Skipped 3 pins and felt great

[FunkOdyssey]

Far from a given that injecting sub-q. is going to lead to higher e2 vs IM.

That's fair, and I did not say, nor would I ever say, that injecting subq is certain or even likely to lead to higher E2 vs IM. I said it's very common, and I'll define common the way they do for side effects of prescription medications: incidence rate greater than 10%. Based on what I've seen from reports of individuals measuring E2 in a controlled manner, holding other variables steady and changing only injection method, it happens commonly that E2 is higher, and T/E2 ratio is lower, with SC injection. That you find yourself in the majority who see no adverse effect of SC injection on E2, or perhaps even lower E2 and higher T/E2 ratio with SC vs IM, is fully compatible with what I'm describing.

I could name numerous top experts in the field that treat 1000s of men who would tell you otherwise.

I'm sure you can, but it does not negate what I've seen. Of course I have not directly treated anyone, but I am privy to the outcomes of thousands of men also, after years of paying careful attention to patient testimonies in this space. You can see the signal clearly even in the very limited patient group of ExcelMale participants, and if you expose yourself to much larger groups of patients elsewhere on the Internet (as I do), you will see the same pattern magnified many times over.

Need to renege on that one and next time round post the source!

I'm not reneging anything, but I do appreciate your diligence in posting the source when I could not be bothered to do so. As always, your commitment to TRT truths is appreciated even we disagree.

The first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the BIGGER picture.

Put money on it that the OP was and will be chasing his tail endlessly because he has never even given any protocol a fighting chance (12 weeks).

Yes, to see the full effects of a protocol, down to the last subtle details, you do probably have to wait that long. However, this guy's primary concern is an overwhelming "fight-or-flight" anxiety. When it comes to major, intolerable side effects like his, you do not need to wait that long to determine whether your protocol is on the right track. I would argue it is almost sadistic to recommend someone maintain a protocol for 12+ weeks when it is destroying their quality of life.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

My free DHT was at the very bottom end also

Even if it is, I still feel like this is a red herring in terms of your TRT difficulties to date. Don't take my word for it though. Try something that significantly increases your DHT level at some point and observe the effects. There are many options available now: topical testosterone, oral testosterone, injectable DHT, and topical DHT.

 

[Tylurnt]

Yes, to see the full effects of a protocol, down to the last subtle details, you do probably have to wait that long. However, this guy's primary concern is an overwhelming "fight-or-flight" anxiety. When it comes to major, intolerable side effects like his, you do not need to wait that long to determine whether your protocol is on the right track. I would argue it is almost sadistic to recommend someone maintain a protocol for 12+ weeks when it is destroying their quality of life

Exactly.. if its continuing to get worse after the first couple weeks and the side effects are getting unbearable...pretty sure thats my body saying this really isnt right. But to try hold out for 3 months every change, when trying to dial in is crazy! I understand when making a change you might feel a little crummy for a while...I can handle that. But I cant handle that fight or flight feelings all day long and the sleep severely broken up

 

[madman]

That's fair, and I did not say, nor would I ever say, that injecting subq is certain or even likely to lead to higher E2 vs IM. I said it's very common, and I'll define common the way they do for side effects of prescription medications: incidence rate greater than 10%. Based on what I've seen from reports of individuals measuring E2 in a controlled manner, holding other variables steady and changing only injection method, it happens commonly that E2 is higher, and T/E2 ratio is lower, with SC injection. That you find yourself in the majority who see no adverse effect of SC injection on E2, or perhaps even lower E2 and higher T/E2 ratio with SC vs IM, is fully compatible with what I'm describing.


I'm sure you can, but it does not negate what I've seen. Of course I have not directly treated anyone, but I am privy to the outcomes of thousands of men also, after years of paying careful attention to patient testimonies in this space. You can see the signal clearly even in the very limited patient group of ExcelMale participants, and if you expose yourself to much larger groups of patients elsewhere on the Internet (as I do), you will see the same pattern magnified many times over.


I'm not reneging anything, but I do appreciate your diligence in posting the source when I could not be bothered to do so. As always, your commitment to TRT truths is appreciated even we disagree.


Yes, to see the full effects of a protocol, down to the last subtle details, you do probably have to wait that long. However, this guy's primary concern is an overwhelming "fight-or-flight" anxiety. When it comes to major, intolerable side effects like his, you do not need to wait that long to determine whether your protocol is on the right track. I would argue it is almost sadistic to recommend someone maintain a protocol for 12+ weeks when it is destroying their quality of life.

You need to keep in mind that all those men on the forums you speak of represent a tiny slice of the TRT pie!

Every time you or many others speak on this tend to make it sound as if one is doomed for failure if they inject sub-q.

No one is denying that some men will feel worse when injecting sub-q and the sole blame here is not lack of effectiveness as in everyone and there brother is going to have higher e2 and lower T levels.

Hope you understand many of those top experts in the field start many of their patients on sub-q.

This so called needing to inject IM let alone start a man on IM is outdated!

Again you did a hack job on that illustration.

Pacman LMFAO!

Yes you need to renege on that one!

Interstitial fluid is a mostly water-based environment because its primary component (plasma ultra filtrate) is predominantly water.

Key point here - negligible spontaneous hydrolysis in water/hydrolysis of these esters likely occurring in the central circulation!


After IM or SC administration of a testosterone ester, absorption occurs first by diffusion from the depot into the interstitium (Figure 2B). The physiology of the IM and SC milieu determines the patterns of absorption after administration. Molecules smaller than 1 kDa, such as testosterone, are preferentially absorbed by the blood capillaries due to the high rate of filtration and reabsorption of fluid across vascular capillaries (39). However, the hydrolysis of testosterone esters by tissue esterases is a slow process due to their high lipophilicity, with negligible spontaneous hydrolysis in water (40). This results in some of the esterified testosterone to enter the lymphatics, thus prolonging the secondary absorption phase.

The interstitial fluid consists of plasma ultrafiltrate and proteins derived from tissue metabolism, and is drained by the lymphatics (41). Because of their lipophilicity, testosterone esters are unlikely to have significant diffusion into the tissues; they likely associate with small proteins and are drained via the lymphatics into the central circulation, with hydrolysis of these esters likely occurring in the central circulation (40).



Next time round be more specific when you are dishing out advice to a newb!

Again the first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the bigger picture.

Hormones are in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) the body is trying to adjust and it is common for one to experience ups/downs along the way which can be misleading.

Once blood levels have stabilize the next few months is the critical time period when one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall reading relief/improvement of low-T symptoms as the body needs time to adapt to it's new set-point.

Takes time for everything to settle.

Even then as I already stated this guy is running around in circles on here switching up his protocols way too soon.

These are the individuals setting themselves up for failure here.

Do not even get me started on those micro managers either you know who I am talking about here!

He and many still lack the understanding of how exogenous T works!

 

[Phil Goodman]

You need to keep in mind that all those men on the forums you speak of represent a tiny slice of the TRT pie!

Every time you or many others speak on this tend to make it sound as if one is doomed for failure if they inject sub-q.

No one is denying that some men will feel worse when injecting sub-q and the sole blame here is not lack of effectiveness as in everyone and there brother is going to have higher e2 and lower T levels.

Hope you understand many of those top experts in the field start many of their patients on sub-q.

This so called needing to inject IM let alone start a man on IM is outdated!

Again you did a hack job on that illustration.

Pacman LMFAO!

Yes you need to renege on that one!

Interstitial fluid is a mostly water-based environment because its primary component (plasma ultra filtrate) is predominantly water.

Key point here - negligible spontaneous hydrolysis in water/hydrolysis of these esters likely occurring in the central circulation!


After IM or SC administration of a testosterone ester, absorption occurs first by diffusion from the depot into the interstitium (Figure 2B). The physiology of the IM and SC milieu determines the patterns of absorption after administration. Molecules smaller than 1 kDa, such as testosterone, are preferentially absorbed by the blood capillaries due to the high rate of filtration and reabsorption of fluid across vascular capillaries (39). However, the hydrolysis of testosterone esters by tissue esterases is a slow process due to their high lipophilicity, with negligible spontaneous hydrolysis in water (40). This results in some of the esterified testosterone to enter the lymphatics, thus prolonging the secondary absorption phase.

The interstitial fluid consists of plasma ultrafiltrate and proteins derived from tissue metabolism, and is drained by the lymphatics (41). Because of their lipophilicity, testosterone esters are unlikely to have significant diffusion into the tissues; they likely associate with small proteins and are drained via the lymphatics into the central circulation, with hydrolysis of these esters likely occurring in the central circulation (40).



Next time round be more specific when you are dishing out advice to a newb!

Again the first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the bigger picture.

Hormones are in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) the body is trying to adjust and it is common for one to experience ups/downs along the way which can be misleading.

Once blood levels have stabilize the next few months is the critical time period when one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall reading relief/improvement of low-T symptoms as the body needs time to adapt to it's new set-point.

Takes time for everything to settle.

Even then as I already stated this guy is running around in circles on here switching up his protocols way too soon.

These are the individuals setting themselves up for failure here.

Do not even get me started on those micro managers either you know who I am talking about here!

He and many still lack the understanding of how exogenous T works!

1.) how did he make it sound like anyone who injects sub q is doomed to failure??


2.) are you even capable of having discussions with people without talking down to them? I mean… if you read his post it seems very carefully crafted to be as precise and accurate as possible and perfectly respectful to you for your contributions on this forum. And your response is to post as if he is an idiot while laughing at him. Not really surprised though…

 

[madman]

1.) how did he make it sound like anyone who injects sub q is doomed to failure??


2.) are you even capable of having discussions with people without talking down to them? I mean… if you read his post it seems very carefully crafted to be as precise and accurate as possible and perfectly respectful to you for your contributions on this forum. And your response is to post as if he is an idiot while laughing at him. Not really surprised though…

1.) how did he make it sound like anyone who injects sub q is doomed to failure??

I stated every time you or many others speak on this tend to make it sound as if one is doomed for failure if they inject sub-q.

Go back a read over all the posts he has made let alone some of the others and they tend to paint a grim picture here.

Clear as day!




2.) are you even capable of having discussions with people without talking down to them? I mean… if you read his post it seems very carefully crafted to be as precise and accurate as possible and perfectly respectful to you for your contributions on this forum. And your response is to post as if he is an idiot while laughing at him. Not really surprised though…


Carefully crafted LOL!

If you read over the post I pointed out the issues.

He never painted the full picture here when it comes to injecting strictly sub-q or telling someone 6+ weeks is far from being precise and accurate and let alone is out to lunch on hydrolysis of the ester here.

You call that being precise and accurate!



Go play!

I already told you nothing but BACKGROUND NOISE on here now!

 

[Phil Goodman]

1.) how did he make it sound like anyone who injects sub q is doomed to failure??

I stated every time you or many others speak on this tend to make it sound as if one is doomed for failure if they inject sub-q.

Go back a read over all the posts he has made let alone some of the others and they tend to paint a grim picture here.

Clear as day!




2.) are you even capable of having discussions with people without talking down to them? I mean… if you read his post it seems very carefully crafted to be as precise and accurate as possible and perfectly respectful to you for your contributions on this forum. And your response is to post as if he is an idiot while laughing at him. Not really surprised though…


Carefully crafted LOL!

If you read over the post I pointed out the issues.

He never painted the full picture here when it comes to injecting strictly sub-q or telling someone 6+ weeks is far from being precise and accurate and let alone is out to lunch on hydrolysis of the ester here.

You call that being precise and accurate!



Go play!

I already told you nothing but BACKGROUND NOISE on here now!

Ok, I read his post(s) and nothing came across as even remotely suggesting that everyone who dos sub q is doomed failure. Now I would like you to provide the quotes from that cause you to interpret to that way. Otherwise I’ll just assume it’s your interpretation of posts is the issue. And I know I’ve had the exact same problem with your interpretations in the past. I replied to a poster with general guidance trying to be helpful, my post was later revealed to be completely accurate with regard to the topic (his hematocrit stabilizing after around 6 months) and to damn near had a stroke screaming about how dumb I was to suggest such a thing. Again, your dedication to sharing information on here is appreciated, but sadly your knowledge is often overshadowed by your ego because you aren’t the end-all-be-all source of information and you come across as an XXXXXXX quite often. Which, honestly there are a handful of assholes that I like so I don’t necessarily have a problem with someone just due to them being an XXXXXXX, but don’t be surprised to be called out on it when you constantly come across that way.

Technically he said 6+ weeks… as in “at least six week before pulling the cord”. Then as usual with your incredible reading comprehension (just like in the hematocrit thread where you flipped out on me despite the fact it was revealed I was 100% correct) you spaz and just go “omg you retard how could you DARE tell someone they’ll know for sure in six weeks… that means nothing in the big picture LOL”. Funk has made plenty of respectable posts in this thread in the hopes of helping someone and all you’ve done is talk down to him.