For those who are struggling on TRT

[tareload]

I might guess that in 1962 instead of 2022, half the 19 yr old teens may have been walking around with T between 1000 and 1500. I graduated HS in 1970. It sure felt like it then

I guess No. Widespread commercial RIA testing for TT didn't start until early 1970s


Hourly Intraday testosterone profiles in young eugonadal (healthy functional) men (1973-1983)

Testosterone Levels by Country/Demographic/Year

Modest generational decline in TT (2007): https://t-nation.com/t/what-is-trt-and-what-is-not-trt/269828/35

forums.t-nation.com

Testosterone Levels by Country/Demographic/Year

To give you perspective on the bullshit you may be reading on the internet: 2005 marks the 100th anniversary of the creation of the term hormone by Ernest Starling. Although its biological effects were known since antiquity, the name testosterone (T) was coined only in 1935, when Ernest...

forums.t-nation.com

Testosterone Levels by Country/Demographic/Year

Ref ranges 1970-1980s: https://t-nation.com/t/what-is-trt-and-what-is-not-trt/269828/314 https://t-nation.com/t/what-is-trt-and-what-is-not-trt/269828/315

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Willyt]

Here's a different study with data collected in roughly the same time period. Mean total testosterone is 582 ng/dL, SD 159 ng/dL.

Cat - Based on the mean of 582, what would you expect the average daily peak to be? Around 700-750?

 

[bixt]

I might guess that in 1962 instead of 2022, half the 19 yr old teens may have been walking around with T between 1000 and 1500. I graduated HS in 1970. It sure felt like it then.

I used to to think this way, I do not now. 1500 will put a lot of people double over the range FT. And a lot of people moving around on TRT with double range FT have water retention, bloat, heavy feet, whole lot of side effects. Pretty sure all those 19 year olds didnt have all those side effects and by extension were not moving around with double range FT.

Go thru this forum and others, and you will find 1500 T or double range FT has not solved mens problems. I can barely find success stories.

Contrary to this, I can find a lot of success stories on those doing 10mg daily or thereabouts.

 

[Cataceous]

Cat - Based on the mean of 582, what would you expect the average daily peak to be? Around 700-750?

I don't think it would be much higher—maybe low-to-mid 600s. Diurnal data suggest that even noon readings aren't going to be more than 10% off of peaks. "Blood samples were obtained between 0700 and 1200 h from 126 healthy men aged 20--45 years ..."

 

[Yung4yrs]

I'd truly love to see the actual study you reference. If you could post info on where it came from I'd enjoy seeing it.

Now then, You wanna doubt my projection/opinion of what teens might have had as levels when I was 10 in 1962? Be my guest, it's conjecture on both our parts. The point is that tons of folks hand wring over OMG my T is too high when it gets to 800-900 cuz it's outside today's "norm" MAY be better for his health. The vast majority of men can use BOTH T level's and symptoms to judge optimum dosage. It'll never be perfect cuz you'd virtually have to have a 24/7 monitor to follow patterns. And most American guys WILL NEVER SEE any health care professional that knowledgeably applies analysis of all the variables you mention. So normal guys must fight a system hostile to what they are trying to do and will invariably be undertreated by doctors that are scared of everything from malpractice suits to the feminist woke left.

Oh and BTW, my own personal last test?
Total T 536
Free T 6.6
Estradiol 28.5
Progesterone .3 ng/ml
No SHBG measurement

Had to ask for all of these myself at my annual physical. I increased my T Cyp dose based on the numbers.

 

[bixt]

Now then, You wanna doubt my projection/opinion of what teens might have had as levels when I was 10 in 1962? Be my guest, it's conjecture on both our parts.

Its very very simple. Just inject 200-250mg or whatever amount until your levels are 1500 or so. Wait some months and then see if you continue to feel awesome like 1962, 24/7. And then please dont forget to report back to us.

 

[sh1973]

So I got my labs back and they are about what I was expecting and the funny thing is I’m almost down to where my pre-TRT levels were go figure. Anyhow I feel fantastic and I’m going to stay put long-term.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

So I got my labs back and they are about what I was expecting and the funny thing is I’m almost down to where my pre-TRT levels were go figure. Anyhow I feel fantastic and I’m going to stay put long-term.

I bet only your total T is close to your pre-TRT level. Free T is likely higher.

 

[Mastodont]

So I got my labs back and they are about what I was expecting and the funny thing is I’m almost down to where my pre-TRT levels were go figure. Anyhow I feel fantastic and I’m going to stay put long-term.

Yes it would be nice to compare the free t, or do you have recent data on the shbg?
What is probably also significant is that in the natural state when you measure in the morning theres gonna be some diurnal variation even for older men, whereas now what you measure is consistent throughout the day. I also got my first labs with the 50mg once a week, and on the free t scale(235-670pmol/l) i was 278, naturally i have been at 180 nowadays, this was two days before through, so definitely not high but percentagewise it is significant also considering the consistency throughout day, have been feeling pretty damn good, its the second time i have surprised myself with low labs feeling great.
Think i'm gonna see this once a week thing for a few more weeks even though i am low shbg, the enanthate has not even cumulated to the max yet, also trying this subq butt.

 

[sh1973]

Yes it would be nice to compare the free t, or do you have recent data on the shbg?
What is probably also significant is that in the natural state when you measure in the morning theres gonna be some diurnal variation even for older men, whereas now what you measure is consistent throughout the day. I also got my first labs with the 50mg once a week, and on the free t scale(235-670pmol/l) i was 278, naturally i have been at 180 nowadays, this was two days before through, so definitely not high but percentagewise it is significant also considering the consistency throughout day, have been feeling pretty damn good, its the second time i have surprised myself with low labs feeling great.
Think i'm gonna see this once a week thing for a few more weeks even though i am low shbg, the enanthate has not even cumulated to the max yet, also trying this subq butt.

My shbg is normally in the the 50-60 range and I no longer measure free t but judging by past labs I would be 10-12ng which is the range I have felt best in the past.

 

[Mastodont]

I forgot to add, i have been wondering if i should be doing enanthate twice a week with low shbg, but i guess i would have to do labs at peak whenever that is subq with enanthate, and through to see how much it fluctuates, but probably even better to judge by how i feel, it would be so nice to just inject once a week, was thinking the subq route would even out the release, don't know if there is any science to back that up

 

[Willyt]

So I got my labs back and they are about what I was expecting and the funny thing is I’m almost down to where my pre-TRT levels were go figure. Anyhow I feel fantastic and I’m going to stay put long-term.

Was test taken on trough day? (day 6?). If so, you are consistently running above your pre-TRT levels throughout the week.

 

[Mastodont]

Was test taken on trough day? (day 6?). If so, you are consistently running above your pre-TRT levels throughout the week.

we need to crowdfund peak test labs for sh

 

[sh1973]

Was test taken on trough day? (day 6?). If so, you are consistently running above your pre-TRT levels throughout the week.

This was taken 7 full days after injection just about to the hour

 

[sh1973]

we need to crowdfund peak test labs for sh

Thing is nobody really knows when peak is. I honestly seem to feel the highest 3 1/2 to 4 days out. I e checked 48 hours after doing 100mg and was 1430ng so judging by that I would assume I’m peaking around a thousand or under now.

 

[Mastodont]

Thing is nobody really knows when peak is. I honestly seem to feel the highest 3 1/2 to 4 days out. I e checked 48 hours after doing 100mg and was 1430ng so judging by that I would assume I’m peaking around a thousand or under now.

Yes i heard this many times before, mainly regards to test e, that it takes a while to peak, though studies on PK dont seem to back it up, rather that next day is the peak, i guess one should do his own daily labs for the whole week

 

[Mastodont]

Found this, xyosted is adviced to only be used on belly fat for some reason.

 

[Willyt]

Once a week. I’ve experimented several times over the years with various dosing schedules and have found I feel much better doing once weekly.

I've been thinking about this thread lately. Any theories on why you seem to respond better on 1x week versus daily? I've read a number of accounts from med-high SHBG guys like you who do better on less frequent injections.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I've been thinking about this thread lately. Any theories on why you seem to respond better on 1x week versus daily? I've read a number of accounts from med-high SHBG guys like you who do better on less frequent injections.

I think it is important to distinguish between the number of med-high SHBG guys who can "get away with" less frequent injections versus what appears to be a much smaller number that actually feel better on less frequent injections. After a few months of immersion in the social media of this TRT world, I think I can count that second number on one hand.

 

[sh1973]

I think it is important to distinguish between the number of med-high SHBG guys who can "get away with" less frequent injections versus what appears to be a much smaller number that actually feel better on less frequent injections. After a few months of immersion in the social media of this TRT world, I think I can count that second number on one hand.

I can tell you for sure there’s pretty much no dose or frequency I haven’t tried and once weekly is absolutely by far leaps and bounds better than any other frequency I’ve tried. I agree with what you’re saying about the more frequent injections as well because I don’t know very many people who do good doing that.