Restart attempt log

[Vintageviking]

Hi all,
I'm attempting a restart of hpta after 14 years taking TRT. I've had enough of ups and downs, chasing numbers and feeling like rubbish. Had a heart attack at xmas due to a blocked artery and slightly high cholesterol.

Met a wonderful girl been with a few years and we would like to start a family so regaining fertility is also a reason to quit. I know it's possible to stay on TRT while taking HCG to get fertile, but I've had enough and want to see if I can get back to a decent hormone profile without needing support of drugs.

I was perfectly fine before taking test. I used it mainly for bodybuilding from dosages of 250mg - 500mg per week. These last 4 years I've been trying to dial in a TRT dose. Have tried many protocols always giving them the 6-8 week mark before pulling a test.

This is my test on 120mg of test per week after 6 weeks: ( No A.I ) ( No HCG )
ALBUMIN - 39 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 27 ( 18 - 54 )
FSH and LH 0.3
Oestradiol - 260 ( 40 - 159 )
Total Test - 48.5 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test - 1.52 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Free Androgen Index - 179 (24 - 104 )
Prolactin - 468 ( 86 - 324 )
Dhea - 3.5 ( 2.4 - 11.6 )

After seeing the results I reduced my dose to 60mg per week and after 6 weeks this was the results:
ALBUMIN - 42 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 36 ( 18 - 54 )
FSH and LH 0.3
Oestradiol - 149 ( 40 - 159 )
Total Test - 24.3 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test - 0.5 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Free Androgen Index - 67 (24 - 104 )
Prolactin - 246 ( 86 - 324 )
Dhea - 4.4 ( 2.4 - 11.6 )

Looking at the results on 60mg everything seems good, but I felt worse. Stayed at that dose, but added in HCG at 500iu 2x week for 6 weeks which blew my balls up, but it was hit or miss still on erection and libido.

I can't work it out if it's high E2 and I would need an A.I even at 60mg dose as mine sits at the very top end of the range. I wanted a test dose that didn't require an AI. Dropping below 60mg per week I might as well just be on nothing, so if this restart works I would be over the moon and glad to see the back of it all.

Seen Nelsons protocol on these forums and have decided to go with that:
weeks 1-6 HCG at 1000iu x2 per week
weeks 7-10 Clomid 25mg per day
weeks 11-14 Clomid 12.5mg per day
weeks 15-20 nothing

My questions are about pulling the tests. Do I need a test done after the HCG phase ? How do I know the HCG part has worked ( apart from blowing balls up ) Do I test at any other part of the protocol apart from the final deal after the 20 weeks ?

Tomorrow 17/09/2023 is day one on 1000 IU HCG then I will have my second on Wednesday. Do this for the 6 weeks. I'm feeling really shitty right now zero sex drive and hoping to see an improvement over the next few weeks.

If this doesn't work and I come out the end with low test, then It just might have to be TRT route again.

I decided to make this a log post for others who maybe interested to see what happens along the way, or for others to chime in with helpful information that might aid me on this quest.

It was a toss up between excelmale and a few others, decided to come here as have been lurking for years around sites and this one seems like one off if not the best for it's information and community members.

This post might be in the wrong section, sorry in advance could not see one suited to this topic.

Thanks all if you got this far reading lol

 

[madman]

Hi all,
I'm attempting a restart of hpta after 14 years taking TRT. I've had enough of ups and downs, chasing numbers and feeling like rubbish. Had a heart attack at xmas due to a blocked artery and slightly high cholesterol.

Met a wonderful girl been with a few years and we would like to start a family so regaining fertility is also a reason to quit. I know it's possible to stay on TRT while taking HCG to get fertile, but I've had enough and want to see if I can get back to a decent hormone profile without needing support of drugs.

I was perfectly fine before taking test. I used it mainly for bodybuilding from dosages of 250mg - 500mg per week. These last 4 years I've been trying to dial in a TRT dose. Have tried many protocols always giving them the 6-8 week mark before pulling a test.

This is my test on 120mg of test per week after 6 weeks: ( No A.I ) ( No HCG )
ALBUMIN - 39 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 27 ( 18 - 54 )
FSH and LH 0.3
Oestradiol - 260 ( 40 - 159 )
Total Test - 48.5 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test - 1.52 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Free Androgen Index - 179 (24 - 104 )
Prolactin - 468 ( 86 - 324 )
Dhea - 3.5 ( 2.4 - 11.6 )

After seeing the results I reduced my dose to 60mg per week and after 6 weeks this was the results:
ALBUMIN - 42 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 36 ( 18 - 54 )
FSH and LH 0.3
Oestradiol - 149 ( 40 - 159 )
Total Test - 24.3 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test - 0.5 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Free Androgen Index - 67 (24 - 104 )
Prolactin - 246 ( 86 - 324 )
Dhea - 4.4 ( 2.4 - 11.6 )

Looking at the results on 60mg everything seems good, but I felt worse. Stayed at that dose, but added in HCG at 500iu 2x week for 6 weeks which blew my balls up, but it was hit or miss still on erection and libido.

I can't work it out if it's high E2 and I would need an A.I even at 60mg dose as mine sits at the very top end of the range. I wanted a test dose that didn't require an AI. Dropping below 60mg per week I might as well just be on nothing, so if this restart works I would be over the moon and glad to see the back of it all.

Seen Nelsons protocol on these forums and have decided to go with that:
weeks 1-6 HCG at 1000iu x2 per week
weeks 7-10 Clomid 25mg per day
weeks 11-14 Clomid 12.5mg per day
weeks 15-20 nothing

My questions are about pulling the tests. Do I need a test done after the HCG phase ? How do I know the HCG part has worked ( apart from blowing balls up ) Do I test at any other part of the protocol apart from the final deal after the 20 weeks ?

Tomorrow 17/09/2023 is day one on 1000 IU HCG then I will have my second on Wednesday. Do this for the 6 weeks. I'm feeling really shitty right now zero sex drive and hoping to see an improvement over the next few weeks.

If this doesn't work and I come out the end with low test, then It just might have to be TRT route again.

I decided to make this a log post for others who maybe interested to see what happens along the way, or for others to chime in with helpful information that might aid me on this quest.

It was a toss up between excelmale and a few others, decided to come here as have been lurking for years around sites and this one seems like one off if not the best for it's information and community members.

This post might be in the wrong section, sorry in advance could not see one suited to this topic.

Thanks all if you got this far reading lol

Welcome to Nelson's domain!

Sorry to hear about your heart attack must have been an eye opener.

Need to tread lightly on what kind of trough TT/FT levels you are running when on TRT and hoping you avoid the steroid merry go round as it is of no benefit long-term especially when it comes to cardiovascular health.

I agree that your best bet would be coming off T temporarily if you plan on having children soon.

You are always going to go back to baseline and highly doubtful your natty T levels are going to be robust seeing as you abused testosterone/possibly AAS and were on TRT doses over the last 14 years.

Will most likely end up hopping back on TRT.




These last 4 years I've been trying to dial in a TRT dose. Have tried many protocols always giving them the 6-8 week mark before pulling a test.

This is my test on 120mg of test per week after 6 weeks: ( No A.I ) ( No HCG )
ALBUMIN - 39 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 27 ( 18 - 54 )
FSH and LH 0.3
Oestradiol - 260 ( 40 - 159 )
Total Test - 48.5 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test - 1.52 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Free Androgen Index - 179 (24 - 104 )
Prolactin - 468 ( 86 - 324 )
Dhea - 3.5 ( 2.4 - 11.6 )

After seeing the results I reduced my dose to 60mg per week and after 6 weeks this was the results:
ALBUMIN - 42 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 36 ( 18 - 54 )
FSH and LH 0.3
Oestradiol - 149 ( 40 - 159 )
Total Test - 24.3 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test - 0.5 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Free Androgen Index - 67 (24 - 104 )
Prolactin - 246 ( 86 - 324 )
Dhea - 4.4 ( 2.4 - 11.6 )

Looking at the results on 60mg everything seems good, but I felt worse. Stayed at that dose, but added in HCG at 500iu 2x week for 6 weeks which blew my balls up, but it was hit or miss still on erection and libido.



Two big red flag here looking over your previous protocols/labs.

On 120 mg T/week you were hitting a very high TT 48.5 nmol/L (1398 ng/dL) and you have fairly normal SHBG 27 nmol/L so your FT level would be through the roof as in absurdly high!

Doubtful you even used an accurate assay (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) when testing FT but even than knowing your TT, SHBG and Albumin gives a descent estimate of where your cFT level sits and again with a whopping TT almost 1400 ng/dL and normal SHBG 27 nmol/L your FT 43.9 ng/dL level would be through the roof as in absurdly high!

Kicker here is when were labs drawn as we always want to test at true trough (lowest point) before your next injection.

You made a big mistake by only giving the protocol 6 weeks which means jack shit when looking at the bigger picture.

Unfortunately you lack the understanding of how exogenous T works.

When first starting TRT or tweaking a protocol (increasing/decreasing dose) hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) and during this transition it is common for many to experience ups/downs as the body is trying to adapt to the increasing T levels or decreasing T levels when one is lowering the dose.

Even than once blood levels have stabilized (steady-state) it will still take time for the body to adapt to the new set-point over the following months and this is the critical time period when one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being.

Every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance (12 weeks) to truly say whether it was a success or failure.

This is where many make the mistake and end up on that never ending merry go round tweaking their protocols every 6 weeks because they do not feel good.

Many lack the understanding of the PKs and how exogenous T works in the body.

You only gave the protocol 6 weeks than went and cut your dose in half.

120--->60 mg/week and you are bound to feel unwell over the following weeks as blood levels are declining and it is normal to experience this.

Even than you are only 6 weeks in and again it will take a few more months for the body to adapt to your new set point.

Top it off that you are still hitting a robust TT 24.3 nmol/L (700 ng/dL) and your SHBG is still normal 36 nmoL/L so your FT level would be descent.

Again doubtful you even used an accurate assay (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) when testing FT but even than knowing your TT, SHBG and Albumin gives a descent estimate of where your cFT level sits and again with a robust TT 700 ng/dL and normal SHBG 36 nmol/L your FT 15.1 ng/dL level would be descent.

Kicker here is when were labs drawn as we always want to test at true trough (lowest point) before your next injection.

Also keep in mind that when using/relying upon the cFTV as of now it tends to overestimate FT when compared to the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis.

You left out some of the most important blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit!

Need to include/post these in your labs.



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[Vintageviking]

Thanks for the detailed reply @madman. The heart attack was a life changing event as I still haven't mentally adjusted and am always aware of it now. Not been going to the gym when I hadn't missed a day in years before it happened. I feel lost, no drive anymore.

The results of 120mg was too high, but I felt better and had more function than at 60mg. Had been running the 60mg dose for months and only added the HCG for fertility reasons. Dead to the world on that protocol, even worse feeling now after dropping everything this past week for a restart.

All my labs get drawn the morning just before I do my next shot. That's my trough reading on both them tests. I pin x2 per week, but have tried daily and didn't notice any difference so x2 a week shots, HCG same time and no AI. Should of mentioned that. I have tried protocols 12 weeks and over, but normally you would expect to feel something positive after 6 weeks.

I don't have HCT or Hem on those 2 tests sadly.

When I first started TRT protocols I started at a very high 250mg per week divided into 2 doses. I ran this for about 8 months and pulled a test. ( only found these results after hoking about my computer )

ALBUMIN - 45 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 31 ( 18 - 54 )
FSH and LH 0.3
Oestradiol - 157 ( 40 - 159 )
Total Test - 38.6 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test - 0.9 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Free Androgen Index - 122 (24 - 104 )
Prolactin - wasn't tested
Dhea - 4.6 ( 2.4 - 11.6 )

On this test of 250mg in 2018 The TT FT and E2 were a lot lower than my latest 120mg test. The same testosterone was used, I only use pharma grade and the same company. After this test I attempted a restart without HCG or any Clomid, just a raw restart and stuck that hell for about 5 months. I was near throwing the rope up so pulled this test.

HCT - 0.4 ( 0.3 - 0.5 )
TSH - 1.2 (0.2 - 4.2 )
Free T3 - 4.8 ( 3.1 - 6.8 )
T4 - 19.7 ( 12 - 22 )
ALBUMIN - 44 ( 35 - 50 )
SHBG - 51 ( 18 - 54 )
Total Test - 10.9 ( 8 - 29 )
Free Test 0.1 ( 0.2 - 0.6 )
Oestradiol - <18 ( 40 - 159 )

So this was after 5 months on nothing. SHBG shot up to 51 and my TT, E2 and FT very low.

By the looks of that I would need TRT no doubt ?

All I want is to feel good and get my fertility up. At this moment I'm far away from both. It doesn't matter TRT or not, whatever works Ill be happy.

Is this restart going to be a waste of 5 months feeling like crap and ending up on TRT anyway ? Should I give TRT another go and possibly add in a very low dose AI ?

My problems are mostly soft erections, lack of libido and hard to bust a nut. Even at 60mgs My E2 sits near out the range. Everything else is green ticked mid to high range.

Thanks again @madman for the links have read over them.

 

[literally.me]

Hi. Read my posts if you can. I had ED on TRT too. Was about 4 years when it strikes me. And I was feeling very angry and anxious so I searched on forums like Reddit and found other guys having the same problem as me. If you Google it you will find dozens of topics about TRT and ED. It was an estrogen problem. Don't know how to explain but seens like we turn sensitive to estrogen(?)

When I took Anastrozole within minutes I could calm down and my libido starts to return. And every time I inject testosterone (and I've tried microdoses daily too) my penis goes to coma. So I realized it has to be the estrogen. Now I am off testosterone for two weeks already and my libido is normal and I don't feel angry or anxious anymore.

 

[Vintageviking]

I been through all the AI stuff the past few years with people like Danny Bossa and his cult of anti AI bandits on all the forums. I have used Anastrozole a lot in the past mostly on my bodybuilding days at higher doses of testosterone were it is needed.

TRT is a different ballgame, the doses are small so even a little bit of AI can crash your estrogen and cause a host of side effects. My aim was to find a dose were AI wasn't needed, went as low as 60mg for a TT of 700 yet my E2 is near out of the range. To me real TRT should be without an AI, but I'm starting to believe that some guys need the AI to function me being one of them.

It's conflicting info when you delve into the internet. I found it 50/50 on people who preach AIs and people who are anti AI. The thing to understand is every person is different so finding what works for some doesn't work for others.

There seems to be some evidence at least on my tests that people can become very sensitive to T and E2 and over the years need less T for the same bloodwork results. I've seen this before a few places people talking about it. My 120mg dose now eats and shits my 250mg dose on every marker from 2018! Same testosterone, same company.

Have you labs when on TRT ? how high was your E2 ? @literally.me

 

[literally.me]

@Vintageviking two times. Was standard range E2. And asied the ED I was feeling like a drunk asshole. Extreme angry and pissed off. Fightkng with my (now ex)girlfriend for everything. Making her cry and getting even more angry. Insonia. Could not sleep. Was feeling warm and rolling on the bed like my stomach was on fire. Heart rate up like I was running. Etc.

Everything solved with Arimidex / going off.

These symptoms I described ahead are high esteogen symptoms. Don't care what Danny Bossa or the cult of TRT says. They are always angry, anxious, arguing like I were because of testosterone/high estrogen. I bet they all feel the same as me but cope with is saying "it's male behavior to be angry, blablabla". No. It's not. It sucks to live like this. It is not a "male behavior" to act like this. Quite the oposite.

 

[Vintageviking]

After a good chat with the girlfriend and taking @madman advice into consideration decided to do the restart after all. Fertility is the target, plus it will be interesting to see after all these years if my system will fire up. Can always go back to TRT as a backup if all else fails.

I normally inject on Sunday night and Wednesday morning T and HCG. I'm going to try a second experiment using my 30mg T and 500iu HCG only this time adding in Anastrozole at .25 to see if I feel a difference. Will try this

Wednesday 20th September = 30mg T, 500iu HCG, .25 Anastrozole
Sunday 24th September = 30mg T, 500iu HCG, .25 Anastrozole
Wednesday 27th September = 30mg T, 500iu HCG, .25 Anastrozole

Sunday 1st October = Start phase 1 of the restart using 500iu HCG solo eod for 4-6 weeks.

I'm very OCD hence the 1st October start date lol just like always starting a diet on a Monday! Plus it will give me an indicator if the Anastrozole will give me symptom relief on my TRT dose of 60mg T.

Took a dose already last night 30mg T, 500iu HCG, .25 Anastrozole. Will update progress as I go.

 

[Vintageviking]

Quick update. Woke up this morning with some wood, probably from the hormones rising back up, or the Anastrozole has lowered my high E2. Too early to call, see how I get on the rest of this week.

My heart doctor said my cholesterol is the same as about 60% of his patients and I've just been unlucky that my artery got blocked. My mother had a triple heart bypass at 42. Well I'm 41 so it does run in the family.

New diet in place to tackle my slightly high cholesterol and New workout routine in place. Trying to maximise my chances of keeping in shape and getting fit again while getting off the T.

5,8 height
180lbs
13% Bodyfat

 

[MTNMan6000]

Quick update. Woke up this morning with some wood, probably from the hormones rising back up, or the Anastrozole has lowered my high E2. Too early to call, see how I get on the rest of this week.

My heart doctor said my cholesterol is the same as about 60% of his patients and I've just been unlucky that my artery got blocked. My mother had a triple heart bypass at 42. Well I'm 41 so it does run in the family.

New diet in place to tackle my slightly high cholesterol and New workout routine in place. Trying to maximise my chances of keeping in shape and getting fit again while getting off the T.

5,8 height
180lbs
13% Bodyfat

@Vintageviking - any update? What age did you start testosterone? Thanks

 

[Vintageviking]

@MTNMan6000 - On adding the AI to my current protocol sexual function improved with morning wood also, but busting a nut has remained a struggle. It's something I will go back to if the restart fails. I was mid 20s when I started doing bodybuilding cycles.

Currently on day 3 of HCG only, dropped the T and AI on the 27th and already feeling like this might be a mistake. At my age of 41 nearly 42 having abused gear for over a decade It's highly likely I'm going to end up with a hormone profile that will not be acceptable, or sustainable. ATM feeling rough, had to take 10mg diazipam for anxiety relief, going to ride out these few weeks of HCG and see how it goes

If I was a single guy living alone It wouldn't be as bad attempting this but having a partner who wants a baby and doesn't understand all this can be frustrating and adds a lot of pressure on me.

Years trying this TRT and It's been a wild west show of ups and downs. Trust me when i say I've tried every type of protocol going, from 200mg T to 60mg test and everything in between. AI, no AI, HCG, no HCG. My last protocol which i ran for months was 30mg T 500IU HCG x2 weekly and even though my labs looked great all in range I felt like crap with soft erections and low sex drive, added in the AI at .25 and things improved.

What I don't get is when I was bodybuilding taking 500mg T and other compounds like Tren, or deca I was banging girls regularly, had a awesome build with low bodyfat and basically felt like the King. Not once did I even think about hormones or anything. This was years without any AI or cabergoline. My E2 and prolactin must have been in space somewhere, but I felt amazing. Figure that one out!

Going from a very confident guy banging silly amounts of gear, enjoying life never thinking about hormones, banging chicks at the flick of a switch, looking great, feeling great - to this guy sitting at his computer reading trt forums constantly trying to find a solution on 60mg of T, worried about every little detail. Obviously going back to them stupid doses isn't an option at my age, or in any way advice for anyone reading, this is my personal experience and not a backed up study lol

Summary. - Day 3 HCG only, feeling like crap.

 

[Vintageviking]

Guys, had to stop the restart from mental strain from outside life problems. It wasn't a good time to attempt it. Been running my usual 30mg T and 500iu HCG x2 weekly. After sorting lot of stuff out and stress levels down I think it's time to attempt the restart.

My last shot of T was Thursday morning and today is day 1 of HCG solo. Will run with this at 500iu every other day while waiting for T to clear, possibly 3-4 weeks before pulling labs. Will report back the results and take it from there.

 

[Cynice49]

im almost 6 months into my restart, was on trt for about 6 years. i always had sone anxiety on trt , but since being off the anxiety has pretty much been non stop. ive had some gi issues that i hope is the culprit. i got labs done around the 4/5 month and showed test in the 200s LH: 4.2 and fsh was on the low side in the 2s. how was your restart been?

 

[Vintageviking]

im almost 6 months into my restart, was on trt for about 6 years. i always had sone anxiety on trt , but since being off the anxiety has pretty much been non stop. ive had some gi issues that i hope is the culprit. i got labs done around the 4/5 month and showed test in the 200s LH: 4.2 and fsh was on the low side in the 2s. how was your restart been?

im almost 6 months into my restart, was on trt for about 6 years. i always had sone anxiety on trt , but since being off the anxiety has pretty much been non stop. ive had some gi issues that i hope is the culprit. i got labs done around the 4/5 month and showed test in the 200s LH: 4.2 and fsh was on the low side in the 2s. how was your restart been?

I had to stop as was getting crippling anxiety and panic attacks. My worry is my heart and cholesterol levels. Being low on test is bad for both I believe. After 5 months do you think your levels will improve? I’ve been in the 200s before and felt rubbish. The only reason I wanted to get off was fertility to get my partner pregnant. It’s going to have to be while on trt or not at all. I don’t think I could go 9 months or however long it would take with bottomed out hormones. I’m looking into HCG and HMG combo while maintaining a low dose test protocol.