Bloodwork 80mg IM vs SubQ

[bixt]

Bloodwork 80mg subQ vs IM

SubQ. 8 weeks 5/16 in thighs and glute. 40mg E3D. TT: 540 FT: 26 E2: 34 Shbg: 13 IM. 4.5 weeks, same dose 25g 1inch glutes. TT: 784 FT:32 E2: 26 SHBG: 11 Interesting numbers. I was bloated and gyno was hard and itching, sleep was meh on subQ. Lost the water weight and gyno on IM, better...

www.professionalmuscle.com

Fresh fresh bloodwork

@madman @Cataceous


Yeah yeah, he didn't mention the assays used. Guess what, I don't care! I have been preaching this mantra for a while now, and new bloodwork keeps popping up. And this guy stuck with SubQ for 8 weeks, so the AUC hypothesis wont help find the missing T.

I read T forums of all kinds widely. This lower T higher E story on subQ is perhaps the only thing common across diverse forums (BB forums, bro forums, proper TRT forums, country specific local forums etc).

 

[Cataceous]

... And this guy stuck with SubQ for 8 weeks, so the AUC hypothesis wont help find the missing T.

I read T forums of all kinds widely. This lower T higher E story on subQ is perhaps the only thing common across diverse forums (BB forums, bro forums, proper TRT forums, country specific local forums etc).

In my mind a few anecdotes carry little weight compared to a controlled study that was subjected to peer review and published. This guy didn't measure AUC, so nothing can be said about "missing" testosterone. He doesn't even say when he tested relative to injections. Can you come up with a plausible hypothesis for how testosterone might go missing, assuming no injection site leakage? Hard to do without contradicting existing research on pharmacokinetics, including the following.

Relative to 200 mg IM TE, the two doses of 100 mg SC TE (week 5 and week 6 combined) demonstrated similar AUC0-inf, suggesting that the bioavailability of TE is similar whether administered SC or IM.​

...

The ratios of T to metabolites were similar, suggesting that the conversion rate of T to its metabolites was similar across groups.​

Pharmacokinetic Profile of Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate Delivered via a Novel, Prefilled Single‐Use Autoinjector: A Phase II Study - PMC

Hypogonadism is one of the most common male endocrine problems. Although many treatments are currently available, unmet need exists for new testosterone (T) replacement therapies that are simple to administer and use, are safe, and mimic physiologic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Jucaro]

Bloodwork 80mg subQ vs IM

SubQ. 8 weeks 5/16 in thighs and glute. 40mg E3D. TT: 540 FT: 26 E2: 34 Shbg: 13 IM. 4.5 weeks, same dose 25g 1inch glutes. TT: 784 FT:32 E2: 26 SHBG: 11 Interesting numbers. I was bloated and gyno was hard and itching, sleep was meh on subQ. Lost the water weight and gyno on IM, better...

www.professionalmuscle.com

Fresh fresh bloodwork

@madman @Cataceous


Yeah yeah, he didn't mention the assays used. Guess what, I don't care! I have been preaching this mantra for a while now, and new bloodwork keeps popping up. And this guy stuck with SubQ for 8 weeks, so the AUC hypothesis wont help find the missing T.

I read T forums of all kinds widely. This lower T higher E story on subQ is perhaps the only thing common across diverse forums (BB forums, bro forums, proper TRT forums, country specific local forums etc).

I tried SbQ 3 years ago. Only 87.5 mg a week (37.5 mg every 3 days). After a month I was bloated, red face, high blood pressure... Didn't do any tests for E2 but switched back to 87.5mg IM once a week and all was well within a couple of weeks..
I'll never try testosterone SQ again...

 

[madman]

Bloodwork 80mg subQ vs IM

SubQ. 8 weeks 5/16 in thighs and glute. 40mg E3D. TT: 540 FT: 26 E2: 34 Shbg: 13 IM. 4.5 weeks, same dose 25g 1inch glutes. TT: 784 FT:32 E2: 26 SHBG: 11 Interesting numbers. I was bloated and gyno was hard and itching, sleep was meh on subQ. Lost the water weight and gyno on IM, better...

www.professionalmuscle.com

Fresh fresh bloodwork

@madman @Cataceous


Yeah yeah, he didn't mention the assays used. Guess what, I don't care! I have been preaching this mantra for a while now, and new bloodwork keeps popping up. And this guy stuck with SubQ for 8 weeks, so the AUC hypothesis wont help find the missing T.

I read T forums of all kinds widely. This lower T higher E story on subQ is perhaps the only thing common across diverse forums (BB forums, bro forums, proper TRT forums, country specific local forums etc).

Still, caught up on those handfuls of bum ass anecdotes?

All those ones that had lab work done using the same lab, same assay (most accurate) TT/estradiol (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) let alone followed all the critical points needed when comparing blood work.....LMFAO!

The men on all those forums represent a slice of the trt pie!

Post labs (screenshots)?

Same lab (Labcorp/Quest)?

Same assays TT/estradiol (LC-MS/MS), FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or ultrafiltration)?

Same testing true trough?

Doubtful he even tested using accurate assays.

So there is no point in even comparing!

Even with a decent TT 540 ng/dL and low-end SHBG 13 nmol/L his FT would most likely be in the high teens/low 20s ng/dL.

With a robust TT 745 ng/dL and low-end SHBG 11 nmol/L his FT would most likely be in the high 20s ng/dL range (top-end).

A big difference between his FT levels.

Put $$$ on it that he used this bum ass test for TT/FT.

140103: Testosterone, Free, Direct With Total Testosterone | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Direct With Total Testosterone

www.labcorp.com

Again for the last f**king time!

You want to bring that s**t on here then post screenshots for labwork which show the lab/assay used let alone make sure the OP was following all the critical points which need to be addressed when comparing bloodwork.

Bet he slipped up on point 5.

Otherwise, you stick to all those other bum ass forums and keep that romper room bulls**t off here!

When it comes to comparing blood work whether one is following a strictly sub-q protocol, strictly IM protocol let alone sub-q vs IM protocol they are following the steps needed in order to make a fair comparison.


Critical Points

1. The protocol needs to be kept the same (ester/dose T/injection frequency)

2. 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize before getting blood work done (6 weeks)

3. Testing is done at the true trough

4. Using the same lab

5. Using the same assays (most accurate) TT/e2 (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration)

6. Each protocol needs to be given 12 weeks (claim success or failure)


Only then can one make the claim whether the protocol was truly a success or failure let alone when comparing blood levels.

 

[madman]

Bloodwork 80mg subQ vs IM

SubQ. 8 weeks 5/16 in thighs and glute. 40mg E3D. TT: 540 FT: 26 E2: 34 Shbg: 13 IM. 4.5 weeks, same dose 25g 1inch glutes. TT: 784 FT:32 E2: 26 SHBG: 11 Interesting numbers. I was bloated and gyno was hard and itching, sleep was meh on subQ. Lost the water weight and gyno on IM, better...

www.professionalmuscle.com

Fresh fresh bloodwork

@madman @Cataceous


Yeah yeah, he didn't mention the assays used. Guess what, I don't care! I have been preaching this mantra for a while now, and new bloodwork keeps popping up. And this guy stuck with SubQ for 8 weeks, so the AUC hypothesis wont help find the missing T.

I read T forums of all kinds widely. This lower T higher E story on subQ is perhaps the only thing common across diverse forums (BB forums, bro forums, proper TRT forums, country specific local forums etc).

Better yet get back to me when everyone making the claim that injecting strictly sub-q has them hitting a lower TT/higher estradiol compared to IM when they have had their TT/estradiol levels tested using LC-MS/MS through a lab that has been certified by the CDC's HoSt Program!


post#6

Choose Quest or Labcorp?

This last year I have had my labs done by Interpath, Quest, and Labcorp, basically I used whatever lab the doctor's office used. Going foward I am going to select and stick with the same lab so that comparing my historical results is more consistent. Discounted Labs doesn't cover my state...

www.excelmale.com

* the participating assays are bench-marked to a higher-order reference method and calibrator

 

[madman]

Bloodwork 80mg subQ vs IM

SubQ. 8 weeks 5/16 in thighs and glute. 40mg E3D. TT: 540 FT: 26 E2: 34 Shbg: 13 IM. 4.5 weeks, same dose 25g 1inch glutes. TT: 784 FT:32 E2: 26 SHBG: 11 Interesting numbers. I was bloated and gyno was hard and itching, sleep was meh on subQ. Lost the water weight and gyno on IM, better...

www.professionalmuscle.com

Fresh fresh bloodwork

@madman @Cataceous


Yeah yeah, he didn't mention the assays used. Guess what, I don't care! I have been preaching this mantra for a while now, and new bloodwork keeps popping up. And this guy stuck with SubQ for 8 weeks, so the AUC hypothesis wont help find the missing T.

I read T forums of all kinds widely. This lower T higher E story on subQ is perhaps the only thing common across diverse forums (BB forums, bro forums, proper TRT forums, country specific local forums etc).

Out to lunch.....indefinitely!

Back to the herd, I say.

Round up some of the other sheep that continue to lurk on here.

 

[bixt]

Thanks guys @madman @Cataceous for your feedback.

Its just a recurring theme I keep continuing to see.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

March 2021 Testosterone undeconate 750mg IM
Test Name In Range Out Of Range Reference Range Lab
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, RGA
MALES (ADULT), IA 981 H 250-827 ng/dL
PSA, TOTAL 0.7 < OR = 4.0 ng/mL RGA

1 year later

March 2022 Testosterone cypionate Sub-q using 200mg every 10 days as prescribed:
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, RGA
MALES (ADULT), IA 2103 H 250-827 ng/dL
Verified by repeat analysis.

No missing T here, huh?

I have done IM injections for the better part of my life.....42+ years. with at least 1 IM injection per week for that length of time, it has gotten really old. 7-8 years ago Dr. Crisler talked me into I trying sub-`q and I will not go back to IM again. My serum T levels when off like a rocket going sub-q. Never had a problem with estrogen either way. Never had to take any of the anti-estrogen drugs and never will. If you are having high estrogen symptoms then cut your dose and avoid all of this extra medication.

This is also the 1st time I had to cut the dose that my doctor prescribed in half because it was just too much. 2103 is not TRT. My doctor will be shocked tomorrow when I see him. Just for the record, I have also used other anabolics in the past sub-q and had great results. Nandrolone, testosterone enanthate, methenolone enanthate, Stanozolol, and even Trenbolone acetate. Great results with very low doses.

All I can say from years of experience is you sooner or later will develop callous/scar tissue around all of those IM injection sites in the muscles of the glutes. It will become increasingly hard to find a place you can still inject. Hitting those hard places makes it impossible to inject the oil and in times I have bent needles or popped the needle off with the pressure of the oil that will not inject. Sub-q, I do not have those issues at all.

 

[tareload]

Wow, what am I reading here? Mind blown.

 

[bixt]

March 2021 Testosterone undeconate 750mg IM
Test Name In Range Out Of Range Reference Range Lab
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, RGA
MALES (ADULT), IA 981 H 250-827 ng/dL
PSA, TOTAL 0.7 < OR = 4.0 ng/mL RGA

1 year later

March 2022 Testosterone cypionate Sub-q using 200mg every 10 days as prescribed:
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, RGA
MALES (ADULT), IA 2103 H 250-827 ng/dL
Verified by repeat analysis.

Well done on good levels, your response to subq is nothing short of phenomenal. But sadly we cannot use the above comparison for our argument.

We cannot compare large doses of infrequent Nebido IM (and you haven't mentioned time between shots) to more frequent Subq.

To compare properly we need:

1. same dose
2. same ester
3. same injection frequency

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Absolutely we can not but the point is I had a very good blood testosterone level at the end of 3 months with IM. With the TU I went 750mg (which is a standard TRT dose) every 12 weeks (3 months). Again the testing was done on the last day of 12 weeks. I seem to have even better results with sub-q.

How about this one at the end of 8 days of a 10 day cycle I just got this

April 2022 testosterone cypionate 100mg sub -q
Test Name In Range Out Of Range Reference Range Lab
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, RGA
MALES (ADULT), IA 831 H 250-827 ng/dL
Verified by repeat analysis.

comparison both taken on the 8th day of a 10 day cycle

March 2022 Testosterone cypionate Sub-q using 200mg every 10 days as prescribed:
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, RGA
MALES (ADULT), IA 2103 H 250-827 ng/dL
Verified by repeat analysis.

So with 200mg I got 2103 and 100mg I got 831. 200mg every 10 days is certainly not on the high end but the total serum t levels sure were over the top. Is sub-q for everyone? Possibly not. We are all slightly different.