Propionate PIP Poll

[FunkOdyssey]

My TRT provider, who is also the largest convicted steroid dealer in America, is of the opinion that PIP reported with testosterone propionate is most likely caused by the testosterone crashing out of solution in the body and provoking an inflammatory response. He does not believe that it is caused by particular additives, but instead by pushing the concentration beyond the capacity of test prop to dissolve well.

I'm personally not sure whether the problems relate to concentration versus additives. I do suspect that this problem is mostly limited to UGL formulations though. I set up this poll to confirm or refute that suspicion. I want to know what your experiences have been with legally obtained, 100mg/ml testosterone propionate from a compounding pharmacy.

It's possible that this whole PIP thing is just a myth that discourages people from trying an effective TRT option that offers unique benefits for many people.

 

[Fortunate]

I noticed pain, almost exclusively related to this and have not really had it with other forms of injections. Casted my vote.

 

[tareload]

My TRT provider, who is also the largest convicted steroid dealer in America, is of the opinion that PIP reported with testosterone propionate is most likely caused by the testosterone crashing out of solution in the body and provoking an inflammatory response.

In the top 3 of best opening lines for a post in the history of TRT forums. It's like the ketchup of TRT forum posts, hits every angle.

Is he the largest by body mass or largest by seized volume?

 

[Jerajera]

Used Empower's Prop for a while, completely painless for me

 

[FunkOdyssey]

In the top 3 of best opening lines for a post in the history of TRT forums. It's like the ketchup of TRT forum posts, hits every angle.

LOL, thanks. I felt like his background lent some credibility.

Is he the largest by body mass or largest by seized volume?

He's a big guy but his home-grown brand was supposedly the largest UGL in American history. Here's an article about it: Shark Tank Entrepreneur Turned Steroid Dealer Received Harsher Punishment Because He Was Too Stingy with His Employees - Roidvisor - Your reliable guide in Steroids

He seems like a nice guy to me and has been very helpful as I began my TRT journey. Danny Bossa interviewed him recently on his new podcast:

Home

We Can Treat Patients in NY, VT, FL, and Now AZ!! If You Do Not Live in One of the Preceding States, We Are Offering Consulting Services.We currently only have licenses to treat patients in the above listed states. We are working on obtaining state licenses for many more states in the near future,

hormonesforme.com

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I noticed pain, almost exclusively related to this and have not really had it with other forms of injections. Casted my vote.

Do you mind sharing the pharmacy that produced it? I'm not sure it's relevant, but it might be.

I have some from Precision Pharmacy in NYC that I injected today without pain but it was just a tiny dose of 4 mg. I'm going to hold off on voting until I've injected doses of 10 mg or greater.

 

[tareload]

LOL, thanks. I felt like his background lent some credibility.


He's a big guy but his home-grown brand was supposedly the largest UGL in American history. Here's an article about it: Shark Tank Entrepreneur Turned Steroid Dealer Received Harsher Punishment Because He Was Too Stingy with His Employees - Roidvisor - Your reliable guide in Steroids

He seems like a nice guy to me and has been very helpful as I began my TRT journey. Danny Bossa interviewed him recently on his new podcast:

Home

We Can Treat Patients in NY, VT, FL, and Now AZ!! If You Do Not Live in One of the Preceding States, We Are Offering Consulting Services.We currently only have licenses to treat patients in the above listed states. We are working on obtaining state licenses for many more states in the near future,

hormonesforme.com

Thank you for the info.

Injected 10 mg of TP in GSO this AM and a few times now with no pain. But [C] is only 40 mg/ml of TP and 160 mg/ml of TC. Am I eligible to vote?
I will post up some related literature on solubility of TP in various solvents and some other interesting info if you would like.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Injected 10 mg of TP in GSO this AM and a few times now with no pain. But [C] is only 40 mg/ml of TP and 160 mg/ml of TC. Am I eligible to vote?

I don't think so, because one of the possibilities is that the concentration is an important factor, so I'm trying to isolate responses to 100 mg/ml experiences. I've seen reports on reddit that 50 mg/ml testosterone propionate caused less PIP than 100 mg/ml.

I will post up some related literature on solubility of TP in various solvents and some other interesting info if you would like.

Yes please. Would I like for you to post interesting info? When would the answer ever be no?

 

[tareload]

I don't think so, because one of the possibilities is that the concentration is an important factor, so I'm trying to isolate responses to 100 mg/ml experiences. I've seen reports on reddit that 50 mg/ml testosterone propionate caused less PIP than 100 mg/ml.


Yes please. Would I like for you to post interesting info? When would the answer ever be no?

Gotcha. I agree. You may want to modify potential votes 2 and 3 to make sure reader doesn't reply unless 100 mg/ml experience.

Ok will do.

 

[Fortunate]

Do you mind sharing the pharmacy that produced it? I'm not sure it's relevant, but it might be.

I have some from Precision Pharmacy in NYC that I injected today without pain but it was just a tiny dose of 4 mg. I'm going to hold off on voting until I've injected doses of 10 mg or greater.

Empower. That said, I noticed a small sludge at the top of the vial and concluded that it probably crystallized. I tried to heat it up, but the sludge remained. I got a new vial and injected maybe once or twice and decided I didn’t want to continue. Can’t remember if the new vial hurt as well.

 

[Fortunate]

Thank you for the info.

Injected 10 mg of TP in GSO this AM and a few times now with no pain. But [C] is only 40 mg/ml of TP and 160 mg/ml of TC. Am I eligible to vote?
I will post up some related literature on solubility of TP in various solvents and some other interesting info if you would like.

@readalot, I am probably light years behind, but wasn’t there a time that you were not on TRT? For some reason, I thought you were on the sideline?

 

[tareload]

@readalot, I am probably light years behind, but wasn’t there a time that you were not on TRT? For some reason, I thought you were on the sideline?

Yes, back on the horse!

Went off for a few months but back for the last 6 weeks.

 

[Cataceous]

I have used semi-UGL Pharmacom propionate and did experience some PIP with it. In contrast I've had little trouble with Empower's propionate. Both products are 100 mg/mL in GSO.

 

[tareload]

Effect of Oil on the Level of Solubilization of Testosterone Propionate into Nonionic Oil-in-Water Microemulsions

□ The level of solubilization of the drug testosterone propionate into 2% w/w oil-in-water (o/w) microemulsions, stabilized by the nonionic surfactant…

www.sciencedirect.com

Note the vastly improved solubility in the esters...

For comparison:

Use of nonaqueous solvents to prepare injection solutions - Pharmaceutical Chemistry Journal

link.springer.com

 

[tareload]

Some nice background reading on the subcutaneous space:

Optimizing the Bioavailability of Subcutaneously Administered Biotherapeutics Through Mechanochemical Drivers - Pharmaceutical Research

The subcutaneous route offers myriad benefits for the administration of biotherapeutics in both acute and chronic diseases, including convenience, cost effectiveness and the potential for automation through closed-loop systems. Recent advances in parenteral administration devices and the use of...

link.springer.com

Sets the stage for why and how testosterone propionate (TP) would/may precipitate after injection (IM vs SQ) and which injection method may be better for TP administration.

 

[tareload]

Factors influencing the effectiveness of administered hormones | Proceedings of the Royal Society of London. Series B - Biological Sciences

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/epdf/10.1098/rspb.1937.0086

Have read this one a few times and still reading again.

 

[BigTex]

I did test prop one time in my life in the late 80's. I can't rememeber the brand but it was definitely pharma and I believe 100mg/ml. I injected it in the quad. In a few hours I thougth I was going to be cripple the pain was so bad. Never again.

 

[tareload]

In-vitro prediction of bioavailability following extravascular injection of poorly soluble drugs: an insight into clinical failure and the role of delivery systems - PubMed

The in-vitro model can be used as a cost-effective screening tool in injectable formulation development for safe and effective delivery of poorly soluble drugs. PDP can be circumvented with a well-designed formulation.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/106002807701100703

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Very interesting @readalot, thank you. Instead of calling it "testosterone crashing out of solution in the body", we can now use the medical terminology of post-injection drug precipitation (PDP). The articles you've posted offer a couple possible explanations for how this PDP could occur, even if the concentration of testosterone propionate in the vial is not excessive to begin with:

1. The dilution curve of the formulation may intersect the solubility line as the solution is diluted with bodily fluids and cause precipitation.
2. Solvents may be absorbed faster than the drug, causing the remaining solution to become supersaturated.
3. There might be a third possibility involving acid-base reactions that is beyond my understanding.

I think this neatly ties together both theories about the cause of test propionate PIP: that the concentration is too high or that it is caused by improper selection and amounts of non-oil additives. Either of those individually, or both together, could cause PDP to occur. The expertise of the compounding pharmacy could certainly make a difference -- UGL products may be more prone to PDP due to poor judgment of the formulator.

 

[tareload]

Very interesting @readalot, thank you. Instead of calling it "testosterone crashing out of solution in the body", we can now use the medical terminology of post-injection drug precipitation (PDP). The articles you've posted offer a couple possible explanations for how this PDP could occur, even if the concentration of testosterone propionate in the vial is not excessive to begin with:

1. The dilution curve of the formulation may intersect the solubility line as the solution is diluted with bodily fluids and cause precipitation.
2. Solvents may be absorbed faster than the drug, causing the remaining solution to become supersaturated.
3. There might be a third possibility involving acid-base reactions that is beyond my understanding.

I think this neatly ties together both theories about the cause of test propionate PIP: that the concentration is too high or that it is caused by improper selection and amounts of non-oil additives. Either of those individually, or both together, could cause PDP to occur. The expertise of the compounding pharmacy could certainly make a difference -- UGL products may be more prone to PDP due to poor judgment of the formulator.

Excellent summary! In my mind (I have no experience with 100 mg/ml TP) that leaves the question would PDP be more of a problem injected strictly IM or SQ. Injection protocol may then depend on the person, age, bodyfat,... Would dilution curve be more favorable to avoid PDP with SQ approach? Effective water activity with IM injection vs SQ injection.

Great thread @FunkOdyssey. Perhaps others with experience will weigh in?