T Propionate protocol
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Vince
Super Moderator
Propionate PIP Poll
My TRT provider, who is also the largest convicted steroid dealer in America, is of the opinion that PIP reported with testosterone propionate is most likely caused by the testosterone crashing out of solution in the body and provoking an inflammatory response. He does not believe that it is...
www.excelmale.com
I did Prop IM at 15mg/day. My mood was the best ever on TRT, I lost water weight quickly and my libido and erection were ridiculous, but unfortunately I was too wired on it, I think it just peaked way too fast for me.
At some point I'm still thinking of trying subQ Prop, maybe the slower absorbtion rate will smooth out the gap between peak and trough levels.
@Cataceous, @readalot, does that reasoning make sense in your opinion? Could subQ Prop shorten the gap between peaks and troughs relative to IM Prop?
At some point I'm still thinking of trying subQ Prop, maybe the slower absorbtion rate will smooth out the gap between peak and trough levels.
@Cataceous, @readalot, does that reasoning make sense in your opinion? Could subQ Prop shorten the gap between peaks and troughs relative to IM Prop?
T
tareload
Guest
Example for Test Cyp...
Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone
100 mg/week of TC IM vs SQ IM modeled as 4.5 day elimination half life and 8 hr absorption half life SQ modeled as 8 day elimination half life and 16 hr absorption half life E7D injections and typical clearance volume… IM is orange and SQ is blue. If you were only looking at trough TT...
forums.t-nation.com
Qualitatively would / could be similar for Test Prop. Absolute numbers would change give shorter apparent absorption/elimination rate constants.
Seems quite plausible in my mind.
As @readalot says, in theory it could help some. However, on daily SC propionate I see a 60-70% drop from peak to trough, which is still excessive considering that the highest natural variation is perhaps more like 40%. You can attain better control over the variation if you blend propionate with a longer ester, such as cypionate or enanthate. There's a thread here with some details on creating such a blend.
Example for Test Cyp...
Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone
100 mg/week of TC IM vs SQ IM modeled as 4.5 day elimination half life and 8 hr absorption half life SQ modeled as 8 day elimination half life and 16 hr absorption half life E7D injections and typical clearance volume… IM is orange and SQ is blue. If you were only looking at trough TT...
View attachment 25903
Qualitatively would / could be similar for Test Prop. Absolute numbers would change give shorter apparent absorption/elimination rate constants.
Seems quite plausible in my mind.
This is very informative, thank you. It definitely seems plausible it could make a significant difference, I'm going to give it a shot.
Seriously? I know you're very rigorous in gathering data so I don't doubt you but that's a lot more than I expected, especially from subQ shots. It would definitely explain why I felt so wired doing 15mg/day IM.
I saw some of your posts on the blends. It makes a lot of sense, I think I'm still hoping for something a little more straigh-forward, but I don't have many straight-forward protocols left to try, so I might give the blends a shot in the relatively near future.
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
I've said it elsewhere but I think my N=1 bears repeating here, that I could not tolerate even 5 mg a day of prop IM because of the overstimulated feeling of the peak and evening crash. I am feeling great after several days of 10 mg SC propionate with no perception of a peak / crash at all. I do think the type of injection has what researchers would call a clinically significant effect on the pharmacokinetics of this ester.
This is great, maybe some hope haha.
Are you also someone who struggled on Cyp/Enanthate?
Despite great labs I never felt good on Test Cyp, whether on 2x/week or daily injections even at reasonable dosages (tried everything from 100 to 160mg/week). But I felt the worst mentally on daily injections despite the lowest incidence of negative side effects (bloating, higher BP, headaches...). I just felt completely flat, no enthusiasm for anything, zero motivation or drive.
I'm hoping Prop subQ could let me experience the benefits I was feeling from 15mg/day IM without feeling so wired all the time.
Interestingly though, my T:E ratio was a lot worse on daily Prop than on daily Cyp. On Cyp 18mg/day I was around 25ng/dL Free T and 50pg/mL sensitive E2, but on 15mg/day Prop I was at 20ng/dL FT and 60pg/mL sensitive E2. And that was after 12 hours only, so not even trough levels for the Prop.
EDIT: Your current protocol is exactly what I've just started tonight. 10mg/day at night SubQ. It'll be interesting to compare notes and blood test results, although I probably still have 3 or more weeks left before the Cyp is completely out of my system
Perhaps an interesting data point here, although only n of 1 as well.
Before I got on TRT my DHEA-S was 200 (forget the units). After I got on TRT, it dropped very quickly (very next blood test 8 weeks later) to 80 and stayed there consistently over 5-6 blood tests over the last 2 years.
I briefly tried the compounded scrotal cream. I bailed mostly because even on just 100mg/day (1 click AM + 1 click PM), my DHT levels at trough came back at 360ng/dL, around 6 times the range. I didn't feel comfortable running that long term.
As a parenthesis one thing I'd still like to try is applying the cream to different parts of my body instead of the scrotum.
Anyway, for a brief period of time after I dropped my dose from 200mg/day to 100mg/day, I felt absolutely amazing. Incredibly driven to do things, but purely out of pleasure and enjoyment for the feeling of getting better. I've never felt that in my life. Unfortunately it turned out not to be sustainable or at least maybe I just didn't give it enough time, but my theory is that it had more to do with the sudden drop in levels and temporary contextual neurotransmitter activity, than a specific maintainable ratio of hormones. My sleep was also the best it's ever been in my entire life and despite having incredible libido and erections, I had no cravings. Essentially it felt as if my baseline Dopamine levels were a lot higher than usual.
However, what was interesting on the 100mg/day of the cream, is that my DHEA-S levels came back up to 190, or 95% of my baseline pre-TRT levels, after 2 years stuck at 80.
My TSH also came down to ~1 from my typical 2.5-3.
My theory is that HPTA suppression is not a binary thing, and that short esters probably lead to a lot less suppression than longer ones, and therefore less suppression of neurosteroids such as Preg, DHEA and Progesterone.
I could be wrong, but I will definitely be testing DHEA-S and Progesterone on this Prop protocol. I also want to test LH and FSH, as ridiculous as it sounds.
There is a study out there where they gave participants 50mg, 100mg or 300mg of Test Enenthate, and the ones who were only taking 50mg had their LH and FSH shut down by only 50%.
There you go: Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production - PubMed
"At 50 mg of T enanthate per week, the LH level was 65% and the FSH level was 62% of control values; at 100 mg/week, the levels were at 32% and 34% of control values, respectively. T enanthate also contributed to a significant dose-dependent suppression of both sperm counts and concentrations. At 50 mg/week, the sperm count was 36% of control values; at 100 mg/week, it was 0.8% of control values. T enanthate at a dose of 300 mg/week was no more effective than 100 mg/week"
Enanthate is not a short ester, but this is just evidence that shutdown is not a binary thing
...
Here's the data:
Peak-to-trough drops are 40, 74, 65, and 58% respectively. I've used a figure of 2/3 (67%) to make some reasonably accurate predictions. This isn't that much higher than would be predicted from Nieschlag's 19 hour half-life measurement, which applies to 50 mg IM injections. The larger dose may result in a longer apparent half-life. In any case, absorption rates vary among individuals, so it's best to do your own testing.
Why not in the morning?
tropicaldaze1950
Well-Known Member
How about splitting your dose, IM, 2X daily/ morning & late afternoon, early evening, in the manner of twice daily T cream on the scrotum? No experience, but I have 1.5 vials of Empower Test Prop. Been thinking of doing that to replace weekly Test E.
Thanks for the data points, it's always good to have actual numbers. I'm planning to test both trough and peak levels, I'll post the results in here.
Something about peaking early morning while i'm still sleeping. I think IM peak is around 4-5-6 hours post injection, so subQ peak might be 7-8-9?
Obviously speculating a bit here, but nightly Prop subQ might come pretty close to an endogenous circadian rhythm. Of course it depends on the gap between peak and trough levels. If I end up with a 60% variation, that's significantly beyond what even a young man's levels will vary throughout the day. From the study I read, I think young men's levels varied around 30% on average.
I'm not married to it though, routine wise mornings are easier and so is testing. If I find a protocol I like, I'll try mornings and see what kind of difference there is if any. Honestly I wouldn't expect much of one but you never know.
I think 2x/day would defeat some of the purpose of trying to retain some variation in levels on a daily basis. Also, as much as I'm ready to go through the hassle of daily injections if it makes a significant difference in my health and quality of life, injecting twice a day is beyond what I'm ready to do at this point. If it made a huge difference I would put myself through it, but I think I have many other more sustainable protocols to try before I get there
I have indirect evidence that my peaks are occurring more like 2-4 hours post-injection. Which is to say that I haven't taken multiple samples in one day, but the measurements taken in this window usually agree with predicted peak values. At least one other guy has provided similar results.
This isn't surprising, most people seem to do much better on IM than SubQ in general.
My libido and erection quality on 15mg/day IM Prop were the best of any protocol I've tried, the cream came close.
That's much sooner post-injection than I would've guessed. I'll try testing 3 and 6 hours post-injection as well as 24 hours. The good thing about Prop is that steady state should be attained very quickly
Do you know what the half life of 10mg test prop and 5mg test prop would be?...
Here's the data:
Peak-to-trough drops are 40, 74, 65, and 58% respectively. I've used a figure of 2/3 (67%) to make some reasonably accurate predictions. This isn't that much higher than would be predicted from Nieschlag's 19 hour half-life measurement, which applies to 50 mg IM injections. The larger dose may result in a longer apparent half-life. In any case, absorption rates vary among individuals, so it's best to do your own testing.
I'm considering trying either 10mg once a day or 5mg twice a day IM.
No, there are too many factors involved, including injection location, activity level, excipients, etc. As a rough guess figure the half-life is likely to be around or somewhat below the figure of 0.8 days measured by Nieschlag for 50 mg IM. SC injections might tend to lengthen the apparent half-life, while smaller injections could shorten it. The latter implies that a 5 mg dose may result in a slightly shorter half-life than a 10 mg dose.
OK guys, this thread has got me excited, so I will be your guinea pig. I bought a vial of UGL 100mg/ml prop last night (sorry, that's the only prop I can get in my country).
Am currently doing perfectly fine on IM cyp in every way (and with pretty much any protocol) but my sleep is meh, wake up with a "hangover". This happens with doses >100mg and gets worse as dose increases, all the way to 500mg. Too much stimulation of the CNS during sleep is the cause. I do however want the larger doses especially for muscular, recovery and hypersexual purposes (all "nice to have" but not strictly "need to have" things).
My main reason then for doing this prop experiment is to get a high peak in the day (and I don't care if it is (actually preferably want) 2-3x supra), and hopefully drop quite low at night allowing me to sleep deeper. So in theory the prop solo could allow me the best of both worlds, at least to some extent.
I will be starting with 20mg daily subq AM, which is 140mg\week (0.2ml \ day). Have done shallow IM quads\delts with this same brand before and the PIP is significant even when blended 50% with cyp, hence I am going subq
Please allow me a few more days to wash out existing cyp in my system before starting (have already not injected 3 days). I will report back.
I will abandon this experiment should I develop any welts, painful lumps, systemic allergic reactions to prop subq, crippling pain etc.
Am currently doing perfectly fine on IM cyp in every way (and with pretty much any protocol) but my sleep is meh, wake up with a "hangover". This happens with doses >100mg and gets worse as dose increases, all the way to 500mg. Too much stimulation of the CNS during sleep is the cause. I do however want the larger doses especially for muscular, recovery and hypersexual purposes (all "nice to have" but not strictly "need to have" things).
My main reason then for doing this prop experiment is to get a high peak in the day (and I don't care if it is (actually preferably want) 2-3x supra), and hopefully drop quite low at night allowing me to sleep deeper. So in theory the prop solo could allow me the best of both worlds, at least to some extent.
I will be starting with 20mg daily subq AM, which is 140mg\week (0.2ml \ day). Have done shallow IM quads\delts with this same brand before and the PIP is significant even when blended 50% with cyp, hence I am going subq
Please allow me a few more days to wash out existing cyp in my system before starting (have already not injected 3 days). I will report back.
I will abandon this experiment should I develop any welts, painful lumps, systemic allergic reactions to prop subq, crippling pain etc.
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