Cypionate dose protocol for a male.

[Another Great Day]

I completed several searches here and online but was unable to find the answer to this question.

If an HRT male's testosterone levels are at 500 ng/dl what would be the weekly subcutaneous dose of cypionate at 200mg/ml to increase those base levels to 600 ng/dl?

 

[Systemlord]

I completed several searches here and online but was unable to find the answer to this question.

If an HRT male's testosterone levels are at 500 ng/dl what would be the weekly subcutaneous dose of cypionate at 200mg/ml to increase those base levels to 600 ng/dl?

A 200 mg/mL at 1 mL = 200 mg injection, would likely put you over the top for most if not all of the week. The Endocrine society recommends 75-100 mg per week.

In the majority of cases, 100 mg per week will get men into the mid to high normal ranges.

 

[Systemlord]

Why is 200 mg/wk the "upper limit" for TRT?

I keep seeing people post that 200 mg/wk of test propionate is the upper range for TRT and that anything more than that constitutes AAS levels, with the implication that if you go higher you are abusing the protocol. Why is that, exactly? I'm a pretty big guy (235, just under 6'), and I feel...

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Responses of different doses of testosterone injections on body composition, strength, etc.

Comment: 125 mg per week was the lowest dose that provided statistically significant changes in lean body mass and fat mass. PAPER ATTACHED Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men. Bhasin S, et al. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Dec;281(6):E1172-81. Full paper...

www.excelmale.com

 

[aneuman]

I think it is hard to predict, but you can use the chart below as a reference.

As you can see, al treatment options put some individuals in the "600" category. That's why TRT is highly individualized. In general, starting point ranges from 50-100 mg testosterone cypionate.

A good starting point, it seems, is to start around 75-80mg of testosterone cypionate sub-cutaneous, once a week, at least that's what more consistently put the tests subjects between 600-800 ng/dl measured at trough, that is 7 days after the injection and before the next injection.

One thing to keep in mind is that the starting levels of natural endogenous testosterone would be meaningless . Once TRT is started, it will most likely disrupt the HPG axis, and the natural production would be suppressed or kept at very, very low levels. You are not "topping off" your natural production, you are replacing it altogether, that's why it is called Testosterone Replacement Therapy.

 

[Another Great Day]

A 200 mg/mL at 1 mL = 200 mg injection, would likely put you over the top for most if not all of the week. The Endocrine society recommends 75-100 mg per week.

In the majority of cases, 100 mg per week will get men into the mid to high normal ranges.

Thank you very much for the information. I should have been more clear by saying the of product I would be using is Cypionate 200mg/ml, not that I would use a 1 ml dose 200mg/ml dose.

 

[Another Great Day]

I think it is hard to predict, but you can use the chart below as a reference.

As you can see, al treatment options put some individuals in the "600" category. That's why TRT is highly individualized. In general, starting point ranges from 50-100 mg testosterone cypionate.

A good starting point, it seems, is to start around 75-80mg of testosterone cypionate sub-cutaneous, once a week, at least that's what more consistently put the tests subjects between 600-800 ng/dl measured at trough, that is 7 days after the injection and before the next injection.

One thing to keep in mind is that the starting levels of natural endogenous testosterone would be meaningless . Once TRT is started, it will most likely disrupt the HPG axis, and the natural production would be suppressed or kept at very, very low levels. You are not "topping off" your natural production, you are replacing it altogether, that's why it is called Testosterone Replacement Therapy.
View attachment 36704

Thank you very much.

 

[Another Great Day]

I think it is hard to predict, but you can use the chart below as a reference.

As you can see, al treatment options put some individuals in the "600" category. That's why TRT is highly individualized. In general, starting point ranges from 50-100 mg testosterone cypionate.

A good starting point, it seems, is to start around 75-80mg of testosterone cypionate sub-cutaneous, once a week, at least that's what more consistently put the tests subjects between 600-800 ng/dl measured at trough, that is 7 days after the injection and before the next injection.

One thing to keep in mind is that the starting levels of natural endogenous testosterone would be meaningless . Once TRT is started, it will most likely disrupt the HPG axis, and the natural production would be suppressed or kept at very, very low levels. You are not "topping off" your natural production, you are replacing it altogether, that's why it is called Testosterone Replacement Therapy.
View attachment 36704

Would it be beneficial to divide the sub-q doses to Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

 

[aneuman]

Would it be beneficial to divide the sub-q doses to Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

The study did not divide it. They did the injection on Mondays 8:00 am. They noticed that the levels remained very stable for 5 days with a noticeable drop to "baseline levels" on the 7th day, however, they found that:

"The slight decline in mean serum testosterone levels just prior to an injection was not accompanied by a decline in subjective symptoms of energy or mood and is thus unlikely to have clinical significance."

I, on the other hand, have chosen to split the dosage into two of 40 mg each. One on Mondays and one on Thursday, both in the morning. If you want to be anal about the schedule, you could do every 3.5 days, that is, Monday mornings and Thursday evenings, or whatever combination of days that preserves this frequency. I'm not really bothered at the moment with the "0.5 day". Your levels should stable in around 6 weeks, assuming you are compliant with the treatment.

If this is correct, then your average daily level should be about 8mg per day, which is within the range of the natural production of a "healthy young man"

 

[aneuman]

Would it be beneficial to divide the sub-q doses to Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

I should add that there's always a compromise between how stable you want your blood levels to be, and how frequently are you willing to inject.

You could inject testosterone suspension )no ester, short half life) every hour trying to mimic the natural cycle, but that requires 24 pin pricks every day for the rest of your life, or you could do 200 mg every two weeks, but then you could have symptoms of low T after 13 days. A good balance is every week, or twice a week.

If you are planning on using Testosterone Cypionate, the half life is between 5 and 8 days, depending who you trust, which means that injecting every 3 or 4 days would be enough to maintain reasonably stable levels.

This is serum testosterone on once a week sub cutaneous injections, according to the study.

As you can see, they are, as the scientists claim, "reasonably stable". Twice a week may smooth out the drop on the 7th day. More frequent than that may not be necessary, although there are always exceptions and reasons for everything.

 

[Another Great Day]

The study did not divide it. They did the injection on Mondays 8:00 am. They noticed that the levels remained very stable for 5 days with a noticeable drop to "baseline levels" on the 7th day, however, they found that:

"The slight decline in mean serum testosterone levels just prior to an injection was not accompanied by a decline in subjective symptoms of energy or mood and is thus unlikely to have clinical significance."

I, on the other hand, have chosen to split the dosage into two of 40 mg each. One on Mondays and one on Thursday, both in the morning. If you want to be anal about the schedule, you could do every 3.5 days, that is, Monday mornings and Thursday evenings, or whatever combination of days that preserves this frequency. I'm not really bothered at the moment with the "0.5 day". Your levels should stable in around 6 weeks, assuming you are compliant with the treatment.

If this is correct, then your average daily level should be about 8mg per day, which is within the range of the natural production of a "healthy young man"

View attachment 36705

Thank you.

 

[tareload]

You could inject testosterone suspension )no ester, short half life) every hour trying to mimic the natural cycle, but that requires 24 pin pricks every day for the rest of your life,

See here. TNE behaves similarly to Test Prop from pharmacokinetic standpoint.

Testosterone (no ester) Suspension for Injection - Literature Review

Going to do a thread on what is often referred to as TNE (Testosterone No Ester) on here. This preparation would be crystalline testosterone in an aqueous suspension (e.g., Aquaviron). I'll see what I can find on pharmacokinetics as well. Building off of @madman 's post here...

www.excelmale.com

Troche or nasal gel or cream on anus (man / woman) or labia (woman) gets you closer to physiologic pulsing.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I have a script for it, and have for 20+ years now. My doctor does not care how much I tale as long as it is in the normal range.

For me, and this is not normal, I pin 200mg on the 1st, 10th and 20th of every month and I am steady at 700-750

I'm curious what your reasoning is for this. We had someone else here report excellent results with 200mg every 20 days I believe. I suspect there are a lot of unconventional protocols that have not been discovered or widely publicized that that seem "unnatural" but which work well for some people.

 

[Systemlord]

We had someone else here report excellent results with 200mg every 20 days I believe.

It all sounds wonderful until you pay attention to the details, only two injections into TRT.

Come on man, honeymoon period anyone?

Let’s take a wait and see approach before we throw a victory parade.

 

[Cataceous]

I have a script for it, and have for 20+ years now. My doctor does not care how much I tale as long as it is in the normal range.

For me, and this is not normal, I pin 200mg on the 1st, 10th and 20th of every month and I am steady at 700-750

To be clear, if you're injecting testosterone cypionate about every 10 days then your levels are neither steady nor normal. I assume you mean your trough measurements are pretty consistent at 700-750 ng/dL. If so then your peak levels may be well over 2,000 ng/dL, with the average over 1,200 ng/dL. No surprise here, as you are averaging 14 mg of testosterone per day, much more than the 6-7 mg that is typically produced by healthy young men. @tareload put together a useful dose-response chart here.

 

[Systemlord]

After 20+ years, honestly, I am just tired of the jabs so I try to minimize them.

I used to inject daily, and it was a pain. Newer oral TRT options should eventually come down in price. I now dose orally twice daily, Jatenzo @ 237 mg.

 

[Another Great Day]

That is an awesome chart, may have to reevaluate my protocol.

After 20+ years, honestly, I am just tired of the jabs so I try to minimize them. My highest post stick has been 1,200 ng/dl and the lowest day before the stick is 480 ng/dl

Thanks to this great information website I learned many years ago that subcutaneous injections of testosterone is as effective as IM injections. I use Easy Touch 27 gauge needles and it fantastic vs IM

 

[Cataceous]

That is an awesome chart, may have to reevaluate my protocol.

After 20+ years, honestly, I am just tired of the jabs so I try to minimize them. My highest post stick has been 1,200 ng/dl and the lowest day before the stick is 480 ng/dl

You might consider testosterone undecanoate. You could inject that every two weeks and still have much less variation in serum testosterone. The caveat is that totally steady testosterone is also somewhat unnatural. If that turned out to be a problem then you could even go with monthly injections. That would still be only one half-life — versus your current two half-lives — so you could maintain your levels in a physiological range while still seeing some variation.

 

[Cataceous]

Ok, so how much TU every 2 weeks?
Wouldn't monthly cause that same crash?
...

As a quick-and-dirty estimate just assume that an injection interval of one half-life means the peak serum level is double the trough. Assuming normal SHBG — so that free testosterone is also reasonable — a decent monthly-injection protocol with testosterone undecanoate might have a peak serum T level of 1,000 ng/dL and a trough of 500 ng/dL. So no, you should not experience a crash if you obtain these results. The caveats: the half-life of T undecanoate varies depending on the carrier oil and individual; the long half life means that stabilization can take months; lowering the dose can lead to side effects that take time to resolve; test SHBG so that you can track free testosterone, which is more important than total.

My guess is that in switching to testosterone undecanoate you could lower your dose by at least 5 mg T per day. Rounding off a bit, this would say that you could inject 200 mg TU every two weeks or 400 mg per month.

Here are some positive anecdotes about lowering the dose.

 

[tareload]

chart

Latest version here....


Post in thread 'Is low dose nandrolone safe?' Is low dose nandrolone safe?

Gives people of understanding of the mean TT spread vs weekly injection amount.

Just looking at trough can be deceptive in you don't appreciate the ratio of mean to trough for different injection frequencies.

 

[Another Great Day]

How often and how much?

Determine what your weekly dose should be and then determine your preference. As described above, some may inject anywhere from once per week to once per day.