TRT Dose question

[sh1973]

I remember envying your success on 1x weekly 60mg. Loved the simplicity of it.

Since you seem to do well on it other than first 1-2 days, I would agree with some of the other posters to a modest dose reduction with moving to 2x weekly to blunt that peak.

Yeah I was doing great until staring that statin and somehow it has raised my T levels verified with labs

 

[JanEv]

Your protocol after all these years seems a bit daft to me. I’m on 80mg/wk split EOD and sub Q. (Test Cyp) I would imagine my peaks and troughs are pretty smooth on that basis. I certainly don’t have definable good/bad days like you describe, and my bloods are bang on.

 

[sh1973]

I decided to do 50mg this shot a few days ago and already feel much better. I think the statin decreased shbg causing my levels at 60mg to be higher. I hope it continues because until the statin, I felt fantastic for years on once weekly 60mg.

 

[sh1973]

I was curious, so I went ahead and got labs on 50 mg per week. It has only been three weeks but I am feeling much better in all regards. I was surprised how high the levels still are and this is day seven in the morning of my shot before my shot. Definitely goes to show in someone like myself, a little goes a long way.

 

[Willyt]

I was curious, so I went ahead and got labs on 50 mg per week. It has only been three weeks but I am feeling much better in all regards. I was surprised how high the levels still are and this is day seven in the morning of my shot before my shot. Definitely goes to show in someone like myself, a little goes a long way.

Good news that you are feeling better. Are you still experiencing crappiness day after injection? Are you going to stick with 1x per week shallow IM?

 

[sh1973]

Good news that you are feeling better. Are you still experiencing crappiness day after injection? Are you going to stick with 1x per week shallow IM?

Definitely sticking to once weekly for now and no I’m not feeling bad the day after. I normally use a 25 gauge 1” needle for glutes or 25guage 5/8 for delta and rotate through the 4 sites. I feel like my levels climb a little faster in the delts. I also got an iron panel for the first time ever and it all seems good.

 

[Gibbon]

I also have good levels on low doses. On 52 mg/wk (EOD) my free was 180 at trough (240 max range). Not something I need to be to get sleep. Recently adjusted down too and looking to lower my trough. Moving down is rough as is moving up on dose for me. What is your free T at 50 mg/wk? I am happy for the support here on lower doses. I am definitely better cognitively and long term I won't be using long esters.

 

[Willyt]

I also have good levels on low doses. On 52 mg/wk (EOD) my free was 180 at trough (240 max range). Not something I need to be to get sleep. Recently adjusted down too and looking to lower my trough. Moving down is rough as is moving up on dose for me. What is your free T at 50 mg/wk? I am happy for the support here on lower doses. I am definitely better cognitively and long term I won't be using long esters.

Are you having trouble sleeping both peak and trough day? IM or subq?

 

[Gibbon]

I do deltoid now, shallow IM, 29 gauge/1/2 inch. My sleep when bad doesn't seem to make much of difference whether peak or trough. It's like I hit too high of a level of free T and bam. I end up getting aggressive, jumpy and then sleep goes to hell. Labs show my free T has jumped when this happens. I have moved down to 42 mg/wk now. Will be getting labs done next week but it is a little earlier since it will be only week 3 or so. I started at around 80mg/wk a few years ago. After a year levels jumped, then it happened again after about another year and my SHBG dropped too which makes sense since my free T jumped.

Changing doses is brutal. Weird malaise like anxiety, depression, twitching, I could go on and on. Now, things have calmed down but it seems like my first 3 weeks on a dose reduction or increase cause very similiar issues. Riding it out is very draining. I do notice a cognitive improvement that I didn't know was a issue at higher doses.

I have never had high T levels as I am secondary hypo and they figured it is genetic as my nephew has the same. I think I once tested at 300 TT and 50 free. However, I started TRT at a TT of 170 and free of 25. It's just my theory that moderate levels would do wonders, upper range sure don't work for me. Hard for most here to believe but I could probably get my free T peak down to 150 and it may even be the best. I am 60 years old just for reference. It does seem crazy a low dose gives me robust levels.

 

[sh1973]

I also have good levels on low doses. On 52 mg/wk (EOD) my free was 180 at trough (240 max range). Not something I need to be to get sleep. Recently adjusted down too and looking to lower my trough. Moving down is rough as is moving up on dose for me. What is your free T at 50 mg/wk? I am happy for the support here on lower doses. I am definitely better cognitively and long term I won't be using long esters.

I haven’t tested it yet but will in a few weeks after things stabilize

 

[sh1973]

I also have good levels on low doses. On 52 mg/wk (EOD) my free was 180 at trough (240 max range). Not something I need to be to get sleep. Recently adjusted down too and looking to lower my trough. Moving down is rough as is moving up on dose for me. What is your free T at 50 mg/wk? I am happy for the support here on lower doses. I am definitely better cognitively and long term I won't be using long esters.

It’s good to see others like us that are finding more is definitely not better. My current doctor now and several I’ve had in the past will give you most any dose to relieve your symptoms. When my levels get anywhere near or over 1000ng, I feel absolutely awful. They’re just as no other way to say it. There’s not one single aspect of having high testosterone levels that I like. I realize we all metabolize it differently but for me lower levels are much better. I can tolerate up to 80 mg per week and occasionally I’ll throw in 180 mg injection here and there just to shock the system. Having said that anything above that level is off-limits for me but I definitely feel better in the 50 to 70 mg range overall

 

[sh1973]

Something else I have I had a case that is really perplexed to me and doctors over the years is, if my levels are any bit over 800 ng, I have absolutely zero libido. I feel like a neutered dog when my levels are high and have absolutely no desire whatsoever for sex. I went to Dr. John Crisler a couple times and some of the more well-known TRT facilities over the years and they were always baffled by my case. Even with SHBG I no longer believe in the theory of that. The reason I say that is, my level is consistently stay in the 50–70 ng range Yet I need super low doses of testosterone. I completely realize that not every man needs a super low dose of testosterone.I will say emphatically, I think a lot of men would do better if they did lower their dose. I have seen it several times with folks that I know locally, that have remedied their symptoms by simply lowering the dose.

 

[Cataceous]

Something else I have I had a case that is really perplexed to me and doctors over the years is, if my levels are any bit over 800 ng, I have absolutely zero libido. I feel like a neutered dog when my levels are high and have absolutely no desire whatsoever for sex. ...

I think interference with libido and sexual function by exogenous androgens is much more common than people think, even if not as dramatic as in your case. This was driven home to me by recent experiments in which a difference of 0.3 mg in the daily dose of testosterone made a very large difference. I couldn't even believe this result until I repeated it. The circumstances are unique, so I'm certainly not suggesting that the average guy on TRT would be so sensitive to minuscule changes. But I think it supports the general principle of using exogenous androgens judiciously.

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

I think interference with libido and sexual function by exogenous androgens is much more common than people think, even if not as dramatically as in your case. This was driven home to me by recent experiments in which a difference of 0.3 mg in the daily dose of testosterone made a very large difference. I couldn't even believe this result until I repeated it. The circumstances are unique, so I'm certainly not suggesting that the average guy on TRT would be so sensitive to minuscule changes. But I think it supports the general principle of using exogenous androgens judiciously.

0.3 MG how did you measure that small amount? I wonder if you felt the change in function or libido can you describe the change you felt please

 

[Willyt]

I do deltoid now, shallow IM, 29 gauge/1/2 inch. My sleep when bad doesn't seem to make much of difference whether peak or trough. It's like I hit too high of a level of free T and bam. I end up getting aggressive, jumpy and then sleep goes to hell. Labs show my free T has jumped when this happens. I have moved down to 42 mg/wk now. Will be getting labs done next week but it is a little earlier since it will be only week 3 or so. I started at around 80mg/wk a few years ago. After a year levels jumped, then it happened again after about another year and my SHBG dropped too which makes sense since my free T jumped.

Changing doses is brutal. Weird malaise like anxiety, depression, twitching, I could go on and on. Now, things have calmed down but it seems like my first 3 weeks on a dose reduction or increase cause very similiar issues. Riding it out is very draining. I do notice a cognitive improvement that I didn't know was a issue at higher doses.

I have never had high T levels as I am secondary hypo and they figured it is genetic as my nephew has the same. I think I once tested at 300 TT and 50 free. However, I started TRT at a TT of 170 and free of 25. It's just my theory that moderate levels would do wonders, upper range sure don't work for me. Hard for most here to believe but I could probably get my free T peak down to 150 and it may even be the best. I am 60 years old just for reference. It does seem crazy a low dose gives me robust levels.

I am a daily low dose subq guy and have found that anything over 6mg TE daily will result in early AM awakenings which leaves me feeling shitty rest of the day.

I am currently adding 2mg TNE to my daily base of 6mg TE to provide a morning spike. The fast acting TNE is out of the body by nighttime allowing for lower trough. It is not perfect, but seems to work better than adding Propionate for that morning spike, which I experimented with for years.

 

[Willyt]

Something else I have I had a case that is really perplexed to me and doctors over the years is, if my levels are any bit over 800 ng, I have absolutely zero libido. I feel like a neutered dog when my levels are high and have absolutely no desire whatsoever for sex. I went to Dr. John Crisler a couple times and some of the more well-known TRT facilities over the years and they were always baffled by my case. Even with SHBG I no longer believe in the theory of that. The reason I say that is, my level is consistently stay in the 50–70 ng range Yet I need super low doses of testosterone. I completely realize that not every man needs a super low dose of testosterone.I will say emphatically, I think a lot of men would do better if they did lower their dose. I have seen it several times with folks that I know locally, that have remedied their symptoms by simply lowering the dose.

Same exact experience here. At top of range, I have sub-zero libido if that is possible (at least pre-TRT I have occasional flashes). I have mid-high SHBG of 40-45

I continue to be jealous of guys who experience raging libido at supraphysiologic levels. If only...

 

[Cataceous]

0.3 MG how did you measure that small amount? I wonder if you felt the change in function or libido can you describe the change you felt please

I developed an aqueous testosterone solution, which I ended up diluting to 10 mg/mL. With my 0.3 cc insulin syringes I have 0.005 mL resolution. The threshold occurred between the dose rate of 0.15 mg testosterone taken three times daily and 0.05 mg testosterone, also three times daily. So this was a reduction in total daily dose by 0.3 mg. The difference was profound. Libido went from lackadaisical to strong. Nocturnal erections returned. Daytime erections went from difficult to achieve to available at will with sexual ideation alone.

The backstory here is somewhat complicated, and I intend to do a full writeup in another thread. For now let's just say my hypothesis is that even a small amount of exogenous testosterone can be disruptive when most testosterone is obtained endogenously and with the aid of gonadorelin and kisspeptin-10 delivered at a sub-physiological frequency. The uniqueness of the situation makes it less applicable to others. However, it's notable that these results are more consistently good than during the previous 10 years of TRT. Of course there have been some very good periods during protocol transitions, but these honeymoons never lasted more than a week or two, leaving a lot of the time being inconsistent and meh in hindsight.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I developed an aqueous testosterone solution, which I ended up diluting to 10 mg/mL. With my 0.3 mm insulin syringes I have 0.005 mL resolution. The threshold occurred between the dose rate of 0.15 mg testosterone taken three times daily and 0.05 mg testosterone, also three times daily. So this was a reduction in total daily dose by 0.3 mg. The difference was profound. Libido went from lackadaisical to strong. Nocturnal erections returned. Daytime erections went from difficult to achieve to available at will with sexual ideation alone.

The backstory here is somewhat complicated, and I intend to do a full writeup in another thread. For now let's just say my hypothesis is that even a small amount of exogenous testosterone can be disruptive when most testosterone is obtained endogenously and with the aid of gonadorelin and kisspeptin-10 delivered at a sub-physiological frequency. The uniqueness of the situation makes it less applicable to others. However, it's notable that these results are more consistently good than during the previous 10 years of TRT. Of course there have been some very good periods during protocol transitions, but these honeymoons never lasted more than a week or two, leaving a lot of the time being inconsistent and meh.

I will be curious to hear if you are able to maintain healthy e2 level with that protocol.

Also, I'm glad to see TNE becoming the standard term for straight testosterone again. Alternate terms like native T just create confusion IMO.

 

[Cataceous]

I will be curious to hear if you are able to maintain healthy e2 level with that protocol.

It's looking ok so far. The most recent measurement was 29 pg/mL taken about six weeks after dropping to these trivial doses of exogenous testosterone. Still a decent drop from the 40-60 it had been running previously. If anything I might be concerned about the E2/T ratio being high. The question is whether a good ratio at peak levels is more important than what's happening at the troughs.

Also, I'm glad to see TNE becoming the standard term for straight testosterone again. Alternate terms like native T just create confusion IMO.

Yes, that "native T" stuff is just marketing. In principle TNE is all-encompassing for injectables—but then you need to specify oil or water base, and suspension or solution.

 

[Willyt]

Yes, that "native T" stuff is just marketing. In principle TNE is all-encompassing for injectables—but then you need to specify oil or water base, and suspension or solution.

It is confusing because most of AAS articles appear to refer to TNE as oil base (sometimes just referred to as "Base) whereas Suspension refers to water. Either way there is no ester, but the two can be different in terms of absorption rate and PIP.