PCT Log (27 Y/O, 3 years on TRT)

[SeeMac]

Hi all. Have used this forum for info before, but thought I'd make a log here to document my attempt at restarting natural production. Will use nmol/L and mmol/L measurements here for total/free testosterone in the format of total/free. To convert to ng/dl, multiply these numbers by 28.85 for total and .2885 for free. and Some background info:
- 27 years old
- live in Canada
- started TRT august 2021
- bloods showed 16.8/380, only 1 draw. Draw was taken after a day of minor drinking and not great sleep so who knows what I was really at. I had bloodwork done at a local lab when I was 18 (so 2015 ish) but I lost the results, so for curiosity sake I am going to try to track that stuff down. No clue if it still exists or not.
- TRT was prescribed by my family Dr, which from my understanding is rare in Canada, especially given my age and numbers.
- doses ranged from 100-150 mg/week, +- 250 iu/hcg per day. Been off hcg since january, just on 125/week of test C injected EOD.

Why am i coming off? There a few reasons. The first is that I don't think I needed it. I can honestly say I don't think I ever noticed a difference. I felt the same natural as I did on 100mg/week solo (15/450) which felt the same as 150mg/week + hcg (30-32/900-100) which felt the same as 125 + hcg (24/700) which felt the same as 125 solo (20/550). The second is that I am an avid weightlifter, and am reasonably close to some of my long term goals. I would like to do them naturally. The third is that injecting is a PITA.

My last injection of 36mg test C was on thursday May 2nd. Today (saturday May 4th) i started "PCT". PCT plan is as follows:

Day 1-40: 500 IU HCG daily (pharma urinary hcg, rHCG is not available in Canada as far as I am aware)
Day 41: Blood work round 1
Day 42 (optional, not sure if I am doing this yet) - 100mcg triptorelin
Day 42 on: 12.5mg Enclomiphene daily

From day 70 (4 weeks on enclo) on I will get blood work every 4 weeks or so, and adjust the enclo dose accordingly. Plan is to run it for a minimum of 8 weeks, hopefully at 12.5mg daily for 4 and 6.25mg (or 12.5mg EOD) for another 4. Will run longer, or shorter, or adjust dose if needed.

I also plan on using a handful of supplements during this journey. I am writing this 48 hours into a fast (more or less cutting until day 35 or so to lean out and allow me to stuff my face while being lean during the real PCT) so I am not taking anything currently (gonna try to fast for a week or so but may give up), but it will be as follows:
- Taurine: 3-5 g per day (testicular antioxidant, dirt cheap, tasteless Taurine Recovers Testicular Steroidogenesis and Spermatogenesis in Streptozotocin-Induced Diabetic Rats - PubMed The role of taurine in male reproduction: Physiology, pathology and toxicology)
- Grapeseed extract: 400 mg 95% per day (minor AI, good antioxidant, also dirt cheap, good for other stuff like BP, lipids, insulin sensitivity, anti cancer etc Grape Seed Extract benefits, dosage, and side effects)
- NAC: 1200 mg 2-3 times per day while on HCG (Leydig cell protection N-acetylcysteine counteracts oxidative stress and prevents hCG-induced apoptosis in rat Leydig cells through down regulation of caspase-8 and JNK - PubMed)
- Molecularly distilled cod liver oil: 1/2 TBSP per day (retinol seems important for the testicles and I do not eat many eggs/organ meats, vitamin D is good, omega 3 is good)

Will check in intermittently to note my mood etc and will follow up with my blood work results. I am confident I will recover just fine because there isn't a lot of evidence that guys on steroids/TRT don't recover, and the body is fairly resilient. However if I don't, I am fine hopping back on. Just want to coming off a shot, and every passing day makes it a little more unlikely that I'll be successful.

 

[clonda]

I am currently 29 years old. I have been taking TRT for 6 months at 150 mg per week. The analysis that I underwent before starting therapy ranged from 19 to 12 nmol/L. But I realized that the only difference is that I stopped having depressive disorders, I became more confident in my thoughts and behavior, and also became a little more purposeful. As for libido and mood, I didn't notice any improvement.

 

[Vince]

If you guys are not on any ssri. I wonder if just going cold turkey would work ?

 

[SeeMac]

If you guys are not on any ssri. I wonder if just going cold turkey would work ?

Not on SSRIs or any other meds other than TRT.

Could likely go cold turkey as the HAARLEM study indicates PCT doesn't have any long term benefits. However, I've been more or less shut down for 3 years, I know HCG doesn't cause me any sides (besides some back acne but who cares) and enclo seems to be largely well tolerated so I am going to go down that route.

 

[SeeMac]

I am currently 29 years old. I have been taking TRT for 6 months at 150 mg per week. The analysis that I underwent before starting therapy ranged from 19 to 12 nmol/L. But I realized that the only difference is that I stopped having depressive disorders, I became more confident in my thoughts and behavior, and also became a little more purposeful. As for libido and mood, I didn't notice any improvement.

I actually think my libido is the only thing that changed by hopping on TRT, and in a negative way. However it could just be that I'm older than I was prior to TRT.

 

[SeeMac]

Quick update since I'll try to stop in here every week. Still feel fine. Only been 9 days since my last T injection so I wouldn't expect otherwise. Ball size has maybe increased a bit but not as much as I'd expect after 4000 IU of hcg in 8 days. Still have 32 days of HCG left so we'll see how that goes.

Have an appointment with my GP this week to get the lab requisitions. He had me on monthly labs when I started TRT so I am going to probably ask for that again. Also considering asking for a script for triptorelin but although he's fairly liberal, I don't think he'd go for that one.

In other news, I've lost about 13 pounds in 12 days, which is cool. Aim is to get to a 30 inch waist. Started at a hair under 36, and am a hair under 34 now.

 

[Bob62]

Your well researched , I also read that HCG nac study . One caveat I worked out rat weight adjusted human doses HCG they used at 10000 units per day. Yes I added NAC .Need super careful with trip dose . Screw it up and you are dead in the water as I am sure you know, do you really need tript?

 

[SeeMac]

Your well researched , I also read that HCG nac study . One caveat I worked out rat weight adjusted human doses HCG they used at 10000 units per day. Yes I added NAC .Need super careful with trip dose . Screw it up and you are dead in the water as I am sure you know, do you really need tript?

Yeah HCG hasn't really been shown to induce any desentization of leydig cells in humans. There are a few that demonstrate hcg shifts the steroidogenisis cascade a bit, likely due to how long hcg binds to the leydig cells compared to LH, but it seems to be temporary (which can be seen from a bunch of studies showing hcg induces two peaks in T, one ~12h after administration and another ~72 hours after, which is 2x its half life). Also probably not a big deal since even if testosterone production gets somewhat downregulated, the leydig cells are still active, just the enzymatic cascade is producing other weak steroids, so the goal of improving leydig cell function is still being achieved.

 

[SeeMac]

Since I'm here might as well toss in a quick update. Saw my GP and got a monthly lab requisition as well as a sperm analysis. First blood test is this afternoon, which is sooner than I planned but I'm mainly curious to see how my lipids and stuff are doing with a ~1200 calorie/day diet. Still feel fine, normal sex drive etc which is wild due to the lack of T and the heavy caloric restriction. Down about 18 pounds in like 18 or so days and strength has kept decently (hit ~86% of my best barbell OHP for a triple yesterday with an axle). Will likely do the sperm analysis at 100ish days off HCG, so in like 120 days from now.

Also likely going to change the PCT plan a bit. Balls are definitely increasing in size faster than I expected, so I am going to change the duration of HCG to 35 days rather than 40. Last 10k vial with either be 6 days at 500 IU then 10 days at 700IU, or 15 days at 666IU/day, and the timing of that those correspond nicely with when all T should be cleared from my system. Also not going to do the triptorelin. If this attempt is unsuccessful I will give it a shot, but i don't think it is necessary and I really don't trust UGL places dosing microgram amounts accurately. Will also do a sperm analysis 100ish days after cessation of HCG.

Also forgot to mention that I've also been using injectible L-carnitine at 500mg/day. It is dirt cheap to brew, and might help with androgen receptor stuff, so why not. I have like 3000 insulin syringes in my house that soon won't be getting any use so this is a good way to not let them go to waste.

 

[SeeMac]

Kind of surprising blood work results.
Total Testosterone: 30.3 nmol/L (RR 8.4 - 28.8)
Free Testosterone: 823 pmol/L (RR 196 - 636)
Prolactin: 8.0 ug/L (RR 4.0 - 18.0)

So my balls work even better than I expected. Test was taken 27ish hours after the last 500 IU hcg pin. With this info I will stick with the original plan of 500IU for 40 days. I do believe these are inflated a bit due to my cut, as in previous years I would notice a 20-30% increase in FT and 30-40% increase in TT when I would "cut" (crash diet), likely due to my subq injections being mobilized faster and the increase in SHBG due to the heavy restriction. So curious to see what it will be in 4 weeks when all T is cleared, but with this I'm expecting to be at the top of the range. Lipids were also a bit messed up due to the cut, but expected.

 

[Bob62]

great result , tks for the update , encouraging for many people to see this i am sure

 

[SeeMac]

Another weekly update. Still feel fine in all regards, other than starting to get a bit hungry. Start my 2nd vial of HCG today, so 20 days left then move to the enclomiphene. Bloods are booked for June 13th.

 

[SeeMac]

Weekly update:

Still feeling fine. Surprising since 28 days no test and having lost 26 pounds in the past 32 days. Should be 8-9% body fat when the hcg is done, allowing me to hopefully not aromatize too much using the enclo. All is going well.

 

[SeeMac]

Weekly update:

Still feeling fine.

Decided I am going to go ahead with the triptorelin. Got 5mg from somewhere I trust. Bloods are scheduled for next tuesday. Plan for now is to continue 500IU daily of HCG until Monday, then bloods on tuesday and shoot the remainder of my HCG tuesday afternoon. Then 100mcg triptorelin on Friday. Will start enclo on the following monday likely.

 

[SeeMac]

Update a bit early here. Got bloods yesterday 24ish hours after my 39th 500IU injection of HCG and 40 days of no T.

Testosterone: 37.6 nmol/L (RR 8.4 - 28.8)
Free Testosterone: 911 pmol/L (RR 196 - 636)

Quite surprising. Was actually kind of hoping for it to be a lot lower, since I feel great and that would mean I don't need high T levels. But my balls work great, so now I just need to get the pituitary firing. Also relieving since I know that if I ever need to hop back on TRT, I will be able to use HCG monotherapy (plus some rFSH or HMG) to regain fertility. Part of the reason I wanted to come off was the worry of how shitty things would possibly be if I had to hop off, but at least now I know I'd be fine.

Last pin of 500 IU of HCG is today then will dose 100mcg of triptorelin on friday and start 12.5mg of enclo on monday. I've read differing reports on the efficacy of freezing pins of a reconstituted peptide, but I am going to freeze 5-10 pins of 100mcg of triptorelin when I mix it just in case.

 

[SeeMac]

Quick update:

Just injected 100mcg of triptorelin acetate, and froze 5 pins of 100mcg. No clue if they will stay or not, and I hope I don't need to use them, but it seemed dumb to mix 5mg and throw away 4.9.

Will start enclomiphene on Monday.

 

[SeeMac]

Weekly update:

Still feeling fine. Today is 6th day of 12.5mg enclo daily. Eyes seem to be more sensitive to light, but I also had HPPD (coolest disorder ever btw) many years ago and I had some "fun" last weekend which tends to bring the HPPD back up to the surface for a week or so. So I don't think the enclo is messing with my eyes yet.

 

[SeeMac]

Weekly update:

Still doing well. Still don't notice any difference from being on. Blood work is scheduled for this friday so we'll see how everything is looking.

 

[SeeMac]

Update (07/12)
Been on 12.5mg/day of enclomiphene for 24 days, and am 28 days post triptorelin shot. Got bloods yesterday. The results are:

Total Testosterone: 22.2 nmol/L (RR 8.4 - 28.8)
Free Testosterone: 469 pmol/L (RR 196 - 636)
LH: 3.7 IU/L (RR 1.0 - 7.0)
FSH: 7.1 IU/L (RR 1.0 - 8.0)
Prolactin: 9.2 ug/L (RR 4.0 - 19.0)

Still feeling fine. The lower LH indicates what my hcg experienced showed which is that my testicles didn't suffer any damage from TRT. Sex drive etc are still great and since I haven't noticed any changes from being on HCG, I was planning on dropping to 12.5mg EOD of enclo. However, since my LH is a little lower than expected, I will probably stick with the 12.5mg daily for a bit. I've seem some reports of it taking 3-5 weeks of enclomiphene use to get full pituitary function back. Will get bloods in three weeks or so.

All in all this has been a successful experiment so far. I don't think I've been hypogonadal at all through the entire time. Since the goal of PCT is to basically find a way to not be hypogonadal while not suppressing your system so time can do its thing, this has been as successful as you can really ask for. I've learned a few things:
1) My balls work
2) I tolerate enclomiphene well
3) My original hunch about not being sensitive to high/low testosterone seems to be true. I haven't felt different at all since stopping.

 

[HarryCruick]

After reading this I might try something like it. I've been on TRT for 12 months.

My n/mol is currently sitting at about 40 taking 150mg/wk

I need my balls to work again due to not taking HCG at all.

I could just run the HCG with 100mg/wk of test but the same as you I'm not sure I feel that much different from before. I'm certainly stronger and bigger but nothing ridiculous and that's not a trade I'm willing to take now to not have kids.

How did you come to the conclusion that was the best "PCT" for you?

Currently, I'm torn between staying on 100mg/wk and 1500iu/wk or coming off TRT completely until I've had kids but this would involve running HCG in the sameish doses as you.

Regarding the Enclomiphene, it seems to have worked for you, interestingly I'd have never put something like in, I'd probably have just gone with HCG and then Clomid but you have swayed me on that.