Results: SubQ vs IM @ 70mg/week

[SH3P]

I made a post a while back about switching from SubQ to IM due to emotional blunting/flatness. It seemed to help, so I stayed on IM for 8-10 weeks. Then, I got some bloods taken and these were the results.

Both were using the same dose and schedule. Everyday injections at 70mg/week total. Blood drawn next day before injection.

Honestly surprised to see such a major difference being that I'm dosing everyday. I know IM absorbs faster, but damn. I wonder if I'm absorbing it quicker than the average guy.

Also something to note: My HGB, HCT, and RBC count all went up a couple points after 8-10 weeks of being back on IM.

Switched back to subQ about 2 weeks ago to see if the emotional blunting was purely psychological. Should know within the next couple of weeks if that feeling returns. Thought I'd share for those curious about IM vs SubQ. A lot of variance from person-to-person with this kind of stuff, with some people being the complete opposite.

 

[Pnw0031]

Fascinating stuff, which one do you feel better on? And which ester is this?

 

[Vince]

Very good post. Honestly though I do not know if it does make that big of a difference. Because my labs very even though I keep the same protocol.

 

[SH3P]

Fascinating stuff, which one do you feel better on? And which ester is this?

This is on Test C. I felt kind of "bleh" after months on subQ and seemed to feel better a few days after switching back to IM. That kind of faded out after a while. Went back to subQ and feel fine now. Perhaps that feeling of emotional blunting was situational. Not sure yet.

The differences between the two have been somewhat negligible overall with performance in the gym and perhaps a slight better body composition on subQ.

 

[SH3P]

Very good post. Honestly though I do not know if it does make that big of a difference. Because my labs very even though I keep the same protocol.

I remember seeing that you do a site rotation that includes both IM and SubQ. That actually might be the best middle ground in terms of stability and feeling, assuming that better feeling is associated with IM. Best of both worlds.

I think I might be peaking hard on IM with a fast taper, and that peak is causing my RBCs, HCT, and HGB to climb back up.

 

[Systemlord]

I think I might be peaking hard on IM with a fast taper, and that peak is causing my RBCs, HCT, and HGB to climb back up.

There's always oral T if you're having issues with CBC. Oral T affects CBC much less than injections even though the peaks are more rapid. Try to imagine going from a trough of 289 to 989 in 2 hours.

 

[SH3P]

There's always oral T if you're having issues with CBC. Oral T affects CBC much less than injections even though the peaks are more rapid. Try to imagine going from a trough of 289 to 989 in 2 hours.

I've seen some oral form going around from Maximus that's supposedly proprietary or something. People seem to get good results with it. I got my HCT/HGB under control with subq and everyday dosing. I just gotta go back to that. Oh, and start wearing my CPAP regularly again. Been bad about it, so that could be a contributing factor in this last CBC.

 

[Systemlord]

I've seen some oral form going around from Maximus that's supposedly proprietary or something.

No, I’m talking about a different type of oral testosterone, commercially available. Jatenzo and Kyzatrex. These both have clinical trials showing the efficiency rating to be quite high, comparable or better than injections with regards to side effects.

 

[Willyt]

Great stuff thanks for sharing the tests. Key point is that your testing was done at daily trough. Several forum members have noted that IM has higher peak but lower trough. It would be interesting to see what the daily peak was for each (but I know that asking is a lot and I'm certainly too lazy to do it!). Regardless, it certainly looks like Subq has the higher TT

Maybe the peak-trough swing is why guys like you (and me) feel slightly better on IM with less flatness. Of course some would argue that Cypionate would not have much a swing for daily injections.

One thing I've noticed on low dose daily is that SubQ results in low E2 for me - maybe too low. I've tried rotating between Subq and IM with mixed results.

 

[mrblonde01]

If you inject daily, wouldn't it be better to go on a short acting ester like propionate?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Maybe the peak-trough swing is why guys like you (and me) feel slightly better on IM with less flatness.

It is certainly this - the only doubt surrounds the exact mechanisms, whether it be effects on dopamine receptor sensitivity, less HPTA suppression near the trough, giving tissues a break from constant high levels, etc. There is no doubt though that greater fluctuation is what causes "better feels" in almost everyone on shorter-acting modalities (prop, cream, oral).

I've gone back and forth between enanthate and propionate like a billion times now, which is a good exercise for anyone that wants to develop an appreciation for the subjective benefits of fluctuation vs. drawbacks of permanent steady state levels.

 

[Cataceous]

Regarding the emotional blunting, high and/or steady testosterone levels can mess with the adrenal axis, which in turn can yield the emotional effects. There can also be effects on dopamine and serotonin.

Here's an interesting statement I found earlier.

Because circulating T normally fluctuates over a diurnal rhythm, delivery of T in a manner that mimics this diurnal rhythm may be more effective in suppressing stress-related HPA activity than constant levels of T replacement would be.​

https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/16/5/1866.full.pdf

 

[madman]

It is certainly this - the only doubt surrounds the exact mechanisms, whether it be effects on dopamine receptor sensitivity, less HPTA suppression near the trough, giving tissues a break from constant high levels, etc. There is no doubt though that greater fluctuation is what causes "better feels" in almost everyone on shorter-acting modalities (prop, cream, oral).

I've gone back and forth between enanthate and propionate like a billion times now, which is a good exercise for anyone that wants to develop an appreciation for the subjective benefits of fluctuation vs. drawbacks of permanent steady state levels.

Trough time at really low levels injecting TP daily would be minimal for the majority as most are still running high/absurdly high troughs let alone there would still be strong suppression of the hpta even when running mid-normal trough T levels in the physiological range.

Formulation/PKs, dosing protocol/minimum effective doses needed to raise T levels in order to achieve a healthy FT level in order to provide relief/improvement of symptoms will results in suppression of the hpta.

Long and medium-acting injectable esterified TU/TC/TE/mixed will have the strongest impact.

Again as I have stated numerous times on the forum even short-acting injectable esterified TP can still have a strong suppressive effect on the hpta!

As I stated in a previous thread when using daily short-acting TP the T levels achieved peak vs trough let alone the time period over those 24 hrs T levels are elevated whether mid-range/high/absurdly high will still result in a strong suppression of the hpta.

Top it off there are many of those clueless SHEEP injecting daily TP hitting very high/absurdly high peaks let alone high-end/high troughs!

In such cases you are still hammering the shit out of your dopamine!

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Trough time at really low levels injecting TP daily would be minimal for the majority as most are still running high/absurdly high troughs let alone there would still be strong suppression of the hpta even when running mid-normal trough T levels in the physiological range.

Formulation/PKs, dosing protocol/minimum effective doses needed to raise T levels in order to achieve a healthy FT level in order to provide relief/improvement of symptoms will results in suppression of the hpta.

Long and medium-acting injectable esterified TU/TC/TE/mixed will have the strongest impact.

Again as I have stated numerous times on the forum even short-acting injectable esterified TP can still have a strong suppressive effect on the hpta

As I stated in a previous thread when using daily short-acting TP the T levels achieved peak vs trough let alone the time period over those 24 hrs T levels are elevated whether mid-range/high/absurdly high will still result in a strong suppression of the hpta.

Top it off there are many of those clueless SHEEP injecting daily TP hitting very high/absurdly high peaks let alone high-end/high troughs.

In such cases you are still hammering the shit out of your dopamine!

Fair points on high dose TP still being strongly suppressive of HPTA. The fact remains that it feels better for most people at any given dose than similar dose of long esters (even when doses/levels are "absurdly" high).

What do you think the mechanisms are for that?

 

[madman]

It is certainly this - the only doubt surrounds the exact mechanisms, whether it be effects on dopamine receptor sensitivity, less HPTA suppression near the trough, giving tissues a break from constant high levels, etc. There is no doubt though that greater fluctuation is what causes "better feels" in almost everyone on shorter-acting modalities (prop, cream, oral).

I've gone back and forth between enanthate and propionate like a billion times now, which is a good exercise for anyone that wants to develop an appreciation for the subjective benefits of fluctuation vs. drawbacks of permanent steady state levels.

Again look up the PKs (TP vs oral TU vs Nasal T-gel)!

Throw in the 2-3 daily peaks (short-lived) ---> trough levels achieved on Nasal T-gel the 2 daily peaks (shorter-lived) ---> trough levels achieved on oral TU (Jatenzo, oral Tlando and Kyzatrex)) compared to the daily peak--->trough levels achieved by most of those clueless SHEEP stinking up those so called men's health/HRT forums!

Night and f**KING day here!

 

[madman]

Fair points on high dose TP still being strongly suppressive of HPTA. The fact remains that it feels better for most people at any given dose than similar dose of long esters (even when doses/levels are "absurdly" high).

What do you think the mechanisms are for that?

It's the T levels achieved (peak/trough/steady-state) on said dose and even then many men can still easily hit a mid-normal physiological trough TT/FT injecting lower daily doses of TP which will still result in strong suppression of the HPTA!

Again when using daily short-acting TP the T levels achieved peak vs trough let alone the time period over those 24 hrs T levels are elevated whether mid-range/high/absurdly high will still result in a strong suppression of the hpta.

Certain individuals may fare better overall using a formulation which would result in daily swings but even then the number of men injecting daily TP on TTh is a drop in the bucket compared to TC/TE!

 

[Willyt]

It is certainly this - the only doubt surrounds the exact mechanisms, whether it be effects on dopamine receptor sensitivity, less HPTA suppression near the trough, giving tissues a break from constant high levels, etc. There is no doubt though that greater fluctuation is what causes "better feels" in almost everyone on shorter-acting modalities (prop, cream, oral).

I've gone back and forth between enanthate and propionate like a billion times now, which is a good exercise for anyone that wants to develop an appreciation for the subjective benefits of fluctuation vs. drawbacks of permanent steady state levels.

Like you, I have experimented a lot with straight propionate, but always returned to enanthate. I would have expected prop to trigger a bigger dopamine rush, but the swing was always too big of a drop. More like a triple expresso for me. There is a happy medium somewhere in between.

Periodically I try to manipulate dopamine by alternating dose level day-to-day such as: 10-8-10-8-10, etc. It works like a charm on the 10mg days, but I pay for it dearly that night with early AM insomnia. The body is hard to fool!

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Like you, I have experimented a lot with straight propionate, but always returned to enanthate. I would have expected prop to trigger a bigger dopamine rush, but the swing was always too big of a drop. More like a triple expresso for me. There is a happy medium somewhere in between.

What's the longest you've stayed on propionate? I experienced overstimulation followed by an evening crash in early days with prop, but it eventually went away. IME, the fully-adapted-to-propionate state is superior to the same point in an enanthate protocol, but I know everyone reacts differently, if that isn't the case for you.

 

[Willyt]

What's the longest you've stayed on propionate? I experienced overstimulation followed by an evening crash in early days with prop, but it eventually went away. IME, the fully-adapted-to-propionate state is superior to the same point in an enanthate protocol, but I know everyone reacts differently, if that isn't the case for you.

I was on straight Prop for several months. Even low dose @ 8mg daily put my TT over 1200. But yes same afternoon crash as you. I even tried 2x daily prop (one morning + one afternoon).

I later switched to @Cataceous blend of propionate and enanthate and tried very ratio under the sun. I have back on straight low dose daily Enanthate.

Where are you getting your propionate now? Defy no longer carries as you probably already know.

 

[Willyt]

@SH3P I forgot to ask what did your E2 look like in the two protocols?