Gene's Nitric Oxide Stack

[Gene Devine]

I am having GNC Horny Goat Weed which contain 600 mg of HGW and 250 mg of Maca Root Extract. So how to make HGW 150 mg. Moreover,I hope no problem with Maca to stack.

This link will take you to the Icariin 60 which contains the highest amount of the active ingredient in HGW and is the most effective for our purpose. Most of the supplements here only contain 10 mg of the active ingredient which is very low to be honest BUT does work synergistically with the stack.

http://www.icariinhealth.com/pages/horny-goat-weed-icariin

 

[Gene Devine]

So Gene there's no doubt those supplements help but do you pretty much have to go workout for your vascularity to be pronounced like in the pics you posted?

No, some guys have low body fat and thus are vascular by nature. But if you're of normal stature trying to get this level of vascularity is going to be difficult to achieve...you need help to do that.

I believe this stack, as an anti aging strategy, even for those who don't work out is excellent.

As we age small blood vessels and capillaries narrow making blood flow difficult and the resulting damage as a result.

In fact, age related dementia can be a result.

This stack goes to cause reverse that effect so even if you don't work out the health benefits abound.

It's why many anti aging Docs prescribe a daily low dose Cialis to the male patients to get the same benefits...I just like to super size it LOL

 

[The Dude]

That may work for you, but I have found that I cannot get above 6mg a day of tadalafil without side effects. I gradually increased the dose over many weeks from 2mg every other day to 3.5mg at bed and 2.5mg in the morning, and that is as much as I can take.

Interestingly, at that point, if I increase any of the other vasodilation supplements, it pushes me into the same side effects.

+++

By the way, Gene - have you tried the exact same stack with and without HGW ? Or are you basing the synergy concept on theory ?

 

[Gene Devine]

That may work for you, but I have found that I cannot get above 6mg a day of tadalafil without side effects. I gradually increased the dose over many weeks from 2mg every other day to 3.5mg at bed and 2.5mg in the morning, and that is as much as I can take.

Interestingly, at that point, if I increase any of the other vasodilation supplements, it pushes me into the same side effects.

+++

By the way, Gene - have you tried the exact same stack with and without HGW ? Or are you basing the synergy concept on theory ?

Yes, I have tested it without the Icariin and really didn't see much change but stacks are like that where one formula has little impact on the aggregate but all combined provides for the greatest result.

I still believe the Tadalafil and Doxazosin are the foundation of the stack; everything else are simply enhancers.

 

[Gene Devine]

Here's a good read from ergo-log on why the better NO boosters contain a combination of L-arginine and L-citrulline together like in my stack.

http://www.ergo-log.com/better-no-boosters-contain-a-combination-of-l-arginine-and-l-citrulline.html

 

[The Dude]

That's a very interesting study, thanks.

It does verfiy the same factor that Examine.com points out, which is that Arginine is gone after an hour or two, and thereafter it is only Citrulline.

So, if you are going to workout, then adding Arginine to the Citrulline is a benefit, but longer term Citrulline alone is as good (and even Citrulline still does not last more then 3-4 hours).

 

[ironman]

No, some guys have low body fat and thus are vascular by nature. But if you're of normal stature trying to get this level of vascularity is going to be difficult to achieve...you need help to do that.

I believe this stack, as an anti aging strategy, even for those who don't work out is excellent.

As we age small blood vessels and capillaries narrow making blood flow difficult and the resulting damage as a result.

In fact, age related dementia can be a result.

This stack goes to cause reverse that effect so even if you don't work out the health benefits abound.

It's why many anti aging Docs prescribe a daily low dose Cialis to the male patients to get the same benefits...I just like to super size it LOL

I'm pretty vascular as you can see in the pic I posted, I don't take any of those supplements and actually haven't been in a gym in over 10 years because of an injury and now my health over this crap. I figure it's just from a lifetime of hard work, I know most people have to work up a pump to get their vascularity to show like you said. I do want to get some of those supplements you have listed to see if it helps some things.

 

[Gene Devine]

I'm pretty vascular as you can see in the pic I posted, I don't take any of those supplements and actually haven't been in a gym in over 10 years because of an injury and now my health over this crap. I figure it's just from a lifetime of hard work, I know most people have to work up a pump to get their vascularity to show like you said. I do want to get some of those supplements you have listed to see if it helps some things.

Probably genetics. Some men are just naturally more vascular than others like some men are naturally small in stature while others are giants.

 

[mike7]

L-Citrulline is probably the most important part of the stack.
L-Arginine is only helpful a half hour before a workout (of whatever kind ), because it dissipates quickly.


"L-Citrulline is an amino acid. It is turned into L-arginine in the kidneys after supplementation, which means L-citrulline supplementation is a more effective method of increasing L-arginine levels in the body than L-arginine supplementation."

I'm new to all of this so please help me understand. Why would you supplement both in the stack if one's just being converted to the other?

 

[The Dude]

I'm new to all of this so please help me understand. Why would you supplement both in the stack if one's just being converted to the other?

If you are working out in the gym, and you want to maximized Nitric Oxide during your workout, then taking both will do that. Otherwise, L-Citrulline is more effective (as stated above by Examine.com).

There are actually a lot of subtleties to the concept of increasing nitric oxide and blood flow, including:

* Below 40 years old and above 40 years old.
* Bodybuilding/weightlifting emphasis vs not so much
* Significant poor artery health and/or high blood pressure vs not
* Erectile Dysfunction vs not
* Diet including daily salads, fruits and vegetables vs not

 

[Gene Devine]

I'm new to all of this so please help me understand. Why would you supplement both in the stack if one's just being converted to the other?

Didn't you see this link above?

http://www.ergo-log.com/better-no-boosters-contain-a-combination-of-l-arginine-and-l-citrulline.html

 

[mike7]

If you are working out in the gym, and you want to maximized Nitric Oxide during your workout, then taking both will do that. Otherwise, L-Citrulline is more effective (as stated above by Examine.com).

There are actually a lot of subtleties to the concept of increasing nitric oxide and blood flow, including:

* Below 40 years old and above 40 years old.
* Bodybuilding/weightlifting emphasis vs not so much
* Significant poor artery health and/or high blood pressure vs not
* Erectile Dysfunction vs not
* Diet including daily salads, fruits and vegetables vs not

I was wondering why you'd take it at bedtime if it's out of your system so quickly? Personally, I'm 41, lift weights (nothing crazy) and train BJJ 3X a week while trying to eat healthy most of the time. My last blood pressure was 117/64 a few weeks ago. No ED, I think, not sure of actual definition, just lack of drive in that department and very rarely, if ever, in the morning.

Didn't you see this link above?

http://www.ergo-log.com/better-no-boosters-contain-a-combination-of-l-arginine-and-l-citrulline.html

I missed that completely, thanks!

I've read most of this thread, and many others, so I may be getting some of my terminology and issues confused, I apologize. Please keep in mind that I'm not questioning the validity of your statements, I'm just trying to understand, and sometimes I'm a little slow.

 

[The Dude]

I expect that supplementation at bedtime affects the body's repair processes during sleep. Supplements that increase blood flow during sleep might help those repair processes. Certainly the ergo-log graph indicates that by perhaps 3am, Citrulline is gone, but at least it was there during the earlier period.

Here is an oversimplification of how it works:

Nitric Oxide can be generated from Arginine (which in turn can be generated from Citrulline). This method is helped by Korean Red Ginseng or Pycnogenol or Grape Seed Extract or Hawthorn* or Cocoa**, all of which has been shown to inhibit the enzyme that inhibits the production of Nitric Oxide.

Nitric Oxide can also be generated from Nitrites which are generated from Nitrates. Nitrates are found in Beets, kale, salads, arugula, etc. This occurs due to an enzyme which can be stimulated with Hawthorn. (this is explained by the following page which also points out that mouthwash can diminish your nitric oxide: http://theredrushblog.com/2014/05/05/how-red-rush-works-with-bad-illustrations/ )

Nitric Oxide stimulates cGMP production which is what produces all the good effects. cGMP is inhibited by PDE5. PDE5 is inhibited by Sildenafil and Tadalafil and the natural supplement Icariin.

The Arginine pathway decreases with age, while the Nitrates one does not, which is why those over 40 are sometimes recommended to use the Nitrate one (Beets and Hawthorn and No Mouthwash) rather than the Arginine one. PDE5 inhibitors should work with both.

-----

* Note that only Nature's Way Heartcare brand of Hawthorn is standardized for OPCs, the chemical that is similar to Grape Seed, Pycnogenol, etc. (I have no interest in any brand, just what is in the tablets)

** The relevant chemicals in Cocoa - Flavonols - are found in Dark Chocolate, not Milk or White chocolate, and Baking Cocoa, but only if not "Dutched" or not "Alkalinized".

 

[Gene Devine]

I expect that supplementation at bedtime affects the body's repair processes during sleep. Supplements that increase blood flow during sleep might help those repair processes. Certainly the ergo-log graph indicates that by perhaps 3am, Citrulline is gone, but at least it was there during the earlier period.

Here is an oversimplification of how it works:

Nitric Oxide can be generated from Arginine (which in turn can be generated from Citrulline). This method is helped by Korean Red Ginseng or Pycnogenol or Grape Seed Extract, all of which has been shown to inhibit the enzyme that inhibits the production of Nitric Oxide.

Nitric Oxide can also be generated from Nitrites which are generated from Nitrates. Nitrates are found in Beets, kale, salads, arugula, etc. This occurs due to an enzyme which can be stimulated with Hawthorn. (this is explained by the following page which also points out that mouthwash can diminish your nitric oxide: http://theredrushblog.com/2014/05/05/how-red-rush-works-with-bad-illustrations/ )

Nitric Oxide stimulates cGMP production which is what produces all the good effects. cGMP is inhibited by PDE5. PDE5 is inhibited by Sildenafil and Tadalafil and the natural supplement Icariin.

The Arginine pathway decreases with age, while the Nitrates one does not, which is why those over 40 are sometimes recommended to use the Nitrate one (Beets and Hawthorn and No Mouthwash) rather than the Arginine one. PDE5 inhibitors should work with both.

^^^^Good shit right there!

 

[mike7]

Here is an oversimplification of how it works...

Thank you! Great explanation for the layman.

 

[The Dude]

I found two articles on the subject (by a Swedish nutrition researcher who is also a bodybuilder). The first explains why Arginine works for some people and not others and the second is about the Nitrate pathway for Nitric Oxide:

http://www.trainergize.com/diet-sup...rginine-based-no-boosters-really-work-for-you

http://www.trainergize.com/diet-sup...izing-pathway-to-boost-performance-and-health

( The articles do have a lot of technical content, but can be skimmed... )

 

[The Dude]

More technical stuff for anyone interested.

Basically, an explanation of why antioxidants (Pycnogenol, Grape Seed Extract, Hawthorn Extract, Cocoa extract, etc.) can be important for nitric oxide, is found on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylargininase

Inhibition of DDAH activity causes methylarginines to accumulate, blocking nitric oxide(NO) synthesis and causing vasoconstriction.[4] An impairment of DDAH activity appears to be involved in the elevation of plasma ADMA, and impairment of vascular relaxation observed in humans with cardiovascular disease or risk factors (such as hypercholesterolemia, diabetes mellitus, and insulin resistance). The activity of DDAH is impaired by oxidative stress, permitting ADMA to accumulate. A wide range of pathologic stimuli induce endothelial oxidative stress such as oxidized LDL-cholesterol, inflammatory cytokines, hyperhomocysteinemia, hyperglycemia and infectious agents. Each of these insults attenuates DDAH activity in vitro and in vivo.[5][6][7][8] The attenuation of DDAH allows ADMA to accumulate, and to block NO synthesis. The adverse effect of these stimuli can be reversed in vitro by antioxidants, which preserve the activity of DDAH.

...

These insights into the role of DDAH in degrading endogenous inhibitors of NOS, and thereby maintaining vascular NO production, may have important implications in vascular health and therapy for cardiovascular disease.

Pycnogenol is perhaps the best antioxidant (certainly the best documented), so if it is not a budget buster, go with it. Otherwise, you can find Grape seed extract as a bulk powder from the usual bodybuilding bulk powder sources.

 

[DanJ]

Hi Gene,

My name is Dan, I am from the UK I have been following your thread and I have found it very interesting.

I am a regular gym goer..6-7 times a week I am 25 years old and 16.5 stone.

Over the past few years I have suffered with ED. No morning or random erections any more and need to take viagra before sex.. Which at my age is very frustrating and confusing as I am you fit and I would say healthy.

I am not sure what has caused my ED whether it be lifestyle or something I have been taking..

I bought some 60% icariin 300mg per tab, some Pycnogenol 30mg and some L-Arginine AAKG powder and Citrulline powder from primaforce.

I am taking Icariin (1tab), Pycnogenol (2 tabs), L-Arginine (3000-4000mg) and Citrulline (2000mg) every morning and just before gym with BCAA's and Crab powder and then before bed. I am also taking fish oils, vit D, Iron and multivit 2x daily.

I have been taking the stack for about 2 weeks now. I would say its improved my pumps in the gym a fair bit and general fullness of muscles which I sometimes struggled with it also improved my morning erections for a few days then stopped?? I am sure something is blocking my NO production or circulation but I have no idea what to do. Taking Cialis seems pointless to me as I want to cure ED naturally and permanently not actually have to take an ED drug as I already have to buy Viagra for that.

I drink a redbull per day sugar free, I'm not sure whether this is effecting me? because other than that my diet is clean and I only drink water no tea, coffee or sports drinks.

Any advice you could give me would be much appreciated.

 

[The Dude]

my diet is clean

The official medical establishment has never given scientifically based diet information, and neither has the government. Of course, the reason is money and politics.

Ironically, I have found that the UK has probably the least amount of scientifically accurate diet and nutrition information - even though all the misinformation originated in the US (first from 7th Day Adventists 100 years ago, and then in the 70's from a US Senate committee).

SO, what do you mean by "my diet is clean" ?

And when you say "something I have been taking." have you been taking any pharmaceuticals regularly ?

 

[DanJ]

By clean diet I mean a fairly strict bodybuilding type diet.

Breakfast eggs and porridge
11am Fish and Rice
2pm Chicken and Sweet Potato
6pm Chicken, Rice and Veg
9pm (after gym) Fish and Rice and Veg or Steak
10.30pm - Protein Shake

I only drink Water and I keep this diet pretty much 7days per week.

I do not taking any pharmaceuticals just vitamins and gym supplements and Viagra when needed.

but something I am doing or not doing is causing my ED and I would love to know what I can do to cure it.