mechanisms going on, other than preg and prog levels, that are effecting men’s moods one way or the other, while using Oxandrolone. But I would definitely be very curious whether supplementing with preg and/ or prog did have any positive effects for men having mood issues while on Oxandrolone

 

[Trip McNeely]

I am definitely feeling better. I think several factors played into my funk. I stopped hCG due to a supply issue and started oxandrolone plus 150 mg per week of testosterone enanthate. After two weeks I noticed increased irritability and lack of motivation. I really think DHT analogs like oxandrolone screw up with my 5 alpha reductase that affect my allopregnanolone levels (too bad there is no commercial allopregnanolone tests).

TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones- Cause of Low Mood and Anxiety?

In this video dr Mark Gordon, starting at 9min, explains how using good level of TRT can "burn" 5 alpha reductase enzyme, that beside being responsible for converting Test into DHT, it is also responsible for converting Progesterone into Allopregnanolone in the brain. Throughout the years on...

www.excelmale.com

I stopped the oxandrolone and the injections and decided to try hydrogel testosterone cream from Empower on the scrotum. That made my libido go up for the first two weeks. I felt OK but still edgy and with low motivation. I was able to attain high Total and Free T with it.

I added 100 mg of pregnenolone every night and started feeling better around 3-4 days after. My pregnenolone went from nil to 95 mg/dL but it needs to be a bit more. Pregnenolone at that oral dose did not increase my suppressed progesterone. Pregnenolone is definitely helping me sleep more deeply.

My doctor then suggested Trintellix low dose at 5 mg per day. That made me feel very good 4 days later along with the T cream and pregnenolone. I have a strong motivation again and I am more present in conversations with people. My libido remains high.

I stopped the cream and went back to 100 mg of testosterone enanthate plus 500 IU hCG, pregnenolone and Trintellix. I think this is where I am going to stay. I may bring progesterone low dose and/or increase pregnenolone dose after getting results from this panel.

Hormone Panel for Men on TRT- Comprehensive

This hormone panel for men on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) contains upstream and downstream hormones to testosterone. TRT has been shown to decrease upstream hormones like pregnenolone and progesterone, and slightly decrease DHEA. Downstream ho

www.discountedlabs.com

It had been a long time since I experimented with anything.

Stopping hCG may have started the low mood period. I am 100% sure that oxandrolone is not the drug for me also.

I'm curious about Trintellix, as you're at least the second poster on here who has reported positive effects from it at a low daily dose. Do you find it takes away situational anxiety (e.g., performance anxiety) or just that it lifts your mood overall? I'd love to know more.

 

[Fortunate]

I am definitely feeling better. I think several factors played into my funk. I stopped hCG due to a supply issue and started oxandrolone plus 150 mg per week of testosterone enanthate. After two weeks I noticed increased irritability and lack of motivation. I really think DHT analogs like oxandrolone screw up with my 5 alpha reductase that affect my allopregnanolone levels (too bad there is no commercial allopregnanolone tests).

TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones- Cause of Low Mood and Anxiety?

In this video dr Mark Gordon, starting at 9min, explains how using good level of TRT can "burn" 5 alpha reductase enzyme, that beside being responsible for converting Test into DHT, it is also responsible for converting Progesterone into Allopregnanolone in the brain. Throughout the years on...

www.excelmale.com

I stopped the oxandrolone and the injections and decided to try hydrogel testosterone cream from Empower on the scrotum. That made my libido go up for the first two weeks. I felt OK but still edgy and with low motivation. I was able to attain high Total and Free T with it.

I added 100 mg of pregnenolone every night and started feeling better around 3-4 days after. My pregnenolone went from nil to 95 mg/dL but it needs to be a bit more. Pregnenolone at that oral dose did not increase my suppressed progesterone. Pregnenolone is definitely helping me sleep more deeply.

My doctor then suggested Trintellix low dose at 5 mg per day. That made me feel very good 4 days later along with the T cream and pregnenolone. I have a strong motivation again and I am more present in conversations with people. My libido remains high.

I stopped the cream and went back to 100 mg of testosterone enanthate plus 500 IU hCG, pregnenolone and Trintellix. I think this is where I am going to stay. I may bring progesterone low dose and/or increase pregnenolone dose after getting results from this panel.

Hormone Panel for Men on TRT- Comprehensive

This hormone panel for men on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) contains upstream and downstream hormones to testosterone. TRT has been shown to decrease upstream hormones like pregnenolone and progesterone, and slightly decrease DHEA. Downstream ho

www.discountedlabs.com

It had been a long time since I experimented with anything.

Stopping hCG may have started the low mood period. I am 100% sure that oxandrolone is not the drug for me also.

Glad you’re doing better

 

[Zibernet]

I actually supplement with 100 mg plus, of melatonin throughout the day.

My 42-year-old son can only tolerate 60 mg throughout the day.

At 10mg before bed I get severe depression the next day.
And it doesn't go away by pushing through: I've taken melatonin for 6 months and my mood was terrible all along.

One day after discontinuation I was jolly again.

 

[Gman86]

At 10mg before bed I get severe depression the next day.
And it doesn't go away by pushing through: I've taken melatonin for 6 months and my mood was terrible all along.

One day after discontinuation I was jolly again.

Ya the whole high melatonin dosage thing blows my mind. I can’t understand how there’s such a huge disparity in what doses people are taking. I honestly don’t know which is better, high or low doses. Maybe it’s very individual. But from everything I’ve come across it seems like 0.3mg-1mg per night being the optimal dose range for most people. 1mg being overkill for most. Not symptoms wise the next day, but just what has been shown to be effective, and what’s been shown to be unnecessary and excessive. Here’s an article talking about it. I’ll post some pics about the part where they specifically talk about a good dose for most being around 0.3mg/ day. Sorry if the pics are out of order.

Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted To Know — LessWrong

[I am not a sleep specialist. Please consult with one before making any drastic changes or trying to treat anything serious.] …

www.lesswrong.com

 

[Vince]

Ya the whole high melatonin dosage thing blows my mind. I can’t understand how there’s such a huge disparity in what doses people are taking. I honestly don’t know which is better, high or low doses. Maybe it’s very individual. But from everything I’ve come across it seems like 0.3mg-1mg per night being the optimal dose range for most people. 1mg being overkill for most. Not symptoms wise the next day, but just what has been shown to be effective, and what’s been shown to be unnecessary and excessive. Here’s an article talking about it. I’ll post some pics about the part where they specifically talk about a good dose for most being around 0.3mg/ day. Sorry if the pics are out of order.

Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted To Know — LessWrong

[I am not a sleep specialist. Please consult with one before making any drastic changes or trying to treat anything serious.] …

www.lesswrong.com

Melatonin: functional significance for optimal cellular physiology - Prof. Russel Reiter (14/11/19)

My notes. Dr. Russell J. Reiter said he’s taken melatonin for 27 years to protect his mitochondria. He thinks that this protection, and other effects of melatonin, are far superior to what it does for sleep. One of the most important things that it does is to detoxify Reactive Oxygen Species...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Fortunate]

Ya the whole high melatonin dosage thing blows my mind. I can’t understand how there’s such a huge disparity in what doses people are taking. I honestly don’t know which is better, high or low doses. Maybe it’s very individual. But from everything I’ve come across it seems like 0.3mg-1mg per night being the optimal dose range for most people. 1mg being overkill for most. Not symptoms wise the next day, but just what has been shown to be effective, and what’s been shown to be unnecessary and excessive. Here’s an article talking about it. I’ll post some pics about the part where they specifically talk about a good dose for most being around 0.3mg/ day. Sorry if the pics are out of order.

Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted To Know — LessWrong

[I am not a sleep specialist. Please consult with one before making any drastic changes or trying to treat anything serious.] …

www.lesswrong.com

Agree. Taking more than 3mg is excessive. I feel very hungover from low doses. Long term safety also unknown with respect to sleep hygiene.

 

[Anonymon]

Ya the whole high melatonin dosage thing blows my mind. I can’t understand how there’s such a huge disparity in what doses people are taking. I honestly don’t know which is better, high or low doses. Maybe it’s very individual. But from everything I’ve come across it seems like 0.3mg-1mg per night being the optimal dose range for most people. 1mg being overkill for most. Not symptoms wise the next day, but just what has been shown to be effective, and what’s been shown to be unnecessary and excessive. Here’s an article talking about it. I’ll post some pics about the part where they specifically talk about a good dose for most being around 0.3mg/ day. Sorry if the pics are out of order.

Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted To Know — LessWrong

[I am not a sleep specialist. Please consult with one before making any drastic changes or trying to treat anything serious.] …

www.lesswrong.com

I took 5mg for a while then all the way up to 25mg every night trying to get to sleep for years with poor results, then found out later that the melatonin itself was making it harder for me to sleep by lowering my cortisol too much. Now I’m on .3mg and that’s way better. Even double that makes things worse for me, presumably lowering my cortisol, which causes adrenaline to go up in my case to compensate.

My dad does better at 5mg, possibly because his cortisol’s too high. Cortisol patterns and levels might be why some people do better or worse on it as melatonin runs counter to cortisol.

 

[Gman86]

I took 5mg for a while then all the way up to 25mg every night trying to get to sleep for years with poor results, then found out later that the melatonin itself was making it harder for me to sleep by lowering my cortisol too much. Now I’m on .3mg and that’s way better. Even double that makes things worse for me, presumably lowering my cortisol, which causes adrenaline to go up in my case to compensate.

My dad does better at 5mg, possibly because his cortisol’s too high. Cortisol patterns and levels might be why some people do better or worse on it as melatonin runs counter to cortisol.

Have u ever tried liquid magnesium chloride for sleep and/ or blue blocking glasses? My ex gf was able to get off of trazodone to sleep after taking it for 10 years straight, just by simply using liquid magnesium chloride (specifically remag brand) and blue blocking glasses (blublox brand) obv have no affiliation with either brand, just don’t know if different brands will result in different results, so wanted to be specific and say what worked for her. Because she had severe sleep issues, that were resolved with just those two things. Oh, and I had her trying to get as much sunlight in her eyes first thing in the mornings to reset her circadian rhythm and for her body to know to create melatonin later in the day how it’s supposed to