Subq increased aromatiztion

[microbeast]

One would think Subq injections would lead to lower rates of aromatiztion due to less blood supply in fat tissue. However this has absolutely not been the case for me. I was doing IM injections here for months even years. I did try subq injections before but I didn't make the correlation of increased aromatiztion until recently. In this last couple weeks my aromatiztion has gone through the roof. I even have lowered my dose but still have had increased aromatiztion. As soon as I started subq literally immediately I noticed an extreme increase in aromatiztion. I injected subq and in literally minutes began to get high estrogen symptoms i am more than familiar with. It always starts with minor anxiety that begins to get worse and worse if left untreated. I also get blood pressure spikes through the roof. We're talk 180/100+. At first I didn't make the connection. I have always had unpredictable rates of aromatiztion however there is typically a trend. The next subq injection the same thing happened. I immediately begun to search for anecdotal experiences with subq vs IM experiences and noticed many men saying the same thing. I know this doesn't make sense. I will say maybe it's possible that because aromatiztion occurs mostly in adipose tissue that this may be why it leads to increased aromatiztion. This is just a theory but it sounds possible. I have also read that men need less testosterone to reach the same levels with subq vs IM. Anyhow this is eye opening and very interesting. I would love to hear anyone else who has gone from IM to subq or vice-versa.

 

[Systemlord]

I injected subq and in literally minutes began to get high estrogen symptoms i am more than familiar with.

Me too, within minutes I was in a mental stupar, felt extremely high and sleepy for several hours.

A similar feeling to smoking marijuana and 64 fluid ounces of Canadian whiskey.

I will say maybe it's possible that because aromatiztion occurs mostly in adipose tissue

Yes, aromatization occurs mostly in adipose tissue.

 

[Cataceous]

Everything old is new again. @Systemlord, you have no excuse since you participated in the thread.

If you were injecting straight testosterone then having it encounter and interact with more aromatase in fatty tissue would at least be a theoretical possibility. However, testosterone esters such as testosterone cypionate are essentially inert at the injection sites; they cannot be aromatized. Instead they must be absorbed, and only when they reach the bloodstream do they encounter enzymes that strip off the esters, leaving the biologically active testosterone free to interact with aromatase, SHBG, androgen receptors, etc.​

​

The absorption mechanisms for subcutaneous and intramuscular injected depots are somewhat different. This leads to differing rates of absorption, which in turn are reflected in differing levels of serum testosterone over time. The data suggest that in general IM depots absorb faster than SC depots. This means that serum testosterone with IM goes up faster and higher, but also drops sooner and lower. You get higher peaks and lower troughs, but overall the same amount of testosterone is delivered at the same dose, so that average levels are the same between IM and SC. The differing serum levels are reflected in metabolites such as estradiol. The expectation is that at pre-injection troughs the level of estradiol is higher with SC injections than with IM injections. However, the opposite is expected at peak serum levels.​

...

The clinical trial for Xyosted compared intramuscular to subcutaneous injections. Regarding the production of DHT and estradiol, they conclude "The ratios of T to metabolites were similar, suggesting that the conversion rate of T to its metabolites was similar across groups."​

 

[Systemlord]

Yes, aromatization occurs mostly in adipose tissue.

However, testosterone esters such as testosterone cypionate are essentially inert at the injection sites; they cannot be aromatized.

Then how do you explain men getting significantly higher estrogen doing SQ?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Then how do you explain men getting significantly higher estrogen doing SQ?

If you're measuring at trough which most do, you should always see higher trough E2 on SC injections due to the slower absorption as explained above:

The data suggest that in general IM depots absorb faster than SC depots. This means that serum testosterone with IM goes up faster and higher, but also drops sooner and lower. You get higher peaks and lower troughs, but overall the same amount of testosterone is delivered at the same dose, so that average levels are the same between IM and SC. The differing serum levels are reflected in metabolites such as estradiol. The expectation is that at pre-injection troughs the level of estradiol is higher with SC injections than with IM injections.

If you don't see a higher trough E2 when you switch from IM to SC injections that's actually a bad sign -- you probably aren't absorbing the dose completely anymore. The lower SC absorption phenomenon, whether it is real and how often it occurs, is central to the debate around IM vs SC injections.

 

[excelnelg]

Can someone quickly list symptoms of high aromatization and/or estrogen?

 

[microbeast]

Everything old is new again. @Systemlord, you have no excuse since you participated in the thread.

If you were injecting straight testosterone then having it encounter and interact with more aromatase in fatty tissue would at least be a theoretical possibility. However, testosterone esters such as testosterone cypionate are essentially inert at the injection sites; they cannot be aromatized. Instead they must be absorbed, and only when they reach the bloodstream do they encounter enzymes that strip off the esters, leaving the biologically active testosterone free to interact with aromatase, SHBG, androgen receptors, etc.​

​

The absorption mechanisms for subcutaneous and intramuscular injected depots are somewhat different. This leads to differing rates of absorption, which in turn are reflected in differing levels of serum testosterone over time. The data suggest that in general IM depots absorb faster than SC depots. This means that serum testosterone with IM goes up faster and higher, but also drops sooner and lower. You get higher peaks and lower troughs, but overall the same amount of testosterone is delivered at the same dose, so that average levels are the same between IM and SC. The differing serum levels are reflected in metabolites such as estradiol. The expectation is that at pre-injection troughs the level of estradiol is higher with SC injections than with IM injections. However, the opposite is expected at peak serum levels.​

...

The clinical trial for Xyosted compared intramuscular to subcutaneous injections. Regarding the production of DHT and estradiol, they conclude "The ratios of T to metabolites were similar, suggesting that the conversion rate of T to its metabolites was similar across groups."​

Interesting thanks for sharing!

 

[microbeast]

Me too, within minutes I was in a mental stupar, felt extremely high and sleepy for several hours.

A similar feeling to smoking marijuana and 64 fluid ounces of Canadian whiskey.

Yes, aromatization occurs mostly in adipose tissue.

Yea its very odd.

 

[Cataceous]

...
If you don't see a higher trough E2 when you switch from IM to SC injections that's actually a bad sign -- you probably aren't absorbing the dose completely anymore. The lower SC absorption phenomenon, whether it is real and how often it occurs, is central to the debate around IM vs SC injections.

I remain skeptical that incomplete absorption is a real thing, except for injection site leakage. The latter is something that I experience occasionally, and it could be the primary reason for these claims. It's easy to miss if you don't shine a bright light on the area. I think otherwise it's generally accepted that absorption is close to 100%. Where is the testosterone supposed to go if it's never absorbed?

 

[microbeast]

Can someone quickly list symptoms of high aromatization and/or estrogen?

For me at least the very first thing I notice is anxiety fallowed by very high blood pressure. Then if left untreated both symptoms keep intensifying. I will also get soft errections and inability to orgasam.

 

[microbeast]

Then how do you explain men getting significantly higher estrogen doing SQ?

Yea all I know is I 100% get much larger spikes in estrogen. I agree it makes sense that IM should be absorbed quicker due to greater blood supply in muscle versus fat but I absolutely get more and faster estrogen production with Subq.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I injected subq and in literally minutes began to get high estrogen symptoms i am more than familiar with. It always starts with minor anxiety that begins to get worse and worse if left untreated.

I'll tell you my theory: negative reactions that occur to testosterone injections in "literally minutes" are caused by excipients rather than testosterone. Or if testosterone is playing a role, it is only because benzyl benzoate causes a massive acute spike of testosterone release. Otherwise, medium and long esters of testosterone are released too slowly to do anything you could feel within minutes.

If you are having problems with anxiety on reasonable doses of compounded cypionate, you have to try pharma enanthate without benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol (Delatestryl and generics like Hikma T enanthate). I have multiple success stories now resolving all kinds of weird side effects, anxiety, insomnia, cognitive issues, and more by making that switch. No kidding.

 

[microbeast]

Everything old is new again. @Systemlord, you have no excuse since you participated in the thread.

If you were injecting straight testosterone then having it encounter and interact with more aromatase in fatty tissue would at least be a theoretical possibility. However, testosterone esters such as testosterone cypionate are essentially inert at the injection sites; they cannot be aromatized. Instead they must be absorbed, and only when they reach the bloodstream do they encounter enzymes that strip off the esters, leaving the biologically active testosterone free to interact with aromatase, SHBG, androgen receptors, etc.​

​

The absorption mechanisms for subcutaneous and intramuscular injected depots are somewhat different. This leads to differing rates of absorption, which in turn are reflected in differing levels of serum testosterone over time. The data suggest that in general IM depots absorb faster than SC depots. This means that serum testosterone with IM goes up faster and higher, but also drops sooner and lower. You get higher peaks and lower troughs, but overall the same amount of testosterone is delivered at the same dose, so that average levels are the same between IM and SC. The differing serum levels are reflected in metabolites such as estradiol. The expectation is that at pre-injection troughs the level of estradiol is higher with SC injections than with IM injections. However, the opposite is expected at peak serum levels.​

...

The clinical trial for Xyosted compared intramuscular to subcutaneous injections. Regarding the production of DHT and estradiol, they conclude "The ratios of T to metabolites were similar, suggesting that the conversion rate of T to its metabolites was similar across groups."​

I agree that IM obviously has a greater blood supply and this should mean faster absorbtion. I also understand the ester must be cleaved to become active. However I don't understand the quicker onset of increased estradiol production in subq vs IM. When I was doing IM I required a fraction of Anastrozole. Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

[Systemlord]

I'll tell you my theory: negative reactions that occur to testosterone injections in "literally minutes" are caused by excipients rather than testosterone.

So it's an inflammatory response?

 

[Cataceous]

Can someone quickly list symptoms of high aromatization and/or estrogen?

For me personally, the only blatantly obvious symptom of high estradiol is the enhancement of emotional responsiveness. This one clearly responds to AI use. It's also possible that higher estradiol drives up my prolactin, leading to other problems. But this is less certain.

Yea all I know is I 100% get much larger spikes in estrogen. I agree it makes sense that IM should be absorbed quicker due to greater blood supply in muscle versus fat but I absolutely get more and faster estrogen production with Subq.

Were you taking several measurements of estradiol over the course of an injection cycle? That's the way to be objective about this. Perceiving the need for more AI use does not seem like a reliable indicator.

 

[Vince]

I use both shallow IM and sub q. Because I do daily injections. It gives me a wide range of area to inject.

For whatever reason, I've never felt anything from estrogen, then again my E2 naturally always runs low. Before TRT and with it. I think it just comes out to how I went through puberty and developed into a man. My testosterone was high and my estrogen was always low so that's where I feel my best.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

So it's an inflammatory response?

With the standard 10-20% benzyl benzoate formulation (benzyl benzoate is metabolized to benzyl alcohol), you have the following variables to contend with: pharmacological activity of benzyl alcohol, toxicity and inflammation caused by benzyl alcohol, and an acute spike of testosterone release.

I don't know what the exact contributions of these different factors are when it comes to producing undesirable side effects, or the contribution of cypionate vs enanthate for that matter. All I know for sure is what I reported, which is that multiple people are feeling alot better (on the same protocol otherwise) after making that switch.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I remain skeptical that incomplete absorption is a real thing, except for injection site leakage. The latter is something that I experience occasionally, and it could be the primary reason for these claims. It's easy to miss if you don't shine a bright light on the area. I think otherwise it's generally accepted that absorption is close to 100%. Where is the testosterone supposed to go if it's never absorbed?

Good question. Maybe when individuals get the inflamed nodules, some testosterone gets destroyed by inflammation or walled off inside the nodule until it is broken down somehow?

 

[madman]

SubQ vs IM (E2)

Anyone get higher e2 from subQ injections? Is it because of estrogen in fat?

www.excelmale.com

 

[TLR]

I’ve tried subq with injections in belly fat, and while I didn’t get increased E2, my T levels dropped by almost half….6 weeks, nothing different other than injection site….it works for a lot of guys, but I just stick to shallow IM in the delts….