Peak & trough timing on daily subq injections?

[Vman]

I'm on daily subcutaneous testosterone cypionate injections and my doctor always has me do my labs in a 4-5 hour window post injection.

I know T levels are pretty stable on daily injections but does anyone know the timing of the peak and trough for daily subq cypionate injections?

I just want to know if 4-5 hours post injection is peak, close to peak, average, close to trough, or trough.

I've done a lot of searching and am having trouble finding the pharmacokinetics of subcutaneous testosterone cypionate injections for the first 24 hours.

 

[antelopers]

I'm on daily subcutaneous testosterone cypionate injections and my doctor always has me do my labs in a 4-5 hour window post injection.

I know T levels are pretty stable on daily injections but does anyone know the timing of the peak and trough for daily subq cypionate injections?

I just want to know if 4-5 hours post injection is peak, close to peak, average, close to trough, or trough.

I've done a lot of searching and am having trouble finding the pharmacokinetics of subcutaneous testosterone cypionate injections for the first 24 hours.

Your trough and peak should not be wildly different no matter what time of day if you're doing daily cyp. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Cataceous]

Indeed, with daily cypionate you're probably getting at most a few percent variation in total testosterone. Best guess for a peak is at about 12 hours post-injection. The trough is likely less than an hour post-injection.

 

[Vince Carter]

I don't see a rise in my T levels for 12 hours from a 16mg injection. I ran labs at 8, 12 and 28hrs. I have a very pronounced peak and trough. My Free E doubles to over the lab range @ 12hrs, too. Don't put too much stock in to stability, you might be very surprised at what you can see in those hours post injection, I was.

 

[Cataceous]

On testosterone enanthate EOD I had five measurements over three years, all in the range of 750-800 ng/dL.

 

[Vman]

I don't see a rise in my T levels for 12 hours from a 16mg injection. I ran labs at 8, 12 and 28hrs. I have a very pronounced peak and trough. My Free E doubles to over the lab range @ 12hrs, too. Don't put too much stock in to stability, you might be very surprised at what you can see in those hours post injection, I was.

Fascinating. No rise in T at 12 hours, but E doubled. This is exactly the type of data I'm looking for. I really wish someone did a study on daily injections that showed T (and E) levels every hour or two for days or weeks. That'd be awesome.

 

[Cataceous]

Fascinating. No rise in T at 12 hours, but E doubled. This is exactly the type of data I'm looking for. I really wish someone did a study on daily injections that showed T (and E) levels every hour or two for days or weeks. That'd be awesome.

I can't get access to the thread, but here's part of what VC wrote in "8/12/28hr T and E snapshot":

16mg/D Cyp @ 4AM 8hrs post injection (12Noon) TT 928 FT 214.6(H) E2 14 E standard 7 Free E 0.16 12hrs post injection (4PM) TT 1086(H) FT 311.4(H) E2 17 E standard 22 Free E 0.53(H) 28hrs post injection (830AM) TT 1036 FT 312.8 E2 24 E standard 11 Free...

Unfortunately there's not a pre-injection baseline. @Vince Carter what was your SHBG around then? What is the missing free estradiol value?

 

[Vince Carter]

Fascinating. No rise in T at 12 hours, but E doubled. This is exactly the type of data I'm looking for. I really wish someone did a study on daily injections that showed T (and E) levels every hour or two for days or weeks. That'd be awesome.

Im coming back up at 12hrs post but yes Free E doubles to over the lab range.

 

[Vince Carter]

16mg/D Cyp @ 4AM
8hrs post injection (12Noon) TT 928 FT 214.6(H) E2 14 E standard 7 Free E 0.16
12hrs post injection (4PM) TT 1086(H) FT 311.4(H) E2 17 E standard 22 Free E 0.53(H)
28hrs post injection (830AM) TT 1036 FT 312.8 E2 24 E standard 11 Free E 0.27...

bolded....SHBG hovers @ 12

 

[Cataceous]

16mg/D Cyp @ 4AM
8hrs post injection (12Noon) TT 928 FT 214.6(H) E2 14 E standard 7 Free E 0.16
12hrs post injection (4PM) TT 1086(H) FT 311.4(H) E2 17 E standard 22 Free E 0.53(H)
28hrs post injection (830AM) TT 1036 FT 312.8 E2 24 E standard 11 Free E 0.27...

bolded....SHBG hovers @ 12

Really interesting to crunch the numbers in reverse to see what calculated total estradiol results in the measured free estradiol. Then look at the ratios to see which is more consistent:

The non-sensitive test is the clear winner, with the sensitive test throwing out a totally anomalous result in the middle. This matches my experience and that of @Gman86 . Basically, it looks like you can get a very good estimate for free estradiol by taking three quarters of your non-sensitive estradiol result and plugging it into the free estradiol calculator.

 

[Vman]

16mg/D Cyp @ 4AM
8hrs post injection (12Noon) TT 928 FT 214.6(H) E2 14 E standard 7 Free E 0.16
12hrs post injection (4PM) TT 1086(H) FT 311.4(H) E2 17 E standard 22 Free E 0.53(H)
28hrs post injection (830AM) TT 1036 FT 312.8 E2 24 E standard 11 Free E 0.27...

Was this on 16mg cypionate daily? If yes, did you have an injection the day before this one or was this the first injection? In other words, are your numbers at 8hrs already trending up or were they flat compared to pre-injection? Also, did you inject again before the final lab at 28hrs was run?

Really interesting to crunch the numbers in reverse to see what calculated total estradiol results in the measured free estradiol. Then look at the ratios to see which is more consistent:

View attachment 8420
The non-sensitive test is the clear winner, with the sensitive test throwing out a totally anomalous result in the middle. This matches my experience and that of @Gman86 . Basically, it looks like you can get a very good estimate for free estradiol by taking three quarters of your non-sensitive estradiol result and plugging it into the free estradiol calculator.

So, going off E2 non-sensitive, it shows that E2 spikes very quickly and drops off way faster than the dropoff in TT and FT. I was under the impression that E2 drops off way slower than TT and FT. Is this thinking wrong?

Also, the E2 sensitive shows E2 gradually increasing over the 28 hours which would go with the whole E follows T line of thought.

Is there a clear winner as to which E2 test we should be running?

 

[Vince Carter]

I think I get my best feeling when my E2 sens is in the single digits, by experience, when it mirrors my SHBG value or a little less. Though the rise and peak after 8hrs, the Free E, might explain being overly tired, unmotivated, reduced libido, after 4pm and then overly warm/hot in bed overnite, etc etc etc

I should say that those numbers above are all with .25mg Anastrozole, PER DAY. We tried an additional AI dose of .125mg in the afternoon hours to fight the Estrogen peak but it didn't make any appreciable difference.

I'm strongly considering the cream to the scrotum and abandoning injections entirely, I aromatase, A LOT, as shown and I'm very sensitive to even a little bit of E.

 

[Cataceous]

...
So, going off E2 non-sensitive, it shows that E2 spikes very quickly and drops off way faster than the dropoff in TT and FT. I was under the impression that E2 drops off way slower than TT and FT. Is this thinking wrong?

Also, the E2 sensitive shows E2 gradually increasing over the 28 hours which would go with the whole E follows T line of thought.

Is there a clear winner as to which E2 test we should be running?

I'm going to say that, regarding estradiol, Vince's numbers seem to be out of the ordinary and may not reflect what most guys would see. There's no big spike in testosterone to drive the spike in estradiol. And I suspect that even though it's only ~10% off the others, the first testosterone measurement is inaccurate and should be much closer to the other two, as is pretty much guaranteed with daily injections of a long-lived testosterone ester. This makes it pretty hard to come up with a plausible explanation for the estradiol surge. If this were repeatable it would point to something not previously characterized. Bear in mind that studies of normal men show only about 10-20% diurnal variation in estradiol and very little change in SHBG, meaning free estradiol is relatively static. Estradiol does indeed usually follow testosterone.

The sensitive estradiol test, though more accurate when done right, is also prone to very large errors when the technique is not perfect. The non-sensitive test is very reliable and repeatable, but is subject to positive systematic bias due to false recognition of other substances as estradiol. There's no clear winner between the tests, but if you find the bias of the non-sensitive test to be consistent then it will give more reliable results overall if you use it and correct for the bias. It would be interesting to see how well this works with other measurements from Vince now that we've determined that his non-sensitive results should be multiplied by 0.75.

 

[Vman]

I'm strongly considering the cream to the scrotum and abandoning injections entirely, I aromatase, A LOT, as shown and I'm very sensitive to even a little bit of E.

I felt absolutely amazing on the scrotal cream. Energy and libido were off the charts for me. Plus I slept much better on the cream. Unfortunately, I was not a good absorber (applying 2g 2xday only got me to 190 FT) and it also caused unresolvable skin irritation so I had to switch to injections. 80% of my doc's patients are on cream. My doc is on cream as well. I will say that daily injections are far more convenient for me than the cream though. Oh, and applying 4g of compounded cream daily cost me $200/mo. My injections cost $28/mo. including syringes, needles and swabs. The cost of cream is directly proportional to how much you need. 1g 2xday was costing me $100/mo.

The sensitive estradiol test, though more accurate when done right, is also prone to very large errors when the technique is not perfect. The non-sensitive test is very reliable and repeatable, but is subject to positive systematic bias due to false recognition of other substances as estradiol. There's no clear winner between the tests, but if you find the bias of the non-sensitive test to be consistent then it will give more reliable results overall if you use it and correct for the bias.

This is all good stuff. Thank you very much for taking the time to post about the differences between the tests.

 

[Vince Carter]

was it you or some one else that had their blood draw all wrong on the cream, was treating it like injections in a trough which is wrong, cream is always applied ~3hrs prior. @Vman

 

[Vman]

was it you or some one else that had their blood draw all wrong on the cream, was treating it like injections in a trough which is wrong, cream is always applied ~3hrs prior. @Vman

My doc always had my labs drawn 4-5 hours after applying the cream.

 

[stv]

I felt absolutely amazing on the scrotal cream. Energy and libido were off the charts for me. Plus I slept much better on the cream. Unfortunately, I was not a good absorber (applying 2g 2xday only got me to 190 FT) and it also caused unresolvable skin irritation so I had to switch to injections. 80% of my doc's patients are on cream. My doc is on cream as well. I will say that daily injections are far more convenient for me than the cream though. Oh, and applying 4g of compounded cream daily cost me $200/mo. My injections cost $28/mo. including syringes, needles and swabs. The cost of cream is directly proportional to how much you need. 1g 2xday was costing me $100/mo.



This is all good stuff. Thank you very much for taking the time to post about the differences between the tests.

Vman on how much daily Test are you? Any Hcg? What levels TT, FT, E2, do you have? Any A.I.? Thanks

 

[stv]

Any guys on daily sustanon?

I'm on daily Enanthate 15mg TT 860(360-990), around 4 hours after the shot I can feel a hit of test kicking in and 6-8 hours after the shot another hit and have more energy during the evening and night. I wake up low and picks up a bit at 12pm and around 4-6pm I feel good, and with more energy during the night. I don't feel it even through out the day.

Wondering if with sustanon it would better as there are faster acting tests in it along side the long acting ones.

I was on 17.5mg TT 1060 (360-990 ) daily and would have stayed there as I felt better and didn't feel the variation as pronounced (it was more even, however I could still feel picking up in the afternoon and more energy in the evening), but it was raising my pulse/heart rate (not blood pressure) to high 90's whenever I moved from being still, or walking calmly to 105-110, and I felt uncomfortable because of it, short of breath, etc. Any thing that can lower the heart rate?
Thanks

 

[Vman]

Vman on how much daily Test are you? Any Hcg? What levels TT, FT, E2, do you have? Any A.I.? Thanks

I am on 18mg of test cypionate ED. No HCG. No AI. I don't have numbers on 18mg ED as I just lowered my dose 3 weeks ago from 20mg ED. On 20mg ED I was TT 1090 ng/dL, FT 280 pg/mL, E2 57.2 pg/mL (non-sensitive, I know wrong it's the wrong test).