Low dose nandrolone with low dose testosterone

[nathan toney]

Greetings everyone,
I am 48 years old. 5'5", 150 lbs, 15% body fat. Currently doing a mild ketogenic diet to lose some adipose and bloat. I D/C'd t cyp at 87 mg/week via 3.5 injections per week due to bloat, high E2 symptoms, and no "benefit" on 12/13/19. I cannot tolerate ANY AI. I use zinc at 50mg qd. I have tried every "natural" AI. Currently I am on clomid 25mg qd until at the earliest April but may go longer. I have been on and off TRT in various forms since 2011. My main reasons for discontinuation are a combination of high E2 symptoms and the trt "stops working" (which is of course inter-related). I have tried as low as 49 mg t cyp per week via daily injections shallow IM and as high as 400mg t cyp Q 3 weeks and just about every dose, schedule, and type of testosterone in between. I have tried 16 different protocols over the last 9 years. I am curious about low dose Nandrolone as I have DISH disease with tendon and enthesis pain in many joints (elbows, achilles, low back, knees, etc).

Questions:

What would be the LOWEST dose of T Cyp and an equal amount of Nandrolone per week I could see benefits with? 50mg/50mg?

Any other therapeutic low dose AAS to consider?

I've heard about benefits from 25mg oral Stanazolol per week with TRT but i am recovering from a patellar tendon rupture surgery (3.5 months post op) and I understand Winstrol is hard on tendons (but it can lower shbg - mine is around 50).
Is it best to determine dose via the TOTAL mg of products being injected? Meaning if I aromatize too much at 87mg T Cyp per week then I will have the same or worse E2 difficulties at 50mg nandrolone and 50 mg T Cyp combined?

If I have trouble tolerating a therapeutic dose of testosterone due to high E2 symptoms can Nandrolone "make up the difference" or would I still have low testosterone symptoms?

Does Nandrolone have an AI type effect - or is it that it has a low androgenicity as compared to testosterone?

Could Clomid have any AI type benefit at 25mg per day with nandrolone and T Cyp on board?

Thank you,
Nate

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Some comments:
-I would try an elimination diet, possibly carnivore for your joint pain. It could be caused by some form of food sensitivity that is causing joint inflammation. That was the case for me as whey protein caused me joint pain which resolved completely when I stopped it.
- My lab rat saw nandrolone gym and joint benefits at 35mg per week (short ester) however that was after I resolved the food sensitivity. Point being, don't just suppress the pain, resolve the cause if possible
- I am no expert, but I believe Boldenone, Masteron and Proviron may all have AI-like affects.
- Clomid can have both anti-estrogen and pro-estrogen affects. I would try a lower dose like 12mg every other day to start with.
- I would focus on locally injected BPC 157 and TB 500, as well as topical DMSO for tendon healing

 

[DS3]

Greetings everyone,
I am 48 years old. 5'5", 150 lbs, 15% body fat. Currently doing a mild ketogenic diet to lose some adipose and bloat. I D/C'd t cyp at 87 mg/week via 3.5 injections per week due to bloat, high E2 symptoms, and no "benefit" on 12/13/19. I cannot tolerate ANY AI. I use zinc at 50mg qd. I have tried every "natural" AI. Currently I am on clomid 25mg qd until at the earliest April but may go longer. I have been on and off TRT in various forms since 2011. My main reasons for discontinuation are a combination of high E2 symptoms and the trt "stops working" (which is of course inter-related). I have tried as low as 49 mg t cyp per week via daily injections shallow IM and as high as 400mg t cyp Q 3 weeks and just about every dose, schedule, and type of testosterone in between. I have tried 16 different protocols over the last 9 years. I am curious about low dose Nandrolone as I have DISH disease with tendon and enthesis pain in many joints (elbows, achilles, low back, knees, etc).
Questions:
What would be the LOWEST dose of T Cyp and an equal amount of Nandrolone per week I could see benefits with? 50mg/50mg?
Any other therapeutic low dose AAS to consider?
I've heard about benefits from 25mg oral Stanazolol per week with TRT but i am recovering from a patellar tendon rupture surgery (3.5 months post op) and I understand Winstrol is hard on tendons (but it can lower shbg - mine is around 50).
Is it best to determine dose via the TOTAL mg of products being injected? Meaning if I aromitize too much at 87mg T Cyp per week then I will have the same or worse E2 difficulties at 50mg nandrolone and 50 mg T Cyp combined?
If I have trouble tolerating a therapeutic dose of testosterone due to high E2 symptoms can Nandrolone "make up the difference" or would I still have low testosterone symptoms?
Does Nandrolone have an AI type effect - or is it that it has a low androgenicity as compared to testosterone?
Could Clomid have any AI type benefit at 25mg per day with nandrolone and T Cyp on board?
Thank you,
Nate

Nathan,

Lots of questions you pose. I will aim to answer a few from my personal experience.

1. Will nandrolone help with estrogen issues? I believe most people on this forum will say that nandrolone will likely increase estrogen issues, likely as a result of increased free T via the reduction of SHBG. However, in my personal experience, I have found that estrogen-related side effects I feel from Test are indeed mitigated by taking nandrolone. The only explanation I have for this is that there is competitive binding at the androgen receptor between nandrolone and exogenous testosterone, so perhaps less testosterone is attaching to the receptors and thus less estrogen is able to convert.

2. AIs crash my estrogen. While not always quantitively demonstrated from my blood tests, anastrozole has always killed my joints, dried my skin, thinned my hair, a decreased my cognitive function. The only RX that I have found to work for AI purposes that I can handle is very low dose Proviron. The issue being that Proviron is not legally prescribed in the U.S., so I obviously acquire from other sources. However, Proviron does have tremendous benefits, and in my experience, I only have to use a single dose of Proviron 1x per week to feel long-lasting AI benefits (despite the fact that the half-life is approximately 12 hours).

3. DIM and calcium d glucarate has helped some deal with estrogen issues. A supplement called Estrocort by Tiger Fitness contains both of these and is an all-around good supplement.

4. In regard to the mg to mg ratio of Test and nandrolone, general rule of thumb is 2:1. I am prescribed nandrolone through the Baylor College of Medicine. They generally prescribe 50-100 mg per week for joint issues. The problem with nandrolone is that it can cause ED issues in some men, despite no quantitative changes in prolactin levels. Likely this is a result from reduced overall androgenicity in the central nervous system, though I don't have data to back up that assertion.

5. Stanozolol is terrible for joints. I have used it for bodybuilding purposes in the past. I would not recommend for any form of therapeutic use unless prescribed for angioedema by a doctor.

6. I have taken Clomid in the past for fertility purposes while on TRT and can definitely attest to the fact that it increased my estrogen and estrogen-like symptoms. Clomid is noted to make many men feel terrible (depressed, low libido, low drive, etc.).

7. I find that I really don't tolerate therapeutic dosages of Testosterone alone, similar to use. Estrogen issues, head fogs, anxiety, mood fluctuations, etc. Long-acting esters (cypionate and enanthate) have always increased these symptoms in me, while propionate taken EOD is the only testosterone that I really don't have any estrogen issues with. Have you tried propionate EOD or ED? Also, nandrolone for a number of reasons has allowed me to tolerate TRT much better, especially the estrogenic side effects.

 

[nathan toney]

Thank you both Guided and DS3. Very good suggestions and I will look in to all of your ideas. I have thought about carnivore and am heading that way possibly. Keto is dipping my toe per se. I.m getting through the Holidays before starting a diet. As far as other aas I will research that some more. I have some DMSO so I will try it. Clomid only brought my total T to 476 when I went up to 25mg qd. Lower dose = lower total T. I will stay away from Winnie. I will research Proviron. I never had any luck with DIM and CDG but I will look at that brand you mentioned. If my SHBG lowers a bit that may not be terrible since I'm hovering around 50 (units?). I actually feel just fine on clomid but it doesn't seem to help much. It is nice to have my boys back. I think when I do decide to incorporate Deca I will start at 50 mg deca with 50mg T cyp / week. I could do a 2:1 and do, say, 60mg T cyp and 30 deca but 60 is where I start having E2 symptoms and I'm not sure 30 deca is enough. Stane and adex both make me feel horrible. Will never touch them again. My weirdest high E2 symptom is a feeling of a lump in my throat that I can't swallow and can progress occasional glotal collapse while awake. When i was on 400mg T cyp q 3 weeks it was so bad i couldn't sleep from sleep apnea from the lump closing my airway. I will look into whether I can get Test Prop. I sure hope the "competitive inhibition" happens in my case with deca and T cyp. Again I appreciate your help. I will keep you informed. I may have other comments or questions so this thread may continue.

 

[Gman86]

Check out this interview dr Lichten did. He talks about low dose nandrolone being pretty effective. If I remember correctly, he uses around 40mg/ week for men, and has seen benefits in women with doses as low as 20mg/ week. There’s also another doctor from Greece that is taking 20mg of nandrolone per week for its joint benefits. So I don’t think it would be a bad idea to try using 60mg of test, and 30mg of deca per week to start.

 

[nathan toney]

I watched the Dr. Lichton video 3 days ago. Very informative. That is what made me think about Stanazolol. I'm beginning to finally understand the reason enhanced athletes use anabolic steroids after reading some other excel male blogs on nandrolone. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so this may be obvious to everyone. My interpretation is: It is the androgenicity side of the anabolic:androgenic ratio that causes me and other people to have estrogen related side effects. Testosterone is (correct me if I'm wrong) a 1:1 ratio. Other AAS have lower androgenicity as compared to anabolicity (is that a word?). So I may have a better response to 50mg nandrolone with 50mg T cyp than a straight 100mg of t cyp. And from my understanding nandrolone is one of the safer AAS options for low dose therapy - I'm not saying its "safe" just that it may be a better option. Thanks to you all. I would like to continue the conversation.

 

[Gman86]

I watched the Dr. Lichton video 3 days ago. Very informative. That is what made me think about Stanazolol. I'm beginning to finally understand the reason enhanced athletes use anabolic steroids after reading some other excel male blogs on nandrolone. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so this may be obvious to everyone. My interpretation is: It is the androgenicity side of the anabolic:androgenic ratio that causes me and other people to have estrogen related side effects. Testosterone is (correct me if I'm wrong) a 1:1 ratio. Other AAS have lower androgenicity as compared to anabolicity (is that a word?). So I may have a better response to 50mg nandrolone with 50mg T cyp than a straight 100mg of t cyp. And from my understanding nandrolone is one of the safer AAS options for low dose therapy - I'm not saying its "safe" just that it may be a better option. Thanks to you all. I would like to continue the conversation.

Interesting. So you think your body may prefer more anabolic activity, and less androgenic activity? So you think using a 1:1 ratio would result in less androgenic activity than using a 2:1 ratio of testosterone:nandrolone? What makes u think u have issues when androgenic activity is too high?

 

[nathan toney]

Interesting. So you think your body may prefer more anabolic activity, and less androgenic activity? So you think using a 1:1 ratio would result in less androgenic activity than using a 2:1 ratio of testosterone:nandrolone? What makes u think u have issues when androgenic activity is too high?

Hi Gman. Maybe I don’t understand anabolic : androgenic ratios that well. I’m in the learning phase about this subject. Thank you for your response. So does the the androgenic side of a steroid not have anything to do with it’s estrogen in potential?

 

[Gman86]

Hi Gman. Maybe I don’t understand anabolic : androgenic ratios that well. I’m in the learning phase about this subject. Thank you for your response. So does the the androgenic side of a steroid not have anything to do with it’s estrogen in potential?

Hmm, good question. Anabolic has to do with muscle building/ tissue repair. Androgenic has to do with masculine things like deepening of the voice, facial hair growth, clitoris increasing in size (in women obviously), and things like that. Not sure if E2 side effects falls under either category, or if it would be in a separate category

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I think it's ability to aromatize you're interested in, and secondarily, ability to block estrogen receptors. Dianabol for example aromatizes heavily while masteron does not. Both have Anabolic and androgenic properties. It is the chemical structure you're interested in and specifically whether the compound can be aromatized.

 

[nathan toney]

Thanks guys. I am now understanding things a little better. I wanted DS3 to know I can get prescribed Proviron. What dose per week would you suggest (I prefer low and slow)? I plan to start at 60mg T cyp per week, 30 mg Nandrolone per week, and My Dr. does not have much knowledge about Proviron but is willing to prescribe due to my negative experiences with Anastrozole and Exemestane.

 

[nathan toney]

So to summarize my current plan: I am staying on Clomid 25mg qd until April 1 at the earliest per my Dr.'s instructions (as I am not having any negative side effects). My rehabilitation for the torn patellar tendon rupture repair surgery begins in February and I will not be allowed to begin muscle bulking the involved limb until summer 2020 at the earliest. I have read in NCBI studies that AAS can cause the wrong type of collagen fibers to grow in tendons (the bone type which are very strong but more brittle, vs the stretchy kind of collagen). So I want to make sure patellar tendon repair is fully healed and pain free first. I have a hunch based on just intuition that the remodelling of tendon caused by AAS may have more to do with higher doses in people taking AAS than the actual AAS but that is not based on science - just my thoughts. So based on this information I am tentatively planning on starting 60mg T cyp qw, 30mg Nandrolone qw, and (?)mg Proviron qw in around 6 months at the earliest. Unless there is a darned good reason to start earlier. Thank you for all your feedback.

 

[DS3]

So to summarize my current plan: I am staying on Clomid 25mg qd until April 1 at the earliest per my Dr.'s instructions (as I am not having any negative side effects). My rehabilitation for the torn patellar tendon rupture repair surgery begins in February and I will not be allowed to begin muscle bulking the involved limb until summer 2020 at the earliest. I have read in NCBI studies that AAS can cause the wrong type of collagen fibers to grow in tendons (the bone type which are very strong but more brittle, vs the stretchy kind of collagen). So I want to make sure patellar tendon repair is fully healed and pain free first. I have a hunch based on just intuition that the remodelling of tendon caused by AAS may have more to do with higher doses in people taking AAS than the actual AAS but that is not based on science - just my thoughts. So based on this information I am tentatively planning on starting 60mg T cyp qw, 30mg Nandrolone qw, and (?)mg Proviron qw in around 6 months at the earliest. Unless there is a darned good reason to start earlier. Thank you for all your feedback.

Proviron Feedback: I have personally seen unreal benefits in terms of suppressing estrogen expression from 12.5 mg Provirion EOD. Some guys with very high SHBG will tell you a minimum 25 mg per day, with 50 mg being much more preferable. However, those dosages have been demonstrated to lower HDL by as much as 30%, and with you taking low doses of T, these dosages should not be necessary. I would personally start with 12.5 mg EOD or E3D to begin with and see how you feel after 3-4 weeks, as well as what tests results show for (1) Free T (2) DHT (3) E2 (4) HDL (5) SHBG. Personally while I am using 75 mg T prop and 150 IU HCG EOD, I get by with just using 12.5 mg Proviron 1x per week.

Collagen Feedback: I personally feel that long-term testosterone therapy has reduced collagen production in my skeleton and integumentary systems. My joints feel dry and achy when I am just taking T, and my skin is dry and semi-pale. HCG helps to some degree, but I can say that nandrolone certainly makes my skin younger-looking, joints feel much better, and overall I feel that my body feels younger.

Patellar Tendon Feedback: Nandrolone has been successfully used by doctors and athletes to speed recovery and improve outcomes of rehabilitation due to its characteristics involving increased procollagen III levels. It might not be a bad idea to go ahead and incorporate nandrolone sooner than summer 2020.

 

[nathan toney]

Thank you DS3. I am still waiting to hear back from the pharmacy regarding T prop. Thank you for the dose schedule for proviron. I had immense trouble with E2 on HCG and have no desire to try again. Here is the study that concerns me about Procollagen Type III: Increased content of type III collagen at the rupture site of human Achilles tendon. - PubMed - NCBI
Thank you very, very much. It's helpful to have other people's perspective.

 

[nathan toney]

BTW my tendon rupture was from trauma not tendonitis. I had no knee pain prior to the accident.

 

[DS3]

Thank you DS3. I am still waiting to hear back from the pharmacy regarding T prop. Thank you for the dose schedule for proviron. I had immense trouble with E2 on HCG and have no desire to try again. Here is the study that concerns me about Procollagen Type III: Increased content of type III collagen at the rupture site of human Achilles tendon. - PubMed - NCBI
Thank you very, very much. It's helpful to have other people's perspective.

Beyond testosterone cypionate: evidence behind the use of nandrolone in male health and wellness - Pan - Translational Andrology and Urology

Here is a report from the Scott Department at the Baylor College of Medicine reporting on the potential benefits of nandrolone in joint healing. In the report it is stated, " Local administration of nandrolone may impair the healing of acute tendon injuries and the perceived benefits to retracted muscle may be outweighed by its effects on tendon healing (34)." They refer to a number of studies (animal models) regarding nandrolone therapy.

I would agree with you after having read the study you posted and this evidence that perhaps you do need to stay away from nandrolone for the time being.

HCG Feedback: As far as symptoms of high E2 from HCG, I can certainly empathize. I have just now after years of trying to find a protocol that works for me found one that does (150 IU EOD). The problem with HCG is that much of the estrogenic symptoms experienced by users are due to intratesticular estrogen, which AIs do not help combat. The interesting thing about Proviron is that it can help combat intratesticular estrogen because it gets directly into the testicle and acts as a DHT, effectively decreasing or blocking the effects of the intratesticular estrogen. Proviron is honestly the only reason I am able to take HCG for fertility (as well as optimizing cognitive function).

 

[nathan toney]

Thank you DS3. Regarding HCG I tried as low as 75iu e3d and it still was not working. At that point it was not cost effective because I had to throw vials away as well or they were past expiration. Thank you for that report. i will read it soon.

 

[nathan toney]

Do you think I should start another thread about the tendon issue? I think this may be a separate subject. I know I need to find something that helps my tendon to bone junctions (enthesis) feel better. I have not researched peptides and it is not something i can get prescribed. HGH is unaffordable. I still plan to try nandrolone. I need to do more research on Proviron to learn if it has any negative effects on tendons / connective tissue. Thanks to you all.

 

[nathan toney]

Is there a way to get Nelson Vergil's opinion on the tendon issue?

 

[DS3]

Do you think I should start another thread about the tendon issue? I think this may be a separate subject. I know I need to find something that helps my tendon to bone junctions (enthesis) feel better. I have not researched peptides and it is not something i can get prescribed. HGH is unaffordable. I still plan to try nandrolone. I need to do more research on Proviron to learn if it has any negative effects on tendons / connective tissue. Thanks to you all.

From my experience with Proviron, if I use it too frequently it does have a drying out effect on my joints and tendons, similar to AIs but not to the same degree. I have a prescription to Ibutamoren through my doctor to increase my IGF-1 levels. Increased IGF-1 will certainly assist in healing. I have not, however, experienced tremendous joint relief from it (have been using for 2+ years). I have also used HGH and can report the same for it.