Hey Bmac have you ever used finasteride? I'm having the exact same issues as you guys and finasteride completely fixed it but made my hairloss even worse. I'm right back to having no pumps and libido now that I'm off of it. Also you said you're not from the US are you from Canada?
Permanent crash of estrogen?
- Thread starter Amanofgod
- Start date
No, any exogenous estrogen exerts additional negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary, reducing levels of hormones in the cascade, including kisspeptin, GnRH, LH and testosterone.
It certainly will in a functional HPTA. Regardless of the where estrogen currently sits, the HPTA is basically at an equilibrium that factors in that level. Change that level with exogenous estrogen and you upset the equilibrium. A new equilibrium is then established with lower endogenous testosterone and estradiol. The primary complication is that androgens also provide some negative feedback at the hypothalamus. Therefore you may see some increase in serum estradiol, but still at the expense of some testosterone production.
I checked your history and you have very low SHBG. You should test or estimate with the link below your FREE estradiol - it may be normal even when your total estradiol is low. In that case, you should not take exogenous estradiol.
Free E2 estimator
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It said free e2 might be lower. So can i conclude i have low e2 coz i have all the low e2 symptoms ? And what should i do to increase it ?
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The calculator gives that message even for perfectly normal values, so I wouldn't read too much into it. Nonetheless, if you want more estrogenic activity without HPTA suppression then try low doses of clomiphene, aka Clomid. The zuclomiphene component is itself estrogenic, while enclomiphene stimulates testosterone production, which in turn leads to more endogenous estradiol. Keep in mind that while taking clomiphene, estradiol measurements are less meaningful. They cannot reflect zuclomiphene's agonism and enclomiphene's antagonism of the various estrogen receptors.
Do you also have muscle twitching or frequent urination/dehydration?
A lot of high cortisol symptoms are the same as low e2 symptoms so you gotta keep that in mind, you seem really stressed and anxious at the moment so that’s most likely what it is and especially if you say dhea helped you as many times when dhea is low cortisol is high.
Hey @Bmac , I'm wondering if you have any advice for people in a similar boat - suffering long term AI induced low E2 symptoms?
How are you doing today?
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Nocalves
Active Member
It is few years from crashing. Now when I use only test, my e2 climbs somewhere where it seems to be optimal by numbers, but I do not feel otimized. I do not necessarily feel low e2 symptoms, but I have some brainfog, low energy ect… My DHEA, progesteron, Pregnenolone are deeply under ref. range.
So logical answer is to start supplementing with those BUT, but if I use any of those, my e2 start lowering and I start feel e2 symptoms. So another logical move is to use some form of e2, Ok here we go I use e2 valerate and it starts to lowering my progesteron level even I am on progesterone injection.. So I increase progesteron dose and it starts lowering my e2 even I am on the same dose of e2 Valerate…
Definitaly aromasin or any other compound broke my receptors… Seems like e2 and prog compete for the same receptors..
Now I made trial with Ment (trestolone acetate) - I switched from test to Ment, continue with e2 valerate and hcg with the same dose. First day I felt fantastic but after 4th day I knew my e2 was going down (mood and bodyweight decreasing are my new bloodwork after years of low e2) ofcourse I checked it on bloodwork also. As we know Ment has progestogenic activity and it probably lower my e2 again..
Now I am hopeless, I will ever feel at least good again.
I don’t expect anyone can help me, just be positive and don’t lose your mind from low e2, you can always choose some form of e2 as the last option, unless you have the same problem with e2/progesteron receptors..
@Nocalves
Hi, thank you very much for answering.
My issues also started with aromasin and are to a noticeable extent still ongoing. I have not yet managed to get injectable E2. Will do soon.
I'd like to ask you a few questions - maybe we can figure this out together.
1. Blood work shows DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone to be under the ref. range - but do you feel any symptoms of that?
2. Which forms of DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone supplementation have you tried up to this point (pills, injections, creams) and in what doses?
3. You said you use either E2 valerate or E2 enanthate. Do you mind sharing your protocols in detail? So how often you use them, what's the dose, IM or SubQ? (Also, how concentrated are these injectables? 40mg/ml, 5mg/ml etc.?)
Also, can you share your test+hcg protocol? (And which forms and esters of TRT have you tried - injections, creams/gels; propionate/every day pinning...?)
And what was your MENT protocol? I've heard that even 2-3mg a day is a TRT dose. I've thought about trying MENT precisely because it aromatizes into methylestradiol. Can blood tests for E2 even measure this kind of e2?
4. Have you tried nandrolone (either deca or npp)? Maybe it would work if you used some test+nandrolone, then possibly adding low dose e2 and hcg...
5. How are your DHT levels? Have you ever tried taking any (natural) 5ar inhibitors?
And what are your SHBG levels and TT levels?
6. You said that your bodyweight decreases when you have low E2 - how much in kg do you lose approximately?
7. Do you also take any other supplements (such as magnesium)?
Sorry for so many questions. Maybe we can together figure out how to optimize the hormonal environment without having to tinker with too many variables.
Warm regards!
Hi, thank you very much for answering.
My issues also started with aromasin and are to a noticeable extent still ongoing. I have not yet managed to get injectable E2. Will do soon.
I'd like to ask you a few questions - maybe we can figure this out together.
1. Blood work shows DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone to be under the ref. range - but do you feel any symptoms of that?
2. Which forms of DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone supplementation have you tried up to this point (pills, injections, creams) and in what doses?
3. You said you use either E2 valerate or E2 enanthate. Do you mind sharing your protocols in detail? So how often you use them, what's the dose, IM or SubQ? (Also, how concentrated are these injectables? 40mg/ml, 5mg/ml etc.?)
Also, can you share your test+hcg protocol? (And which forms and esters of TRT have you tried - injections, creams/gels; propionate/every day pinning...?)
And what was your MENT protocol? I've heard that even 2-3mg a day is a TRT dose. I've thought about trying MENT precisely because it aromatizes into methylestradiol. Can blood tests for E2 even measure this kind of e2?
4. Have you tried nandrolone (either deca or npp)? Maybe it would work if you used some test+nandrolone, then possibly adding low dose e2 and hcg...
5. How are your DHT levels? Have you ever tried taking any (natural) 5ar inhibitors?
And what are your SHBG levels and TT levels?
6. You said that your bodyweight decreases when you have low E2 - how much in kg do you lose approximately?
7. Do you also take any other supplements (such as magnesium)?
Sorry for so many questions. Maybe we can together figure out how to optimize the hormonal environment without having to tinker with too many variables.
Warm regards!
Nocalves
Active Member
It is OK I will answer point after point.
First thing first excuse my grammar, I am bored to check every word how to write it correctly..
)1. You know it is hard to say because there are very much similarities.. Low level of every hormon can cause low energy, low wellbeing, low sexdrive, brainfog - that were symptoms I had on test only even with OK level of estradiol..
2.
-DHEA-S pills 12,5mg bring my level in the middle of ref. range.
-Pregnenolone 12,5mg oral - can not check it, my lab do not offer that.
-Pregnenolone 10-20mg topical cream 10mg middle, 20mg top of ref. ref range.
3. My trt protocol:
Test cyp. 120mg/w ED aplication, 100iu HCG ED. This bring my test level to 650ng/dl (shbg very low - 10) because HCG lower my e2 I have to use cca 0,6 mg e2 enan. or valerate ED. Both e2 are 20mg/ml in grapeseed oil. Test and e2 IM application.
About Ment, because I make all injectable compound by myself and I foged make mark on vials, I am not 100% sure what dosage I am using now
, but I thing it is 2mg ED. This dose is pushing my e2 down so I have to up my e2 dose, so I do not know yet how much…5. No I did not try this. On test+hcg+e2 I do not feel optimized (still the same sides.. low energy, brainfog, mood ect.) I don’t think nandrolone solve it, does it?
6. When my e2 is optimal my BW is 98-99kg pretty lean (188cm) when I switch test for ment first days I feel excellent pump, mood and libido, that was because of Ment and still e2 in range. Now 6 days after Ment starting my BW is 96,5. I definitaly feel lower glykogen storage and worse pump.
7. No other supp… when I am on test only, even 10mg of zinc lower my e2..
@Nocalves
Thank you for your informative reply!
Okay, new questions are here (when you'll have extra time to answer, haha):
2. So you didn't notice any difference between injections, pills and creams for progesterone in terms of symptoms? They all decrease E2? I ask that because some people seem to better react to certain forms and not others.
3. You tried MENT+E2 in this last experiment? Maybe you don't need E2 with MENT. It could compete with the more potent (due to longer half life) methylestradiol that MENT aromatizes into. That's just a thought, can't be sure.
Have you tried test propionate to test how you feel?
Also, since you're an experimentator - there's a member on this forum that also has long term aromasin damage and he reported that testosterone cream on abdomen (idk if he tried scrotum) raises his e2 the most.
4. There is a possibility that it's not only low E2 that's the issue but also high androgen activity due to high DHT levels (that's why I asked what your DHT levels are). This is especially relevant with low SHBG where there's potentially more free DHT floating around.
Nandrolone converts to less potent DHN instead of DHT, reducing androgen activity. However, it doesn't aromatize so you need to combine it with testosterone (some report increased aromatization when they combine the two). Ofc, it also has progestogenic activity (potentially competing with E2) so it's not perfect for guys like us who don't have enough E2. It is still very much worth experimenting with. I wonder how you would feel on it. You could try a protocol: 100mg test and 100mg nandrolone or something like that. Maybe add a small dose of injectable E2 if it would be necessary.
Or maybe oral E2. Have you tried E2 pills yet?
X. What about your thyroid function? There's much interaction between thyroid and E2 on the level of receptors. Addressing suboptimal thyroid could lead to sensitisation of estrogen receptors.
Insulin resistance also plays a role here. As well as chronic inflammation. They both seem to make estrogen receptors less receptive.
All this also affects aromatase activity. Elevated cortisol inhibits it in many cases.
Anyway, there's more factors at play that you might benefit from looking into.
Thanks again for your answers!
Thank you for your informative reply!
Okay, new questions are here (when you'll have extra time to answer, haha):
2. So you didn't notice any difference between injections, pills and creams for progesterone in terms of symptoms? They all decrease E2? I ask that because some people seem to better react to certain forms and not others.
3. You tried MENT+E2 in this last experiment? Maybe you don't need E2 with MENT. It could compete with the more potent (due to longer half life) methylestradiol that MENT aromatizes into. That's just a thought, can't be sure.
Have you tried test propionate to test how you feel?
Also, since you're an experimentator - there's a member on this forum that also has long term aromasin damage and he reported that testosterone cream on abdomen (idk if he tried scrotum) raises his e2 the most.
4. There is a possibility that it's not only low E2 that's the issue but also high androgen activity due to high DHT levels (that's why I asked what your DHT levels are). This is especially relevant with low SHBG where there's potentially more free DHT floating around.
Nandrolone converts to less potent DHN instead of DHT, reducing androgen activity. However, it doesn't aromatize so you need to combine it with testosterone (some report increased aromatization when they combine the two). Ofc, it also has progestogenic activity (potentially competing with E2) so it's not perfect for guys like us who don't have enough E2. It is still very much worth experimenting with. I wonder how you would feel on it. You could try a protocol: 100mg test and 100mg nandrolone or something like that. Maybe add a small dose of injectable E2 if it would be necessary.
Or maybe oral E2. Have you tried E2 pills yet?
X. What about your thyroid function? There's much interaction between thyroid and E2 on the level of receptors. Addressing suboptimal thyroid could lead to sensitisation of estrogen receptors.
Insulin resistance also plays a role here. As well as chronic inflammation. They both seem to make estrogen receptors less receptive.
All this also affects aromatase activity. Elevated cortisol inhibits it in many cases.
Anyway, there's more factors at play that you might benefit from looking into.
Thanks again for your answers!
How are you doing?
I know someone that crashed with aromasin and for 2 years had low E2 symptoms.
He fixed himself permanently with few tablets of oral E2.
Quite crazy.
Another dude fixed himself with many doses of high doses of E2 cypionate injections.
However AI crash cases vary too much to figure out an easy protocol that would apply to all.
I think your logic is correct though.
What's your "story"?
Took aromasin in 2015 to try and boost my testosterone naturally.
12.5mg/day for 3 weeks.
Made me go flat, depressed, no interest and no pleasure in anything.
Still the same 9 years after.
Gets slightly better when I'm on testosterone but nowhere close to how I was before on nothing.
Any other symptoms besides that?
Have you tried exogenous E2, on TRT or off it?
Or what other things have you tried? Maybe HCG or anything more exotic?
And what do your blood tests say?
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