Test Prop @ 15mg ED/SQ vs Test Cyp @ 20mg ED/SQ... Results.....

[bixt]

Shinohara and Fujioka also used a whopping 1 mL of sesame oil to deliver the 25 mg of propionate. This also could slow absorption.

Wow! Why on earth....

 

[Willyt]

My 10hr post injection results aren't too bad, assuming it didn't peak too much higher in the prior 10 hours (10-12 hours seems to be the documented peak times from my research).... I think Prop @ 8-10mg would be the ideal dose, but I'm also wondering to achieve more steady levels without huge peaks would be going back to Cyp @ 10-12mg/ed/sq or even Cyp 80/Prop 20 blend @ ed/sq @ 10mg/ed/sq would be better to hold the levels more stable (less drastic peaks?)..

Subjectively, I have always felt Prop peak much sooner around 4-5 hours post injection. Looks like 8-10mg would put you in range. You are injecting Subq, correct?

Regarding the blend, you might be good candidate for @Cataceous 4:3 Enan-Prop blend. See long discussion here. Or just try Empower's 80/20 blend at 10mg daily, but that is weak on the Prop.

 

[BillyJ03z]

Subjectively, I have always felt Prop peak much sooner around 4-5 hours post injection. Looks like 8-10mg would put you in range. You are injecting Subq, correct?

Regarding the blend, you might be good candidate for @Cataceous 4:3 Enan-Prop blend. See long discussion here. Or just try Empower's 80/20 blend at 10mg daily, but that is weak on the Prop.

Just read the entire thread on Test blending... Obviously I'm seeing too much of a spike and drop with Prop.... Never had any issues with Cyp, but I'm not really seeing any benefit between Prop and Cyp for me as far as mood/well being goes.... However, since starting Prop my hair has thinned more rapidly and maybe that cuz I'm peaking too hight with a higher DHT spike... right now I am awaiting my DHT results to see where they are at during the Prop spike....

 

[GreenMachineX]

Typically a serum testosterone trough of over 500 ng/dL from daily propionate means the dose is high; peaks are expected to be two to three times higher. You can try to verify by measuring at 2-4 hours post-injection. Fifteen mg of propionate daily is equivalent to 126 mg T cypionate per week, providing about double the amount of testosterone the average healthy young man makes naturally. As a next step I would try dropping to 10 mg/day of the propionate. It's ok to have lowish numbers at the trough. Even healthy natural men can appear hypogonadal if you measure their trough values.

Measuring 2-4 hours post injection gives a peak test number??? Or is that only with regard to prop? I've been getting my labs tested on the day of my injection usually a few hours after I inject test cyp because I thought the peak was 12-24 hours post injection. I've gone completely hypo the past week but the last free T was right at top of range, but going by what your saying, that's not my actual trough...I actually had a true trough drawn earlier yesterday so I'll know where I really drop to, but I have all the symptoms again. No morning wood, no libido, completely shrunken "member", flat muscles like I'm in ketosis, severe insomnia, etc.

To add to this, since I've been doing 10mg ED (drawn to the higher end of the 10mg line the past few days that is), what dose should I bump up to now that I know I'm actually hypogonadal? 12-13mg?

 

[Cataceous]

Measuring 2-4 hours post injection gives a peak test number??? Or is that only with regard to prop? ...

I neglected to give the caveat that this is based on an indirect interpretation of my results with propionate. So it should not be taken as a sure thing. However, I haven't found any controlled study that directly contradicts it. In the case of longer esters such as cypionate or enanthate there are some studies indicating later peaks. The matter isn't completely settled because there may be a dependency on the dose size. The formal studies are generally using relatively large doses compared to what we use for daily or EOD injections. The idea is that absorption of an injected depot may initially be proportional to surface area, and the smaller the depot the greater the ratio of the surface area to the dose size. This means smaller doses can be absorbed faster than larger ones, with the peak serum levels potentially occurring earlier.

It's highly unlikely that you are hypogonadal with top-of-range free testosterone. If on TRT you have not experienced a prolonged period with more mid-range free testosterone then that is what you should try before chasing symptom relief with supraphysiological dosing.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I neglected to give the caveat that this is based on an indirect interpretation of my results with propionate. So it should not be taken as a sure thing. However, I haven't found any controlled study that directly contradicts it. In the case of longer esters such as cypionate or enanthate there are some studies indicating later peaks. The matter isn't completely settled because there may be a dependency on the dose size. The formal studies are generally using relatively large doses compared to what we use for daily or EOD injections. The idea is that absorption of an injected depot may initially be proportional to surface area, and the smaller the depot the greater the ratio of the surface area to the dose size. This means smaller doses can be absorbed faster than larger ones, with the peak serum levels potentially occurring earlier.

It's highly unlikely that you are hypogonadal with top-of-range free testosterone. If on TRT you have not experienced a prolonged period with more mid-range free testosterone then that is what you should try before chasing symptom relief with supraphysiological dosing.

I hear you, but it's too late for today as I did try about 13mg or just under. I mean, if I were to switch to EOD, I would've done quite a bit more so I don't this test could be dangerous, or changing to anything above ED is now dangerous. Correct?

 

[BillyJ03z]

Today I reduced my Test Prop dose to approx. 8mg ed/sq (hard to be exact with those small lines on the insulin syringe.. lol)... but I think I am going to go back to Test Cyp as that should give me better stabilization and less drastic Peaks/Troughs as I get with Prop.... I'm thinking Test Cyp at 10mg ed/sq.... or possibly Empower's CYP/PROP blend (160cyp/40prop) @ 8mg ed/sq... with the Cyp/Prop blend I'd still get the stabilization I need without the huge peak/trough, and I would also get the benefit of a small dose of prop bang from daily injection..

 

[GreenMachineX]

I neglected to give the caveat that this is based on an indirect interpretation of my results with propionate. So it should not be taken as a sure thing. However, I haven't found any controlled study that directly contradicts it. In the case of longer esters such as cypionate or enanthate there are some studies indicating later peaks. The matter isn't completely settled because there may be a dependency on the dose size. The formal studies are generally using relatively large doses compared to what we use for daily or EOD injections. The idea is that absorption of an injected depot may initially be proportional to surface area, and the smaller the depot the greater the ratio of the surface area to the dose size. This means smaller doses can be absorbed faster than larger ones, with the peak serum levels potentially occurring earlier.

It's highly unlikely that you are hypogonadal with top-of-range free testosterone. If on TRT you have not experienced a prolonged period with more mid-range free testosterone then that is what you should try before chasing symptom relief with supraphysiological dosing.

Your right. Just got those Labs back and the trough was 600's, so it looks like there was only a marginal difference between true trough and getting Labs drawn 2 hours after shot. So, now I'll just deal with having test too high for 24 hours. Good thing I have lemon balm as it's pretty strong if it overwhelms me. Otherwise, my vitamin D is quite on the high side (76pg/mL), but doubt that's contributing to all these symptoms. And my TSH is 1.49, meaning that free t3 at top range isn't hitting the tissues that well, correct?

Anyway, I'll start a new thread with the lab work. I'm now thinking my bizarre symptoms are actually a result of methylated B vitamins putting me into overdrive. 50mg niacin really toned it down today so that was nice.

 

[BillyJ03z]

If you are on daily injections and those are your numbers, I would not lower the dosage. You are not likely to experience symptom relief at lower dosages.

I am assuming you have tried other injection frequencies besides ED dosing? How did you feel in comparison?

Do you use HCG?

welp, you are correct.... I have lowered my dose for the past 6-7 weeks to 8mg Prop which is 6.4mg pure test and I feel even worse... My libido is worse, sleep has not improved and I feel even more off... as of today, I switched to Cyp/Prop 160/40 blend and I am now injecting 20mg ed/sq = 13.76 mg of pure test..... I am going to start taking a 1/4 of Adex 3x week to keep E2 in check... *****on a side note I started also taking Empower's topical LF hair restore which contained .1mg of Finasteride but i cut with 90ml of melted foam minox which now gives me .0125mg of Fin. So hopefully I don't get sides from DHT crashing and more elevated E2...