What is Nandrolone effect when combined with TRT?

[PAUL-E]

For those on or experience with TRT and nandrolone
Did the nandrolone effect total T, free T, E2, SHBG, or any other labs?
I have read some labs read nandrolone as testosterone adding to T levels is that still true?
If using for joint pain, osteoporosis, osteopenia, or etc.. what was a effective dose for you?
Did it effect your BP?
Thanks

 

[CoastWatcher]

There's excellent material on the Forum dealing with the various aspects of nandrolone.

Does anyone use Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin) ?

Nelson's post, number five, in this thread is wide-ranging.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Beyond testosterone: The use of nandrolone in male health and wellness

Read more at: Beyond testosterone: The use of nandrolone in male health and wellness

 

[PAUL-E]

Thanks, good information
Nelson since you were on therapeutic doses for a decade what is your opinion of it?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

It's a great drug for mass, but you should always use it with testosterone.

It's effect on visceral fat is disturbing compared to oxandrolone.

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

 

[Re-Ride]

Nelson, we know you meant always be sure to use deca with testosterone. Very few posts on this steroid mention increased visceral fat or decreased thigh diameter which the study also mentions. I'm wondering at what dose. These are drawbacks for the approved or off label uses such as restoring lean mass in persons with HIV. Relief from joint pain involves lower doses. Perhaps we can discuss dosing and frequency here for those who wish to avoid the side effects.

2mg per week per pound: i.e 400 mg per week for a 200 pound male. This dosing level is mentioned on the body building forums.

Dosing frequency citations are from twice per week to once every other week. I haven't had a chance to read Built to Survive. Nelson's book is undoubtedly a more reliable source on nadrolone than likely to be found anywhere. Without wanting to alienate our body builder friends whom we owe so much to for their pioneering discoveries, those seeking a makeover as a nandroid are probably reading this instead:
http://www.anabolic-bible.org/Profile.aspx?callpage=Deca_Durabolin

A few end up on threads like this
Test/Nandralone Cycle Messed Me Up. Advice on Second One?

where Yogi1 writes:
we've seen it ten million times on this forum alone. Long term ****ed upness from nandrolone use is a very real thing. There's poor bastards who still haven't had their libido return YEARS after a deca cycle, long after their prolactin and everything comes back to normal. There's more to it than (high prolactin) ... although theories differ as to what it actually is.

I was lucky in that it only lasted a few months, but I'll never touch a progesterone derivative again, which sucks because everyone talks about how great tren is.
So now I just stick to test and dbol or anavar. I suggest you do the same.
---


Proper dosing and use is essential. If you only read 16 year old studies like this:
Human study: the effects of 600 mg nandrolone decanoate per week
one might be tempted to try 600 mg/week, while today you are more likely to read about 60-120 mg / week for therapeutic dosing.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I don't think many TRT prescribers are going to write scripts for Deca.

 

[Re-Ride]

I don't think many TRT prescribers are going to write scripts for Deca.

You've got that right! Then there are those among us who qualify due to anemia, HIV and to a lesser extent joint pain. Other members may be tempted by pharmaceutical sources from Mexico and Europe. No one here is suggesting the latter since importing is strictly prohibited even if you have a script. Disusing the minimum safe and effective dose has its place on these pages. Assuming one has access informed participation with the presciber is considerably more difficult than with T.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You've got that right! Then there are those among us who qualify due to anemia, HIV and to a lesser extent joint pain. Other members may be tempted by pharmaceutical sources from Mexico and Europe. No one here is suggesting the latter since importing is strictly prohibited even if you have a script. Disusing the minimum safe and effective dose has its place on these pages. Assuming one has access informed participation with the presciber is considerably more difficult than with T.

I am sure you can find a prescriber that would but it would be tough. I know of one who rx'd Anavar for a friend of mine. Deca is tempting because it makes you big and strong but prescribers aren't going to say its practical for TRT.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

FREE Nelson's First Book: Built to Survive- Medical Use of Anabolic Steroids

Read more at: Medical Use of Anabolic Steroids: Free Book

 

[PAUL-E]

Beyond testosterone cypionate: evidence behind the use of nandrolone in male health and wellness
abstract
Characterized by low serum testosterone levels and diverse symptoms, male hypogonadism is a common condition. Current medical treatment focuses on testosterone supplementation using multiple modalities such as injections, gels and pellets. Interestingly, while testosterone is considered an anabolic androgenic steroid, it has not been saddled with the social stigma that other, similar medications have. The goal of this review is to highlight an anabolic steroid, 19-nortestosterone (i.e., nandrolone, deca-durabolin) and illustrate prospective therapeutic applications for male health. Containing a chemical structure similar to testosterone, nandrolone has a higher myotrophic: androgenic ratio resulting in improved effects on muscle mass. Animal models have suggested application in the improvement of joint healing following rotator cuff repair. Minimal literature exists regarding the use of nandrolone and, as such, further human studies are required.
introduction
Male hypogonadism is a clinical entity characterized by symptoms such as fatigue, erectile dysfunction (ED) and mood changes associated with decreased serum levels of testosterone (1). Treatment of hypogonadism involves the exogenous supplementation of testosterone and may be complemented with other medications such as human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and clomiphene citrate (clomid) (2-4). With the increasing rise in incidence of male hypogonadism, and the growing knowledge of the roles for testosterone in male health, other pharmacological steroid compounds should be evaluated to either supplement, and/or replace testosterone in the treatment of male health.
Unfortunately, numerous well-published media reports dealing with anabolic steroids in professional and Olympic athletes have brought a cloud of speculation and doubt regarding use of these “illicit” medications. The fact that these anabolic steroid medications are banned by numerous athletic associations such as the International Olympic Committee as well as the National Football and Basketball Associations and Major League Baseball, further re-enforces the public perception that these medications should not be used under any circumstances. Indeed, a recent study (5) evaluated healthcare-provider attitudes towards anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) and found that AAS users were viewed less favorably that cocaine abusers or healthy adults. These perceptions were enhanced by the passage of the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 that listed anabolic steroids as schedule III controlled substances—similar to ketamine, opiates and morphine (6). This policy mandated that a physician prescription was necessary to obtain the medication; further challenging the opinion of the general public. As such, it is tempting to speculate that investigations into alternatives to testosterone therapy have been slowed by societal stigma and perception.
An anabolic steroid that has been investigated to some degree in the treatment of male health is 19-nortestosterone (or nandrolone, deca-durabolin). This synthetic anabolic steroid has been available for decades and has been studied in multiple clinical pathologies. Early investigations of nandrolone focused on its potential uses in the treatment of osteoporosis. In that setting, it increased gastrointestinal and renal tubular absorption of calcium and decreased bone reabsorption (7). Nandrolone also had the beneficial effects of stimulating the formation of extra-osseous collagen and soft tissue (7). However, as would be expected, ~50% of women who were prescribed nandrolone reported some component of virilization (7). Due, in part, to these adverse effects, and the development of newer and more effective therapies to treat osteoperosis (i.e., bisphosphonates), nandrolone never gained traction as an effective clinical adjunct for this indication. Despite this, nandrolone’s stimulatory effects on bone and soft tissues became the basis upon which some researchers suggested its use in anemia and muscle wasting secondary to hemodialysis and/or HIV (8,9). Furthermore, recent studies have investigated the effects of nandrolone in the treatment of chronic pulmonary obstructive disease (10,11). In the context of the current review that examines the potential uses for anabolic steroids in male health, nandrolone was chosen as a case study. Details regarding its pharmacology as well as its potential uses in male health were explored.
Nandralone and alopecia
TST in hypogonadal men results in elevated levels of free serum testosterone and, in turn, DHT. This occurs due to conversion of testosterone to DHT via 5AR inhibitors (5ARi) (19,20). Androgenic alopecia, or male pattern hair loss, typically occurs in 20% of 20-year-old men and then increases by approximately 10% every 10 years (21). A critical role for DHT in hair growth can be seen in the case study of men with Imperato-McGinley syndrome. This condition results from a mutation in the gene for type II 5AR that prevents the expression of the enzyme. As a consequence, men with this condition never become bald (22).
Androgen dependent miniaturization of scalp hair follicles by DHT is implicated as the primary cause of alopecia (23). Controlled clinical trials demonstrated that use of finasteride resulted in decreased accumulation of DHT and improvements in both subjective and objective assessments of hair growth and density (23).
Indeed, the most established management paradigm for the treatment of alopecia in the male is finasteride (24). First approved in 1992 in the treatment of benign prostatic hypertrophy, finasteride was approved for the treatment of alopecia in 1997 at a dose of 1 mg daily (propecia[SUP]®[/SUP]) (24). In men on TST, finasteride at 1 mg is used as a means of preventing the excess exogenously administered testosterone from converting to DHT. By decreasing the amount of DHT, less is available to act on the hair follicles stabilizing the amount of hair loss.
The theory underlying the possible use of nandrolone in the context of alopecia results from the fact that it does not convert to DHT but instead gets transformed into 5α-dihydro-19-nortestosterone, a molecularly distinct compound (15,25). It is thus possible that in hypogonadal males nandrolone, in addition to or in replacement for testosterone, could alleviate concerns for the development of androgenic alopecia.
There are several lines of evidence that make this hypothesis particularly appealing. In experimental animal models, nandrolone is synthesized endogenously through a mechanism distinct from DHT (25). Furthermore, the metabolism of nandrolone in animal models yields compounds completely unrelated to DHT (15,26). It has also been proven that the actions of 5AR on nandrolone produce a compound that has decreased affinity and activity at the androgen receptor (15). Given that nandrolone is not converted to DHT it seems logical to assume that it would have less effect on hair loss than exogenous testosterone (with its subsequent conversion to DHT). Thus, nandrolone may be beneficial in treating hypogonadal men concerned about alopecia in the setting of TST.
Another aspect of this discussion also involves consideration for the possible existence of persistent sexual side effects and anxiety/depressive symptoms reported with the use of 5ARis like finasteride (27,28). Some symptoms of which have been shown to last for months to years (29). Therefore, by utilizing an agent with less direct effects on hair loss, nandrolone may represent a viable option for men in the treatment of hypogonadism. Altered levels of neuroactive steroids related to depressive symptoms have been identified in men with a history of finasteride use, even when the drug has been discontinued (30). The use of nandrolone would obviate these concerns.
Nandrolone and joint healing
Recent studies in animal models have identified a potential role for nandrolone in joint pain, particularly post rotator cuff tears (31,32). In one such study by Gerber et al. (31), 20 New Zealand white rabbits had their supraspinatus tendon released with musculotendinous retraction and observed over 6 weeks. Rabbits were organized into groups treated with placebo as well as local and systemic administration of nandrolone (31). Nandrolone, given in the phase after tendon release, was found to inhibit fatty infiltration of the supraspinatus muscle and reduced functional impairment of the rotator cuff (31).An earlier 2010 study by Papaspiliopoulos et al. (32) examined 48 male rabbits that underwent rotator cuff incision and reconstruction after stratification into groups based on local nandrolone administration and immobilization. In this study, local administration of nandrolone proved detrimental to wound healing however, systemic administration was not studied (32). Other limitations include the fact that anabolic steroids affect the tensile strength of tendons that may then cause failure with less elongation (33). Local administration of nandrolone may impair the healing of acute tendon injuries and the perceived benefits to retracted muscle may be outweighed by its effects on tendon healing (34).
Interestingly, Internet and discussion group anecdotal data suggests that nandrolone is effective in decreasing joint pain in bodybuilders. These athletes lift large amounts of weights putting extreme pressure on their joints while reporting improvement and lowered pain with the use of nandrolone. While limited data is available, and dosages are unknown, further investigations are needed to determine the effects of nandrolone on joints in general, and the rotator cuff in particular.
Nandrolone and muscle growth
Nandrolone has long been known to have significant stimulatory effects on muscle growth. As described above, nandrolone displays a greater myotrophic:androgenic ratio compared to testosterone (15). When compared to testosterone, the high levels of 5AR in androgenic tissues (i.e., the prostate) convert nandrolone to a less active metabolite (versus DHT that is highly active). Furthermore, the lack of 5AR in skeletal muscle allows nandrolone to produce a primarily anabolic/myotrophic (i.e., muscle growing) effect (15). The ability of nandrolone to preferentially stimulate muscle growth formed the basis of its use in the treatment of anorexia and cachexia in patients with chronic medical disorders such as chronic renal failure and HIV (8,35). In these patients, administration of nandrolone has been shown to increase lean body mass as well as muscle mass and strength (8,35).
Hypogonadism has been shown to be associated with dyslipidemia, atherosclerosis, cardiovascular disease, metabolic syndrome, and diabetes (36). Testosterone supplementation in hypogonadal men improves these risk factors leading, in some patients, to complete resolution of their metabolic syndrome (36-38). Indeed, an increase in lean body mass and muscle mass with the systemic administration of nandrolone could improve body composition and augment testosterone’s effects in preventing (39) and reversing metabolic syndrome and the risk of type 2 diabetes in hypogonadal men.
Discussion
Nandrolone is a synthetic anabolic steroid that possesses unique qualities and is potentially beneficial in the treatment of male health alone, or as an adjunct to TST for hypogonadal men. Nandrolone has a relatively long half-life in the plasma and a strong binding affinity for androgen receptors. The lack of conversion to DHT could mean decreased hair loss in men undergoing TST suggesting a novel use for this medication in a subpopulation of hypogonadal men. Furthermore, in men with voiding dysfunction due to benign prostatic hypertrophy, the reduction of nandrolone by 5AR to generate a weaker androgen (compared to DHT) that does not stimulate the growth of androgenic tissues such as the prostate could serve as another indicator for its use. Nandrolone preferentially stimulates growth of skeletal muscle and lean body mass that may provide benefit in reducing components of metabolic syndrome. Moreover, preliminary work on nandrolone has suggested a potential role in the treatment of joint healing, particularly in rotator cuff injuries.
Limitations to the use of nandrolone include the potential for ED via suppression of the HPG axis. The lack of conversion to DHT and the concurrent increase in serum estrogens may mediate this effect. Administration of low doses of testosterone, along with nandrolone, would alleviate these effects. Further research is needed to evaluate nandrolone’s potential role in the management of male health.
Conclusions
Characterized by low serum testosterone and a multitude of debilitating symptoms, male hypogonadism is a common condition. Primarily treated with exogenous testosterone replacement, novel adjuncts to improve responses and decrease side effects are being studied. Nandrolone is an anabolic steroid compound with a high myotrophic:anabolic ratio. In this manuscript, we have explored the potential uses for nandrolone in male health. Specifically, we have reviewed the pharmacology of nandrolone and detailed a potential role for nandrolone in joint healing and muscle growth. Finally, a consideration was given to the potential adverse effects of nandrolone on ED. Further research in human subjects is required.
Beyond testosterone cypionate: evidence behind the use of nandrolone in male health and wellness

 

[PAUL-E]

I had another question, I searched but couldn't find the answer. If your on TRT and you add Nandrolone will that result in more free testosterone?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Yes, all anabolics (and higher doses of TRT) decrease SHBG and increase free T

 

[PAUL-E]

Thanks nelson I was thinking it would since they both attach to the androgen receptors but was not sure.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

SHBG does not "see" the difference between T and an anabolic molecule

 

[broken7]

I've had it show up as testosterone on labs.
I wonder if other androgens like primobolan would also show up as testosterone.

For those on or experience with TRT and nandrolone
Did the nandrolone effect total T, free T, E2, SHBG, or any other labs?
I have read some labs read nandrolone as testosterone adding to T levels is that still true?
If using for joint pain, osteoporosis, osteopenia, or etc.. what was a effective dose for you?
Did it effect your BP?
Thanks

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

It's a great drug for mass, but you should always use it with testosterone.

It's effect on visceral fat is disturbing compared to oxandrolone.

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Injectable nandrolone will make fatty liver worse? Hold up Lipshultz prescribed this to me . I should stop right?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Injectable nandrolone will make fatty liver worse? Hold up Lipshultz prescribed this to me . I should stop right?

Who said liver fat ?
The study (abstract. I have never been able to find the full PDF ). Small sample size of obese men who did not exercise. You may not want to extrapolate from a small group like this.