Hey Bmac have you ever used finasteride? I'm having the exact same issues as you guys and finasteride completely fixed it but made my hairloss even worse. I'm right back to having no pumps and libido now that I'm off of it. Also you said you're not from the US are you from Canada?
Permanent crash of estrogen?
- Thread starter Amanofgod
- Start date
Can you take estradiol valerate (oral) 1 mg if you are not on trt and can avoid hpta suppression ? I have normal test but low e2. Rest all parameters fine
If I am not on trt, can i take estrogen valerate (0.5 mg) as it will put me in tge same range as normal estrogen ? I have naturally low levels of estrogen . Test and other parameters in mid nornal range
No, any exogenous estrogen exerts additional negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary, reducing levels of hormones in the cascade, including kisspeptin, GnRH, LH and testosterone.
It certainly will in a functional HPTA. Regardless of the where estrogen currently sits, the HPTA is basically at an equilibrium that factors in that level. Change that level with exogenous estrogen and you upset the equilibrium. A new equilibrium is then established with lower endogenous testosterone and estradiol. The primary complication is that androgens also provide some negative feedback at the hypothalamus. Therefore you may see some increase in serum estradiol, but still at the expense of some testosterone production.
I checked your history and you have very low SHBG. You should test or estimate with the link below your FREE estradiol - it may be normal even when your total estradiol is low. In that case, you should not take exogenous estradiol.
Free E2 estimator
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It said free e2 might be lower. So can i conclude i have low e2 coz i have all the low e2 symptoms ? And what should i do to increase it ?
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The calculator gives that message even for perfectly normal values, so I wouldn't read too much into it. Nonetheless, if you want more estrogenic activity without HPTA suppression then try low doses of clomiphene, aka Clomid. The zuclomiphene component is itself estrogenic, while enclomiphene stimulates testosterone production, which in turn leads to more endogenous estradiol. Keep in mind that while taking clomiphene, estradiol measurements are less meaningful. They cannot reflect zuclomiphene's agonism and enclomiphene's antagonism of the various estrogen receptors.
Past november, I came off trt(reason - low shbg 9). Was done woth enclomiphene n tamox pct by december. Gave a month to pass by (jan 2023) . Got my labs tested day before y'day. (Feb 5 2023)
LH 4.6 mIU/ml (1.7-8.6)
FSH 1.2 mIU/ml (1.5-12.4)
TT 3.79 ng/ml (2.49-8.36)
Free T 18.95 pg/ml (12-40)
SHBG 39.6 NMol/L
E2 (non sensitive) - 31.4 (sensitive not available in my country)
Progesterone (non sensitive) - 0.071ng/ml
DHEAS - 216.5 Ug/dl (160-449)
Thyroid and all good .
Semen volume still low. Testicular size has increased but not pre trt/steroid level . ( Has been 10 years, abused all kinds of PEDs and high on anti estrogens arimidex, aromasin, letro, dont ask )
I stil have no libido. Have all low e2 symptoms .( Joint pain, dry brittle hair, lethargy, dry itchy scalp, dry eyes,apathy, inability to make eye contact, low self confidence , low self control,depression, viagra doesnt work, ED, stress incontinence, eyesight got hazy, bone loss, gained belly fat, no muscle mass and no pump whatsoever. I feel like m retaining lot of water in my belly as m having a double chin despite being lean and zero love handles)
Should I give it more time to recover? Or
Should I assume i have steroid induced hypogonadism and get back on trt? . I have abused steroids for like a decade and never had a problem unti 2 years back I shifted from megadosing to TRT dosing and got all the above shit going.
A little experiment I did y'day
Since my labs show low normal DHEAs , I assumed a little dhea supplement wouldn't hurt and I heard a lot about it converting to estrogen. So I took precisely 15 mg dhea (Natrol brand) and dude..... Bruhhh..... Almost all symptoms became less pronounced after 4-6 hrs. Almost vanished except Still have ED . But all other sides gone. I am also supplementing 50 mg pregnenolone (life extension) to raise my progesterone and counter estro if it gets outa hand coz of dhea. I assume DHEA is working like charm for me coz of some dhea/cortisol being fucked up inside of me. BTW, any idea why my progesterone is so low? I don't have pregnenolone testing in my country but have mentioned low progesterone levels above .
It's only been day 2 . Should I continue or should i jump back to trt as my SHBG is pretty mid normal ?
Also have some naltrexone in hand . I have heard about it bringing up lh and fsh . Should i try ?
Guys who have gone through pct, any idea how much time did it take for libido/erection to come back?
Right now m getting weak erections, but only morning and nocturnal.( a progress from zero erections) .
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Do you also have muscle twitching or frequent urination/dehydration?
It is not frequent urination. It is stress incontinence (google). Muscle twitching yes but not to a point of inconvenience
Symptoms are unbearable, so a bit restless. But I will surely give it more time. Thanks
@Systemlord any thoughts ?
A lot of high cortisol symptoms are the same as low e2 symptoms so you gotta keep that in mind, you seem really stressed and anxious at the moment so that’s most likely what it is and especially if you say dhea helped you as many times when dhea is low cortisol is high.
Hey @Bmac , I'm wondering if you have any advice for people in a similar boat - suffering long term AI induced low E2 symptoms?
How are you doing today?
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Nocalves
Active Member
It is few years from crashing. Now when I use only test, my e2 climbs somewhere where it seems to be optimal by numbers, but I do not feel otimized. I do not necessarily feel low e2 symptoms, but I have some brainfog, low energy ect… My DHEA, progesteron, Pregnenolone are deeply under ref. range.
So logical answer is to start supplementing with those BUT, but if I use any of those, my e2 start lowering and I start feel e2 symptoms. So another logical move is to use some form of e2, Ok here we go I use e2 valerate and it starts to lowering my progesteron level even I am on progesterone injection.. So I increase progesteron dose and it starts lowering my e2 even I am on the same dose of e2 Valerate…
Definitaly aromasin or any other compound broke my receptors… Seems like e2 and prog compete for the same receptors..
Now I made trial with Ment (trestolone acetate) - I switched from test to Ment, continue with e2 valerate and hcg with the same dose. First day I felt fantastic but after 4th day I knew my e2 was going down (mood and bodyweight decreasing are my new bloodwork after years of low e2) ofcourse I checked it on bloodwork also. As we know Ment has progestogenic activity and it probably lower my e2 again..
Now I am hopeless, I will ever feel at least good again.
I don’t expect anyone can help me, just be positive and don’t lose your mind from low e2, you can always choose some form of e2 as the last option, unless you have the same problem with e2/progesteron receptors..
@Nocalves
Hi, thank you very much for answering.
My issues also started with aromasin and are to a noticeable extent still ongoing. I have not yet managed to get injectable E2. Will do soon.
I'd like to ask you a few questions - maybe we can figure this out together.
1. Blood work shows DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone to be under the ref. range - but do you feel any symptoms of that?
2. Which forms of DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone supplementation have you tried up to this point (pills, injections, creams) and in what doses?
3. You said you use either E2 valerate or E2 enanthate. Do you mind sharing your protocols in detail? So how often you use them, what's the dose, IM or SubQ? (Also, how concentrated are these injectables? 40mg/ml, 5mg/ml etc.?)
Also, can you share your test+hcg protocol? (And which forms and esters of TRT have you tried - injections, creams/gels; propionate/every day pinning...?)
And what was your MENT protocol? I've heard that even 2-3mg a day is a TRT dose. I've thought about trying MENT precisely because it aromatizes into methylestradiol. Can blood tests for E2 even measure this kind of e2?
4. Have you tried nandrolone (either deca or npp)? Maybe it would work if you used some test+nandrolone, then possibly adding low dose e2 and hcg...
5. How are your DHT levels? Have you ever tried taking any (natural) 5ar inhibitors?
And what are your SHBG levels and TT levels?
6. You said that your bodyweight decreases when you have low E2 - how much in kg do you lose approximately?
7. Do you also take any other supplements (such as magnesium)?
Sorry for so many questions. Maybe we can together figure out how to optimize the hormonal environment without having to tinker with too many variables.
Warm regards!
Hi, thank you very much for answering.
My issues also started with aromasin and are to a noticeable extent still ongoing. I have not yet managed to get injectable E2. Will do soon.
I'd like to ask you a few questions - maybe we can figure this out together.
1. Blood work shows DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone to be under the ref. range - but do you feel any symptoms of that?
2. Which forms of DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone supplementation have you tried up to this point (pills, injections, creams) and in what doses?
3. You said you use either E2 valerate or E2 enanthate. Do you mind sharing your protocols in detail? So how often you use them, what's the dose, IM or SubQ? (Also, how concentrated are these injectables? 40mg/ml, 5mg/ml etc.?)
Also, can you share your test+hcg protocol? (And which forms and esters of TRT have you tried - injections, creams/gels; propionate/every day pinning...?)
And what was your MENT protocol? I've heard that even 2-3mg a day is a TRT dose. I've thought about trying MENT precisely because it aromatizes into methylestradiol. Can blood tests for E2 even measure this kind of e2?
4. Have you tried nandrolone (either deca or npp)? Maybe it would work if you used some test+nandrolone, then possibly adding low dose e2 and hcg...
5. How are your DHT levels? Have you ever tried taking any (natural) 5ar inhibitors?
And what are your SHBG levels and TT levels?
6. You said that your bodyweight decreases when you have low E2 - how much in kg do you lose approximately?
7. Do you also take any other supplements (such as magnesium)?
Sorry for so many questions. Maybe we can together figure out how to optimize the hormonal environment without having to tinker with too many variables.
Warm regards!
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