Just to make sure my PSA is in every thread about TRT and sleep issues, if you haven't eliminated caffeine, that should be step one. The measurable benefits of caffeine disappear completely with chronic use, unlike testosterone. So, if you need to get rid of one to fix your sleep, let it be the caffeine that goes.
Yes, personally i have been clean and not so much right now, but as you state about the chronic use, in my experience the detrimental effect on sleep also tends to disappear...the afternoon coffee does disrupt sleep without tolerance but in chronic use you don't even notice any benefit from it so it makes sense it would at least disrupt sleep considerably less.
I do also think chronic use with COFFEE could be beneficial since the blood pressure rise is usually no longer present with chronic use. But i guess we would be venturing too far out if we start talking about coffee/caffeine, please point me to a thread if there is one.
 
Regardless, even that study you shared still states "Findings from the current study indicate that testosterone supplementation suppresses hepcidin in healthy human adults". So it is to be expected that ferritin also drops.

You say healthy men on t-therapy, with the current epidemic of secondary hypogonadism, most people getting on t are not too healthy, years of hypogonadism wreaks havoc in many cases.

As Funk said, there seems to also be many cases where the ferritin came back up eventually, one i know personally did say he took supplemental iron on top of red meat. Then again i know someone who's ferritin rose back on it's own, as did his hematocrit creep back down, makes sense. The latter had been on t-therapy for a good six months or so when it balanced and did lower his dose(longer injection frequency) a tiny bit as well.

This was interesting;

"Other possibilities include a direct effect of testosterone on bone morphogenetic protein (BMP)–sons of mother against decapentaplegic (SMAD) signaling (11) and/or the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, which suppresses hepcidin transcription (22, 23)."

chatgpt:

Key study: direct suppression of hepcidin by estradiol​


A 2012 paper in The Endocrine Society’s journal Endocrinology showed that 17β-estradiol (E2) directly reduced hepcidin transcription in liver cells. Researchers found:


  • Lower hepcidin mRNA in human hepatocyte cell lines after estradiol exposure
  • Suppression was blocked by an estrogen receptor antagonist
  • Estradiol acted through an estrogen response element (ERE) in the hepcidin promoter
  • Estradiol also reduced hepatic hepcidin expression in mice

Mechanistically, the paper proposed:


E2→ER→↓HAMP (hepcidin) transcriptionE2 \rightarrow ER \rightarrow \downarrow HAMP\,(hepcidin)\ transcriptionE2→ER→↓HAMP(hepcidin) transcription


where:


  • E2E2E2 = estradiol
  • ERERER = estrogen receptor
  • HAMP = the hepcidin gene

The authors explicitly concluded that estradiol suppresses hepcidin to increase iron availability.


Yes ferritin can decrease after initiating T therapy due to increased erythropoiesis and iron utilization.

Again progression into clearly low or iron-deficient ranges is less common in men with normal baseline iron stores, adequate intake and absorption, and no ongoing blood loss or frequent phlebotomy/blood donation.

Low baseline ferritin most commonly reflects iron deficiency related to chronic blood loss especially gastrointestinal, impaired iron absorption, inadequate intake, or increased physiologic demand.

This is why obtaining baseline ferritin, serum iron, TIBC, and transferrin saturation before initiating exogenous T is important for identifying pre-existing iron deficiency and monitoring changes over time.

Even then low ferritin is managed by treating the underlying cause and replenishing iron stores.

This is key!

Stopping any source of blood loss, correcting absorption problems, increasing dietary iron/oral supplements and using IV iron when oral iron is not effective or cannot be absorbed or tolerated

As I already sated previously clinically significant low ferritin during T therapy is more commonly seen with repeated phlebotomy/blood donation, inadequate iron intake, impaired absorption, ongoing blood loss, or pre-existing marginal iron stores rather than T therapy alone.
 
Yes, personally i have been clean and not so much right now, but as you state about the chronic use, in my experience the detrimental effect on sleep also tends to disappear...the afternoon coffee does disrupt sleep without tolerance but in chronic use you don't even notice any benefit from it so it makes sense it would at least disrupt sleep considerably less.
Without getting too far into the caffeine weeds, there is an unfortunate asymmetry to the tolerance development. Tolerance to the subjective benefits is complete*, while tolerance to the sleep disruption is only partial / incomplete. While there are some differences between individuals here, in their rate of caffeine metabolism, sensitivity to its effects, this asymmetrical tolerance makes chronic caffeine a net loser in many cases.

*there remains a small exercise performance benefit after tolerance develops but this is inconsequential for non-athletes.
 
Update with latest labs on lowered dose of Kyzatrex.

Cut daily dose in half to 200mg of Kyzatrex at breakfast and lunch starting on 5/15/2026.

Labs on 6/2/2026 @3pm (3.5 hours post lunch dose, 200mg BID):
Total T: 1887 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 445.3 (35-155 pg/mL)

Labs on 5/11/2026 @ 3pm (3.5 hours post lunch dose, 400mg BID):
Total T: 2069 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 570.2 (35-155 pg/mL)

Pretty surprised that my numbers weren't much lower. Was expecting TT around 1000 and FT around 285 as that would be roughly half my previous lab numbers on 400mg Kyzatrex at breakfast and lunch.

My sleep is still amazing (7-8 hours a night without waking). I feel very rested every morning. My workout performance is comparable to daily injections. My weight hasn't changed. Overall I feel fantastic.

Since others mentioned caffeine. I have drank a 16oz cold brew coffee daily around 1pm for at least 7 years and I still do.
 
Update with latest labs on lowered dose of Kyzatrex.

Cut daily dose in half to 200mg of Kyzatrex at breakfast and lunch starting on 5/15/2026.

Labs on 6/2/2026 @3pm (3.5 hours post lunch dose, 200mg BID):
Total T: 1887 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 445.3 (35-155 pg/mL)

Labs on 5/11/2026 @ 3pm (3.5 hours post lunch dose, 400mg BID):
Total T: 2069 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 570.2 (35-155 pg/mL)

Pretty surprised that my numbers weren't much lower. Was expecting TT around 1000 and FT around 285 as that would be roughly half my previous lab numbers on 400mg Kyzatrex at breakfast and lunch.

My sleep is still amazing (7-8 hours a night without waking). I feel very rested every morning. My workout performance is comparable to daily injections. My weight hasn't changed. Overall I feel fantastic.

Since others mentioned caffeine. I have drank a 16oz cold brew coffee daily around 1pm for at least 7 years and I still do.


Keep in mind the 3–4 hour level is a standardized peak window but still highly variable due to meal fat and day to day absorption so single draws can overlap between 200 mg and 400 mg.

The real dose difference shows more in overall exposure as in AUC and troughs.

That’s why sensible titration should be based on repeat peak trends plus symptoms not just one lab.

Should have also tested at true trough when you were dosing 400 mg BID and on your current protocol so you can truly compare.

Peak-->trough on 400 mg vs 200 mg BID would be ideal here for a true comparison.

Even then although you are still hitting an absurdly high TT and more importantly FT it is a fairly short-lived peak and your true trough would be much lower but the s**t kicker here is it may still be much higher then you would think seeing as your peak FT is absurdly high which would still have an impact on keeping the hematocrit elevated if your trough FT is still too high.

Again give us something to chew on here.

Test your true trough (pre-AM) dose especially seeing as you are still hitting an absurdly high peak FT 3.5 hrs post noon dose so come 5 pm your FT will still be absurdly high and chances are your true trough may very well turn out being much higher than you think.

If you feel great overall then stick with it but it would still be wise to test at true trough so you can see where it truly sits as this would be the only way to determine how much fluctuation is occurring over the dosing interval.
 
Keep in mind the 3–4 hour level is a standardized peak window but still highly variable due to meal fat and day to day absorption so single draws can overlap between 200 mg and 400 mg.

The real dose difference shows more in overall exposure as in AUC and troughs.

That’s why sensible titration should be based on repeat peak trends plus symptoms not just one lab.

Should have also tested at true trough when you were dosing 400 mg BID and on your current protocol so you can truly compare.

Peak-->trough on 400 mg vs 200 mg BID would be ideal here for a true comparison.

Even then although you are still hitting an absurdly high TT and more importantly FT it is a fairly short-lived peak and your true trough would be much lower but the s**t kicker here is it may still be much higher then you would think seeing as your peak FT is absurdly high which would still have an impact on keeping the hematocrit elevated if your trough FT is still too high.

Again give us something to chew on here.

Test your true trough (pre-AM) dose especially seeing as you are still hitting an absurdly high peak FT 3.5 hrs post noon dose so come 5 pm your FT will still be absurdly high and chances are your true trough may very well turn out being much higher than you think.

If you feel great overall then stick with it but it would still be wise to test at true trough so you can see where it truly sits as this would be the only way to determine how much fluctuation is occurring over the dosing interval.

Update with labs at true trough before taking my morning dose of Kyzatrex. These labs were on one 200mg Kyzatrex pill twice daily (8:15am-ish and noon-ish with meals). Included my last peak labs on the same dose for reference. Would love to hear your thoughts @madman and everyone else.

Labs on 8/4/2026 @ 8:54am (before morning dose, 200mg BID):
Total T: 55 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 10.7 (35-155 pg/mL)
Hematocrit: 54.5 (39.4-51.1 %)

Labs on 6/2/2026 @3pm (3.5 hours post lunch dose, 200mg BID):
Total T: 1887 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 445.3 (35-155 pg/mL)

I'm actually a little happy that my hematocrit is only 54.5. Would have loved lower, but I am on very high peak TT/FT numbers and I have not donated blood in 3 months so that's a win for me. Normally on injections, I would have a hematocrit of 54ish right after donating blood. We'll see where my hematocrit goes from here.

I am going to switch to one 100mg Kyzatrex pill BID to see if it even more effective at slowing/stopping the increase in my hematocrit.

I am a little surprised my TT/FT were so low at trough. I expected them to be low, just not that low. This essentially confirms my suspicion as to why I am sleeping so well on Kyzatrex. My overnight TT/FT being so low are almost definitely the reason. My doc has also said that everyone he switches from T cyp injections to Kyzatrex sleeps way better as well.
 
Update with labs at true trough before taking my morning dose of Kyzatrex. These labs were on one 200mg Kyzatrex pill twice daily (8:15am-ish and noon-ish with meals). Included my last peak labs on the same dose for reference. Would love to hear your thoughts @madman and everyone else.

Labs on 8/4/2026 @ 8:54am (before morning dose, 200mg BID):
Total T: 55 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 10.7 (35-155 pg/mL)
Hematocrit: 54.5 (39.4-51.1 %)

Labs on 6/2/2026 @3pm (3.5 hours post lunch dose, 200mg BID):
Total T: 1887 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T: 445.3 (35-155 pg/mL)

I'm actually a little happy that my hematocrit is only 54.5. Would have loved lower, but I am on very high peak TT/FT numbers and I have not donated blood in 3 months so that's a win for me. Normally on injections, I would have a hematocrit of 54ish right after donating blood. We'll see where my hematocrit goes from here.

I am going to switch to one 100mg Kyzatrex pill BID to see if it even more effective at slowing/stopping the increase in my hematocrit.

I am a little surprised my TT/FT were so low at trough. I expected them to be low, just not that low. This essentially confirms my suspicion as to why I am sleeping so well on Kyzatrex. My overnight TT/FT being so low are almost definitely the reason. My doc has also said that everyone he switches from T cyp injections to Kyzatrex sleeps way better as well.

Yes you can see how much your FT dropped from peak 44.5 ng/dL--->trough 10.7 ng/dL which is still healthy but far from robust.

Most likely the reason why you are sleeping much better as your T levels are not amped up 24/7 which will minimize amping up the CNS.

Even then something is off with your labs as there is no way you are hitting an absurdly low rock bottom TT 55 ng/dL especially with a trough FT 10.7 ng/dL.

Yes your peak TT and more importantly FT are very high but it would be short-lived mind you seeing as you are dosing your Kyzatrex using the hybrid protocol (early am/noon) then your high TT and more importantly FT will be sustained longer throughout the day vs the standard protocol (early am/evening) dosing 12 hrs apart.

The standard dosing protocol allows one to take advantage of 2 short-lived peaks with no overlap and T levels will be back or close to baseline 8-12 hrs post-dose which is beneficial for minimizing an increase in hematocrit.

Your hematocrit is still high and this is already 3 months in so doubtful it is going to come down much more.

You would most likely need to bring down your peak FT but even then I would say the standard dosing protocol (am/evening) may be more effective if lowering your hematocrit is the goal.

All the research/data available on Kyzatrex was done using the standard dosing protocol (am/evening).
 
Even then something is off with your labs as there is no way you are hitting an absurdly low rock bottom TT 55 ng/dL especially with a trough FT 10.7 ng/dL.

Sorry, just to clarify...FT was 10.7 pg/mL, not ng/dL which is consistent with the extremely low TT.

Free T: 10.7 (35-155 pg/mL)
 
Sorry, just to clarify...FT was 10.7 pg/mL, not ng/dL which is consistent with the extremely low TT.

Free T: 10.7 (35-155 pg/mL)

My mistake I was thinking 107 pg/mL.

You have lowish SHBG but that trough TT 55 ng/dL /FT 1.07 ng/dL are ridiculously low!

Would be interesting to see how many hours post noon dose has your FT hovering around 10-15 ng/dL.

Even then something to keep in mind here especially when using the shorter acting formulations.


* you only need testosterone levels up for about 4-6 hrs in the day to produce an effect which works through the androgen receptor, the androgen receptor is present in every cell in the body so its not just a sex hormone it is a health hormone


 
* you only need testosterone levels up for about 4-6 hrs in the day to produce an effect which works through the androgen receptor, the androgen receptor is present in every cell in the body so its not just a sex hormone it is a health hormone
For some of us with low shbg this approach is not viable as the afternoon/early evening crash is just too much...personally i can also feel the high peak in increased anxiousness. I feel like lots more people would stay on transdermals if this 4-6hr stimulation window was generally producing wellbeing.
Now for some using a gel or cream once per day results in maintaining some hpta activity, as proven by morning labs, would imagine this also to be the case for some on oral trt.
 
For some of us with low shbg this approach is not viable as the afternoon/early evening crash is just too much...personally i can also feel the high peak in increased anxiousness. I feel like lots more people would stay on transdermals if this 4-6hr stimulation window was generally producing wellbeing.
Now for some using a gel or cream once per day results in maintaining some hpta activity, as proven by morning labs, would imagine this also to be the case for some on oral trt.

I've been arguing against the usual claims about SHBG affecting pharmacokinetics for so long that it's hard to switch gears and acknowledge that with fast-acting testosterone it's likely a different story. It appears that the reduced buffering capacity of low SHBG does lead to higher spikes in serum testosterone and faster declines, even as average free testosterone is not affected much by SHBG variation.This could apply to the oral products and nasal gets, but usually not to the topical formulations. With the latter the skin itself is acting as the buffer, slowly dispensing the testosterone over many hours.

Sorry, just to clarify...FT was 10.7 pg/mL, not ng/dL which is consistent with the extremely low TT.

Free T: 10.7 (35-155 pg/mL)

To me this says the dose and exposure time are large enough to cause almost full HTPA suppression. This should be reflected in low values for LH and FSH.
 
With the latter the skin itself is acting as the buffer, slowly dispensing the testosterone over many hours.
In theory, but some data from from the manufacturers also shows subjects being back to baseline in 12hrs, for those who don't experience the hpta activation and stay shut down, once daily is not usually satisfactory, after all being significantly hypogonadal in the morning and way supraphysiological for a few hours is far from mimicking young males levels that have a fluctuation of 30% daily.
 
In theory, but some data from from the manufacturers also shows subjects being back to baseline in 12hrs,

Which data is that? I think you are referring to some Testavan language saying that "total testosterone concentrations return to pre-dose values approximately 12 hours after application". But this is referring to the trough level achieved with continuous use, as apparently levels stay pretty constant for the next 12 hours before the another application.

for those who don't experience the hpta activation and stay shut down, once daily is not usually satisfactory, after all being significantly hypogonadal in the morning and way supraphysiological for a few hours is far from mimicking young males levels that have a fluctuation of 30% daily.

There are lots of anecdotes of poor absorption with topical formulations. This doesn't imply they are short-acting, where almost all of the area-under-the-curve is generated in the first few hours. Chances are the half-lives are still longer than those of oral formulations, which seem to be around the average tipping point for HPTA suppression.
 
Which data is that? I think you are referring to some Testavan language saying that "total testosterone concentrations return to pre-dose values approximately 12 hours after application". But this is referring to the trough level achieved with continuous use, as apparently levels stay pretty constant for the next 12 hours before the another application.



There are lots of anecdotes of poor absorption with topical formulations. This doesn't imply they are short-acting, where almost all of the area-under-the-curve is generated in the first few hours. Chances are the half-lives are still longer than those of oral formulations, which seem to be around the average tipping point for HPTA suppression.
Many anecdotes on morning LH levels with once daily gel application, i suspect primary cases get this mostly.
Yes testavan and other newer formulations that claim increased penetration with additives.

1786780539065.webp

Levels are hypogonadal half of the day, this graph is just the average, not from a low shbg man.
Personally i also tried the original testogel in sachets...resulting in halving of morning testosterone compared to pre-trt (the exact same number in the morning that is captured below from the reddit thread). I don't have data on the peak so who knows if i was even absorbing much, definitely enough to shut down. So you are right to say pretty constant, constantly low.

Data in this thread seems to back up my experiences:
1786780863436.webp


Common sense just says it is suboptimal in older age to jack up your levels sky high only to let them come down and stay down for the next 12hrs, not a physiological pattern.
But not arguing against someone who does not suffer the crash and is satisfied with the short lived receptor saturation.
 
Common sense just says it is suboptimal in older age to jack up your levels sky high only to let them come down and stay down for the next 12hrs, not a physiological pattern.

It's an interesting point of discussion with no clear answer yet. The natural diurnal rhythm for older men is much flatter than that of younger men, with a peak-trough decline of less than 20%. Unanswered is whether this pattern is actually healthier for older men due to age-related changes, or is it simply a negative consequence of aging that is better counteracted? My personal experience is leaning me towards the second; restoring a more youthful delivery pattern seems to be reversing some aspects of age-related decline. That said, absolute levels still matter, and I would not do well with the large swings seen in the chart you posted. Optimal TT peaks for me are probably in the 500-700 ng/dL range, not >1,000 ng/dL. My optimal trough is probably around 300-400 ng/dL.

The published data for Androgel suggest less variation than with Testavan:

AndroGel (Testosterone Gel for Topical Use): Side Effects, Uses, Dosage ...
 

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