Daily Low Dose T cyp/prop results

[Deleted member 16042]

The formula, courtesy of @Cataceous

4:3 ratio of T cyp to T prop.

6mg/day testosterone, about 8mg combined with ester weights

7 parts

4/7 *6mg=3.43mg/.7= 4.9mg cypionate @ 200mg/ml = .025ml

3/7 *6mg=2.57mg/.837= 3.07mg proprionate @ 100mg/ml = .031ml

Total dose .056ml or 5.6 units U100


Quest Labs at about 8 weeks:

Trough, 8 am before daily shot:

SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOBULIN 87 H 22-77 nmol/L
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, LC/MS 719 250-1100 ng/dL
TESTOSTERONE, FREE Z3E (DIALYSIS) 49.9 35.0-155.0 pg/mL
ESTRADIOL,ULTRASENSITIVE, LC/MS 31 H < OR = 29 pg/mL

Somewhere around or a bit post peak, 5.5 hours post dose:

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, MS 963 250-1100 ng/dL
TESTOSTERONE, FREE 79.4 35.0-155.0 pg/mL


With Tru-T calc, free T is 29.01 peak and 19.17 ng/dl trough

Decreasing my T dose did provoke some withdrawal symptoms, but wasn't too bad this round.

The main reason for adopting this protocol was to help lower Hematocrit. This has been a complex issue for me, not just because of taking Testosterone. It seemed to reset too high after recovery from over 2 years of transfusion dependent anemia. I had high EPO which is the signalling chemical that stimulates erythropoesis, produced in the kidneys as a response to hypoxemia. The problem was probably also compounded by taking nandrolone, but EPO remained high long after discontinuing the nandrolone. HCT reached 57.7. I was also receiving phlebotomies as often as weekly, but also for critical iron overload from all the transfusions. I reached a high of around 3500 ferritin in December last year. Now HCT is down to 52, and ferritin to about 350, so I am happy for the time being. I am also waiting for sleep study results.

 

[Willyt]

Fantastic stuff Blackhawk testing both trough and peak. Its remarkable to see how only 8mg of @Cataceous blend peaked you at 963 TT!

Trough of 719 TT was 75% of peak, which is bit higher than Cat's 62%. Pretty damn close to normal daily peak-trough variation.

So the real question is how are you feeling subjectively versus your previous protocol?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Fantastic stuff Blackhawk testing both trough and peak. Its remarkable to see how only 8mg of @Cataceous blend peaked you at 963 TT!

Trough of 719 TT was 75% of peak, which is bit higher than Cat's 62%. Pretty damn close to normal daily peak-trough variation.

So the real question is how are you feeling subjectively versus your previous protocol?

Things are pretty settled after some symptoms from reducing. I have too many comorbidities to parse out every little thing. Just feel pretty normal.

 

[Willyt]

Things are pretty settled after some symptoms from reducing. I have too many comorbidities to parse out every little thing. Just feel pretty normal.

Can you remind me what your previous protocol was?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Can you remind me what your previous protocol was?

T cyp 70mg/week, 20mg every other day

The other parts are unchanged : HCG 300iu every other day, DHEA 25mg and Pregnenelone 100mg daily.

I started on 150/week years ago and reduced multiple times due to high HCT, E2, and just to see how I do on more physiological levels.

 

[savefoxes]

Your free T is barely above the range. I started TRT with your peak levels and have to keep my total T at 1600 to feel good with similar level of SHBG, but it's going down because of trt. I wouldn't use tru-t with your shbg level. How do you feel on this dose?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Your free T is barely above the range. I started TRT with your peak levels and have to keep my total T at 1600 to feel good with similar level of SHBG, but it's going down because of trt. I wouldn't use tru-t with your shbg level. How do you feel on this dose?

Sorry I missed your post, as I said above, post #3, I feel normal. Now with a few more weeks on this protocol, I feel just fine. The other thing is that I no longer am carrying excess water weight compared to T cyp only. And HCT is finally down under 50%.

I do not understand your comment: "Your free T is barely above the range. " My free T by eq dialysis is in range. Is it ideal? When I started TRT, my free T was 3.1 pg/ml, range 9.3-26.5, so it's a whole lot better than that! LOL!

There's an awful lot of theory and anecdote kicked around here that we have to push free T to high normal range or higher for effective treatment of hypogonadism. I question that theory. Like several other regular members here I am doing quite well with these levels, and I feel better about not pushing any level that creates unwanted effects. Even just shedding the chronic water weight is very welcome. We'll see how it pans out for the longer term...

And other background, as stated above I have other co-morbidities, but for the time being, my cancer is in remission, and I am able to exercise daily again. Regardless of my lower T levels, I am doing better than I have in several years. And I know that many men who are on TRT have trouble with libido and sexual function. Not my problem!

 

[Willyt]

Even just shedding the chronic water weight is very welcome. We'll see how it pans out for the longer term...

I tend to retain water big time on medium esters like Enan/Cyp, especially at the classic dose of 100mg (split 2x weekly). I too noticed very swift drop of water weight when transitioning from straight Enan to Enan/Prop blend, which I have done twice. Even at low doses I usually see couple pounds come off along with less swelling in feet.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Started this protocol 8 months ago, ongoing success.

No symptoms to complain of related to T or Thyroid. I do get a little water build up based on the HCG E4D cycle, but tolerable, not like water retention I've had in the past on higher dose and just T cyp.

Still on the same 56mg/week 4:3 ratio of T cyp to prop. HCG 400iu E4D, DHEA 25mg, Pregnenlone 50mg.

Just labs for peak so far, also have a trough set coming including E2 and SHBG, should be here soon. This is at roughly peak on the day after HCG, so HCG should also be peaking.

T injection at 8:40 AM,
Thyroid taken at 6:45 AM
labs drawn at 12:11 PM

 

[Willyt]

Started this protocol 8 months ago, ongoing success.

No symptoms to complain of related to T or Thyroid. I do get a little water build up based on the HCG E4D cycle, but tolerable, not like water retention I've had in the past on higher dose and just T cyp.

Still on the same 56mg/week 4:3 ratio of T cyp to prop. HCG 400iu E4D, DHEA 25mg, Pregnenlone 50mg.

Have you tested this protocol without the HCG? (I am wondering how much the HCG boosts your TT levels via endogenous production). What have you experienced as main benefit of HCG?

I am also a low dose guy as you may remember, but never had much success with HCG although I have thought about giving it another try.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Have you tested this protocol without the HCG? (I am wondering how much the HCG boosts your TT levels via endogenous production). What have you experienced as main benefit of HCG?

I am also a low dose guy as you may remember, but never had much success with HCG although I have thought about giving it another try.

Yes. I take it for TRT induced shrinkage, and when I don't take it, it is worse. I doubt there is any measurable endogenous production, despite HCG, there's not much left of them. Sexual function remains fine, no libido or ED issues, but I am far past any concern for fertility

 

[Willyt]

Yes. I take it for TRT induced shrinkage, and when I don't take it, it is worse. I doubt there is any measurable endogenous production, despite HCG, there's not much left of them. Sexual function remains fine, no libido or ED issues, but I am far past any concern for fertility

Do you subjectively notice any other HCG benefits?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Do you subjectively notice any other HCG benefits?

No.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Follow up:

due to ongoing erytrocytosis I've continued lowering dose. The HCT is a complicated issue, most likely at this point testosterone is a minimal or non driving factor. I have other pertinent stuff going on, but lowered my dose anyway.

Now taking 4mg T cyp and 3mg T prop daily, 49mg/week, plus HCG 180iu E2D, and DHEA and pregneneolne daily. I may lower some of this to drop E2 a smidge. Will consult with Dr Saya soon.

Morning labs this round (theoretical trough):

Testosterone, F Eqlib+T LC/MS
-Testosterone, Total, 783.5 ng/dL 264.0-916.0
-Testosterone, Free 19.74 ng/dL 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 2.52% 1.50-4.20
Estradiol, Sensitive 40.039.1pg/mL 8.0-35.0
Sex Horm Binding Glob Serum 61 19.3-76.4

I always go through some withdrawal symptoms when lowering, but am doing fine at this level, have been weight training with modest gains after losing so much weight from leukemia and anemia.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Follow up:

due to ongoing erytrocytosis I've continued lowering dose. The HCT is a complicated issue, most likely at this point testosterone is a minimal or non driving factor. I have other pertinent stuff going on, but lowered my dose anyway.

Now taking 4mg T cyp and 3mg T prop daily, 49mg/week, plus HCG 180iu E2D, and DHEA and pregneneolne daily. I may lower some of this to drop E2 a smidge. Will consult with Dr Saya soon.

Morning labs this round (theoretical trough):

Testosterone, F Eqlib+T LC/MS
-Testosterone, Total, 783.5 ng/dL 264.0-916.0
-Testosterone, Free 19.74 ng/dL 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 2.52% 1.50-4.20
Estradiol, Sensitive 40.039.1pg/mL 8.0-35.0
Sex Horm Binding Glob Serum 61 19.3-76.4

I always go through some withdrawal symptoms when lowering, but am doing fine at this level, have been weight training with modest gains after losing so much weight from leukemia and anemia.

I'm glad this is working for you. Did you notice any drop in resting heart rate? I'm trying to figure out why mine is elevated and the cyp is one of my suspects.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

I'm glad this is working for you. Did you notice any drop in resting heart rate? I'm trying to figure out why mine is elevated and the cyp is one of my suspects.

No change.

 

[Forty2]

Follow up:

due to ongoing erytrocytosis I've continued lowering dose. The HCT is a complicated issue, most likely at this point testosterone is a minimal or non driving factor. I have other pertinent stuff going on, but lowered my dose anyway.

Now taking 4mg T cyp and 3mg T prop daily, 49mg/week, plus HCG 180iu E2D, and DHEA and pregneneolne daily. I may lower some of this to drop E2 a smidge. Will consult with Dr Saya soon.

Morning labs this round (theoretical trough):

Testosterone, F Eqlib+T LC/MS
-Testosterone, Total, 783.5 ng/dL 264.0-916.0
-Testosterone, Free 19.74 ng/dL 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 2.52% 1.50-4.20
Estradiol, Sensitive 40.039.1pg/mL 8.0-35.0
Sex Horm Binding Glob Serum 61 19.3-76.4

I always go through some withdrawal symptoms when lowering, but am doing fine at this level, have been weight training with modest gains after losing so much weight from leukemia and anemia.

I'm surprised you're able to achieve such a high T level on just 49mg/week.
Nelson posted a study some time ago which found the group of men on 50mg/week experienced a reduction in their T level from baseline.

 

[Willyt]

I'm surprised you're able to achieve such a high T level on just 49mg/week.
Nelson posted a study some time ago which found the group of men on 50mg/week experienced a reduction in their T level from baseline.

Its the blend with propionate that spikes the daily peak. Prop is remarkably potent on daily basis

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Its the blend with propionate that spikes the daily peak. Prop is remarkably potent on daily basis

I think there is more to it.

Based on Cataceous' research and hypotheses, this newest set of labs is at theoretical trough. My previous labs on 8mg/day as noted above have shown (Just total T for simplicity, but free also varied accordingly):

Trough: 719 250-1100 ng/dL
Peak: 963 250-1100 ng/dL

Second round, peak/trough flipped, but I believe because I used labcorp for trough and Quest for peak, so noise from not using the same exact tests:

Labcorp trough: 1048 ng/dL 264.0-916.0
Quest peak: 994 ng/dl 250-1100

Now the latest at theoretical trough on 7mg/day, is consistent enough from the previous data:

783.5 ng/dL 264.0-916.0

So I have no concrete answer for why my response is this good compared to the study cited, only semi educated speculation. The issue to me is moot anyway. We pursue our own personal balance with TRT. This is mine, low dose works for me, and I may even be able to go lower. I am quite happy with it. YMMV.

 

[RotnGun]

I think there is more to it.

Based on Cataceous' research and hypotheses, this newest set of labs is at theoretical trough. My previous labs on 8mg/day as noted above have shown (Just total T for simplicity, but free also varied accordingly):

Trough: 719 250-1100 ng/dL
Peak: 963 250-1100 ng/dL

Second round, peak/trough flipped, but I believe because I used labcorp for trough and Quest for peak, so noise from not using the same exact tests:

Labcorp trough: 1048 ng/dL 264.0-916.0
Quest peak: 994 ng/dl 250-1100

Now the latest at theoretical trough on 7mg/day, is consistent enough from the previous data:

783.5 ng/dL 264.0-916.0

So I have no concrete answer for why my response is this good compared to the study cited, only semi educated speculation. The issue to me is moot anyway. We pursue our own personal balance with TRT. This is mine, low dose works for me, and I may even be able to go lower. I am quite happy with it. YMMV.

Have you ever tried just daily test cyp without the test prop? If so, how was it compared to doing the test cyp with the test prop?