Testosterone Propionate Protocol Tweaks

[TRTinNY]

Hi guys...

Looking for some help...

I was on a protocol Dr. Saya put me on recently. I tested after 8 weeks and just got the results.

I am definitely too high with some side effects (Sporatic ED, Bloating, Delayed Ejaculation) so looking for an idea of what to tweak since I can't get an appointment right away.

My current protocol is 25mg testosterone propionate daily and 1 click testosterone cream to the scrotum daily. This was increased from 12mg testosterone propionate daily and 2 clicks cream. I take roughly 6mg aromasin every 3 days.

Here are my current results.

Test Total: 2267 ng/dL
Test Free: 539.5 pg/ml
Estradiol Ultrasensitive: 62 pg/mL
Albumin: 4.8 g/dL
SHBG: 24 nmol/L
DHEA: 170 mcg/dL
DHT: 198 ng/dL
Progesterone: 2.0 ng/mL
Prolactin: 3.1 ng/mL
Pregnenolone: 53 ng/dL
Vitamin D: 60 ng/mL
Vitamin B12: 363 pg/mL

When at 12mg...my levels were way too low. Test was 450 ng/ML, Free test was 103.4 pg/ML Now they are through the roof.

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Pnw0031]

Wow those are some ridiculously high levels! Any chance you can reduce to 20mg daily? Propionate is kind of tricky where every 1mg a day increase causes exponential testosterone increase. Hopefully this gets you a more normal level!

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I would also reduce to 20 mg and see how that treats you. I'm curious though about how you and Dr. Saya arrived at this unconventional protocol with the propionate and cream combination. Would you mind elaborating on your background with TRT, how/why you ended up on this protocol, and how it compares in terms of effects to what you tried previously?

Doing my best @Gman86 impression here. lol

 

[TRTinNY]

I would also reduce to 20 mg and see how that treats you. I'm curious though about how you and Dr. Saya arrived at this unconventional protocol with the propionate and cream combination. Would you mind elaborating on your background with TRT, how/why you ended up on this protocol, and how it compares in terms of effects to what you tried previously?

Doing my best @Gman86 impression here. lol

I actually just did a symptoms call and they asked me to reduce to 20 mg. We use cream because they wanted my DHT hire so I'm doing one click to the scrotum. I've had crazy ED issues over the years and I'm super sensitive to changes.

 

[TRTinNY]

Do you think I'll see the difference dropping to 20mg before 4 weeks?

 

[t_spacemonkey]

you see the difference in 3-4 days max. i am on prop too, at 30mg. one issue is that it peaks and levels rather quick. i did some labcorp experiment once, injection 6am, 8am-free T 30, 10am - free T 75. so you might be at the total peak which doesnt last too long. I would honestly start by dropping the AI, yes despite higher e2. this alone can cause libido issues. high e2 is not an issue for most, when T is high.
what is your body fat % and what other drugs do you take next question. diet as well.

 

[madman]

Hi guys...

Looking for some help...

I was on a protocol Dr. Saya put me on recently. I tested after 8 weeks and just got the results.

I am definitely too high with some side effects (Sporatic ED, Bloating, Delayed Ejaculation) so looking for an idea of what to tweak since I can't get an appointment right away.

My current protocol is 25mg testosterone propionate daily and 1 click testosterone cream to the scrotum daily. This was increased from 12mg testosterone propionate daily and 2 clicks cream. I take roughly 6mg aromasin every 3 days.

Here are my current results.

Test Total: 2267 ng/dL
Test Free: 539.5 pg/ml
Estradiol Ultrasensitive: 62 pg/mL
Albumin: 4.8 g/dL
SHBG: 24 nmol/L
DHEA: 170 mcg/dL
DHT: 198 ng/dL
Progesterone: 2.0 ng/mL
Prolactin: 3.1 ng/mL
Pregnenolone: 53 ng/dL
Vitamin D: 60 ng/mL
Vitamin B12: 363 pg/mL

When at 12mg...my levels were way too low. Test was 450 ng/ML, Free test was 103.4 pg/ML Now they are through the roof.

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

How many hours post-injection were labs drawn?

Even then that is a ridiculous TT and more importantly FT level!

You have lowish SHBG to boot!

You left out critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit!

From what I remember from some of your previous threads over the years you were always struggling with elevated hematocrit due to running too high a trough FT.

Always best to post assays used/reference ranges when speaking on lab results.

Have a hunch your FT was tested using Quest's ED assay and if so then at least it was tested using what would be considered the most accurate assay.

Regardless if your hitting a TT 2200+ ng/dL it is a given that your FT would be through the roof!

If we use the linear law-of-mass action cFTV and plug in your stratospheric TT 2267 ng/dL, lowish SHBG 24 nmol/L and Albumin 4.8 g/dL then your FT 68.7 ng/dL is way too f**king high!

Just to put this in perspective most healthy young males would be hitting a cFTV 13-15 ng/dL and this is a short-lived peak to boot!

Trough would be 20-25% lower.

keep in mind as of now cFTV tends to slightly overestimate so if it was tested using a standardized ED assay it would be a little lower.

A FT in the low-mid 20s cFTV or standardized ED assay would be high!

Unfortunately most are caught up aiming for that super high FT 30 ng/dL and this is troughs we are talking about here.

Again big difference between one hitting a very high trough FT 30 ng/dL injecting once weekly vs EOD or daily!

Critical to always pay attention to injection frequency/trough FT level.

Yes many may very well feel better overall running higher-end/high trough FT levels but it is far from a given.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum running too high a FT can be just as bad as running too low a FT in many ways especially when it comes to liibido, erectile function and mood!

Everyone has a genetic set-point and unfortunately many end up blowing well beyond it due to being caught upon that more T is better mentality!

Just to be clear here I see no issue if one chooses to run a high-end/high trough FT within reason especially if blood markers are healthy, minus any sides and they feel great overall.

Yes symptom relief is what truly matters but we need to tread lightly when it comes to the cop out for some claiming this is where I feel best!

I could bang 300 mg T/week maybe have minimal sides, blood markers fairly good overall other then very high hematocrit yet state this is where I feel best.

When you seen how absurd my TT and more importantly trough FT levels were on such protocol they would be well past therapeutic!

Such dose would never be needed to achieve a healthy let alone high/very high trough FT level let alone experience relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.

300 mg T/week never has and never would be considered a therapeutic dose for TTh!

See where I am going with this.

Hard to believe that your TP dose was cranked up that high!

Minus the cream you were injecting 12 mg TP daily (94 mg/week) and your dose was jacked up to 25 mg daily (175 mg/week) which is a whopping 81 mg TP/week.

Most men on TTh are using TC or TE.

20-30 mg TC/TE is a big jump and such dose can easily drive up your TT/FT!

You blew past this and using TP to boot which has more active T/mg.

Again to put this in perspective.

We can nitpick here on the approx free equivalents but you get the point!

175 mg is a whopping amount of active T (minus the ester).

175 mg TP (145.25 mg active T)/week would be the equivalent of banging 207.5 mg TC (145.25 mg active T)/week.

This gets even more nuttier when you think about the daily production of a healthy young male which would be 5-7 mg T, 10 mg T daily top f**king end to boot which would be 70 mg T/week!

Your banging 145.25 mg T/week or better yet 20.75 mg T daily!




100 mg TC = 70 mg (active T)

100 mg TE = 72 mg (active T)

100 mg TP = 83 mg (active T)

You easily have room to drop the TP dose quite a bit!

 

[TRTinNY]

How many hours post-injection were labs drawn?

Even then that is a ridiculous TT and more importantly FT level!

You have lowish SHBG to boot!

You left out critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit!

From what I remember from some of your previous threads over the years you were always struggling with elevated hematocrit due to running too high a trough FT.

Always best to post assays used/reference ranges when speaking on lab results.

Have a hunch your FT was tested using Quest's ED assay and if so then at least it was tested using what would be considered the most accurate assay.

Regardless if your hitting a TT 2200+ ng/dL it is a given that your FT would be through the roof!

If we use the linear law-of-mass action cFTV and plug in your stratospheric TT 2267 ng/dL, lowish SHBG 24 nmol/L and Albumin 4.8 g/dL then your FT 68.7 ng/dL is way too f**king high!


View attachment 45613


Just to put this in perspective most healthy young males would be hitting a cFTV 13-15 ng/dL and this is a short-lived peak to boot!

Trough would be 20-25% lower.

keep in mind as of now cFTV tends to slightly overestimate so if it was tested using a standardized ED assay it would be a little lower.

A FT in the low 20s cFTV or standardized ED assay would be high!

Unfortunately most are caught up aiming for that super high FT 30 ng/dL and this is troughs we are talking about here.

Again big difference between one hitting a very high trough FT 30 ng/dL injecting once weekly vs EOD or daily!

Critical to always pay attention to injection frequency/trough FT level.

Yes many may very well feel better overall running higher-end/high trough FT levels but it is far from a given.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum running too high a FT can be just as bad as running too low a FT in many ways especially when it comes to liibido, erectile function and mood!

Everyone has a genetic set-point and unfortunately many end up blowing well beyond it due to being caught upon that more T is better mentality!

Just to be clear here I see no issue if one chooses to run a high-end/high trough FT within reason especially if blood markers are healthy, minus any sides and they feel great overall.

Yes symptom relief is what truly matters but we need to tread lightly when it comes to the cop out for some claiming this is where I feel best!

I could bang 300 mg T/week maybe have minimal sides, blood markers fairly good overall other then very high hematocrit yet state this is where I feel best.

When you seen how absurd my TT and more importantly trough FT levels were on such protocol they would be well past therapeutic!

Such dose would never be needed to achieve a healthy let alone high/very high trough FT level let alone experience relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.

300 mg T/week never has and never would be considered a therapeutic dose for TTh!

See where I am going with this.

Hard to believe that your TP dose was cranked up that high!

Minus the cream you were injecting 12 mg TP daily (94 mg/week) and your dose was jacked up to 25 mg daily (175 mg/week) which is a whopping 81 mg TP/week.

Most men on TTh are using TC or TE.

20-30 mg TC/TE is a big jump and such dose can easily drive up your TT/FT!

You blew past this and using TP to boot which has more active T/mg.

Again to put this in perspective.

We can nitpick here on the approx free equivalents but you get the point!

175 mg is a whopping amount of active T (minus the ester).

175 mg TP (145.25 mg active T)/week would be the equivalent of banging 207.5 mg TC (145.25 mg active T)/week.

This gets even more nuttier when you think about the daily production of a healthy young male which would be 5-7 mg T, 10mg T daily top f**king end to boot which would be 70 mg T/week!

Your banging 145.25 mg T/week or better yet 20.75 mg T daily!




100 mg TC = 70 mg (active T)

100 mg TE = 72 mg (active T)

100 mg TP = 83 mg (active T)

View attachment 45612


You easily have room to drop the TP dose quite a bit!

Thank you for this very thorough response. I tested through quest laboratories and you were right about the assay. My test was done about 3 and 1/2 hours after my injection.

 

[madman]

Thank you for this very thorough response. I tested through quest laboratories and you were right about the assay. My test was done about 3 and 1/2 hours after my injection.

You are injecting 25 mg TP daily peak would most likely be anywhere from 2-6 hrs.

Even then if you had tested at the true trough which would be 24 hrs post (just before your next injection) your trough TT/FT would still be very high!

Even if you ended up hitting a trough TT just over 1000 ng/dL your trough FT would still be very high as in 30 ng/dL!

 

[TRTinNY]

You are injecting 25 mg TP daily peak would most likely be anywhere from 2-6 hrs.

Even then if you had tested at the true trough which would be 24 hrs post (just before your next injection) your trough TT/FT would still be very high!

Do you agree dropping to 20 mg would make sense?

 

[madman]

Do you agree dropping to 20 mg would make sense?

You could try 18-20 mg and adjust from there as it does not take too long to hit steady-state on prop.

No point in making a drastic drop off the hop!

 

[Gman86]

I would also reduce to 20 mg and see how that treats you. I'm curious though about how you and Dr. Saya arrived at this unconventional protocol with the propionate and cream combination. Would you mind elaborating on your background with TRT, how/why you ended up on this protocol, and how it compares in terms of effects to what you tried previously?

Doing my best @Gman86 impression here. lol

Love this lol