I made long post on using Natesto nose T gel as pre-workout boost. My conclusion was it was not any better than caffeine or creatine (and a helluva of a lot more expensive)
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madman
Super Moderator
I fall into the category of someone who's borderline and curious, with a free testosterone of ~7 ng/dL
Based off what testing method (direct IA, calculated, ED or UF)?
Again if your FT truly is low/borderline low a FT 7 ng/dL would fall in what is known as the grey zone 5-9 ng/dL where some men may experience symptoms of hypogonadism and more importantly it is sitting well under where a healthy young natty male would sit at peak 13-15 ng/dL calculated using the go to linear law-of-mass action Vermeuen (cFTV) or 12 ng/dL when tested using the most accurate. assay the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis.
Where does your TT and SHBG sit?
Bottom line here is you would need to get your FT into a healthy range if your goal is to gain some muscle/increase strength otherwise you are going to continue to struggle due to your dismal FT!
Even if ones diet/training were on point it would still be an uphill battle.
Again if we are speaking on exogenous T when it comes to least suppression of the HPG-axis then nasal T gel (Natesto) takes the cake.
Otherwise you would need to use a SERM (clomid/enclomiphene) if you want to maintain endogenous T and EC would be the go to over CC but even then although some men will do well on SERMs many end up hopping on T eventually!
Forget dabbling with any of those 17α-alkylated oral AAS such as low dose oxandrolone pre-workout (twice-weekly) which can give you a short-term boost in mood/strength and would cause minimal suppression when dosed low and infrequently but you are not going to be deriving the full anabolic potential when it comes to gaining muscle/increasing strength due to the PK and overall blood levels achieved.
Would not even waste my time using low doses of any 17α-alkylated oral AAS a few times a week pre-workout if the goal was to gain muscle/increase strength.
Also keep in mind any c17α-alkylated oral AAS (stanozolol, oxandrolone, methyltestosterone, methandrostenolone, oxymetholone, and fluoxymesterone) when used in therapeutic doses (daily) or abusing for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement/increasing strength will have a strong suppression on the HPG-axis.
You need to understand how oral AAS is dosed (PKs/blood levels achieved) when it comes to gaining muscle.
OXANDROLONE
ENCLOMIPHENE
CLOMIPHENE
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Attachments
If IA stands for immunoassay, that's the type of blood test it was.I fall into the category of someone who's borderline and curious, with a free testosterone of ~7 ng/dL
Based off what testing method (direct IA, calculated, ED or UF)?
Again if your FT truly is low/borderline low a FT 7 ng/dL would fall in what is known as the grey zone 5-9 ng/dL where some men may experience symptoms of hypogonadism and more importantly it is sitting well under where a healthy young natty male would sit at peak 13-15 ng/dL calculated using the go to linear law-of-mass action Vermeuen (cFTV) or 12 ng/dL when tested using the most accurate. assay the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis.
Where does your TT and SHBG sit?
Bottom line here is you would need to get your FT into a healthy range if your goal is to gain some muscle/increase strength otherwise you are going to continue to struggle due to your dismal FT!
Even if ones diet/training were on point it would still be an uphill battle.
Again if we are speaking on exogenous T when it comes to least suppression of the HPG-axis then nasal T gel (Natesto) takes the cake.
Otherwise you would need to use a SERM (clomid/enclomiphene) if you want to maintain endogenous T and EC would be the go to over CC but even then although some men will do well on SERMs many end up hopping on T eventually!
Forget dabbling with any of those 17α-alkylated oral AAS such as low dose oxandrolone pre-workout (twice-weekly) which can give you a short-term boost in mood/strength and would cause minimal suppression when dosed low and infrequently but you are not going to be deriving the full anabolic potential when it comes to gaining muscle/increasing strength due to the PK and overall blood levels achieved.
Would not even waste my time using low doses of any 17α-alkylated oral AAS a few times a week pre-workout if the goal was to gain muscle/increase strength.
Also keep in mind any c17α-alkylated oral AAS (stanozolol, oxandrolone, methyltestosterone, methandrostenolone, oxymetholone, and fluoxymesterone) when used in therapeutic doses (daily) or abusing for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement/increasing strength will have a strong suppression on the HPG-axis.
You need to understand how oral AAS is dosed (PKs/blood levels achieved) when it comes to gaining muscle.
OXANDROLONE
ENCLOMIPHENE
CLOMIPHENE
Improvements in semen parameters in men treated with clomiphene citrate—A retrospective analysis - ExcelMale Forum. TRT, Hormones, Peptides, Men’s Health
Improvements in semen parameters in men treated with clomiphene citrate—A retrospective analysis Devang Sharma | Jacqueline Zillioux | Iyad Khourdaji | Katy Reines | Karen Wheeler | Raymond Costabile | Parviz Kavoussi | Ryan Smith Abstract Clomiphene citrate (CC) is commonly used off‐label...
Enclomiphene citrate: A treatment that maintains fertility in men with secondary hypogonadism - ExcelMale Forum. TRT, Hormones, Peptides, Men’s Health
ABSTRACT Introduction: Hypogonadism is an important issue among the male population. Treatments such as exogenous testosterone have become very popular. One of the adverse effects of testosterone is its suppression of fertility. This has led to the use of alternative therapies such as selective...
Treating Low Testosterone with Clomid, hCG and Aromatase Inhibitors: A Review of the Data - ExcelMale Forum. TRT, Hormones, Peptides, Men’s Health
Abstract Testosterone deficiency is defined as a total testosterone level <300 ng/dL confirmed on two early morning lab draws. Testosterone therapy has historically been offered to men with symptomatic testosterone deficiency in the form of injections, gels, or pellets. However, these...
...A paradoxical decline in semen parameters in men treated with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) - ExcelMale Forum. TRT, Hormones, Peptides, Men’s Health
A paradoxical decline in semen parameters in men treated with clomiphene citrate Tejas Gundewar | Manish Kuchakulla | Ranjith Ramasamy Abstract Clomiphene, a selective estrogen receptor modulator, has been utilized in managing male sub-fertility since 1967. Numerous controlled and...
NATESTO
FDA Approved Natesto Nasal Gel to Treat Men with Low Testosterone - ExcelMale Forum. TRT, Hormones, Peptides, Men’s Health
Trimel Pharmaceuticals Corporation announced today (May 28.2014) that the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved Natesto (testosterone), formerly CompleoTRT, the first and only testosterone nasal gel for replacement therapy in adult males for conditions associated with a...
Natesto Effects on Testosterone, LH, FSH and Semen Parameters - ExcelMale - #1 TRT & Testosterone Forum | Expert-Moderated Men's Health Community
Prospective case study: PHASE 4 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/study/NCT03203681
Home PRESS RELEASE Acerus Provides Business Update on NATESTO® - ExcelMale - #1 TRT & Testosterone Forum | Expert-Moderated Men's Health Community
Acerus Provides Business Update on NATESTO® PART 1: “My-T Study: Symptom-based titration decisions when using testosterone nasal gel, NATESTO [®] ” MY-T study: Symptom-based titration decisions when using testosterone nasal gel, Natesto® | Canadian Urological...
...Efficacy of Nasal Testosterone Gel (Natesto® ) Stratified by Baseline Endogenous Testosterone Levels - ExcelMale - #1 TRT & Testosterone Forum | Expert-Moderated Men's Health Community
Objective: Pharmacokinetic and efficacy data from a Phase 3 Testosterone Nasal Gel (TNG) study were stratified based on testosterone deficient patients’ baseline endogenous testosterone. Total testosterone (TT), gonadal hormones (LH and FSH), erectile function, mood and lean body mass for each...
But even if it was accurate and I really am low in free testosterone, I'm starting to think that my expectations for treatment are too high. I want some kind of magical technology that causes no disruption to my natural hormones and only backfills my testosterone stores, which I'm starting realizing doesn't yet exist. I think Natesto and Maximus' native oral T come the closest, but maybe I'll hold off for a little longer and see what kind of developments occur in this area. Thanks for the suggestions and guidance.
madman
Super Moderator
Your FT the most critical fraction was not tested using an accurate assay.
No one should be using/relying on the direct IA (CLIA/RIA immunoassay).
You would need to have your FT tested using the most accurate assay the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis in order to know where it truly sits especially in cases of altered SHBG.
Otherwise you would need to use/rely the next best method which would be the go to calculated linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen (cFTV) which will give a good approximation.
Were did your TT sit when tested at peak in a fasting state and where does your SHBG sit?
Did you test LH/FSH?
That's good to know.
TT was 650 and SHBG was 40. No LH/FSH.
It was one of those cheap combo labs meant to give men an idea of where their levels are, but it sounds like it generally fails at that goal in terms of accuracy. Before I moved forward, I was already planning to get a higher quality full panel from Discounted Labs or somewhere similar.
madman
Super Moderator
This changes the picture big time!
You are hitting a robust peak TT 650 ng/dL and although your SHBG 40 nmol/L is. highish it is not very high so your FT would be higher than 7 ng/dL.
If we take your robust TT 650 ng/dL, highish SHBG 40 nmol/L and Albumin 4.3 g/dL (default) and calculate your FT using the linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen (cFTV) your FT 12.8 ng/dL would be sitting just under where a healthy young natty male cFTV 13-15 ng/dL and far from low.
Just need to keep in mind that cFTV tends to slightly overestimate so your FT may be a little lower and just on the cusp of the grey zone.
Always critical to use the most accurate assays especially when testing FT and any doctor in the know would stress this let alone test LH/FSH.
That certainly is good news, thanks. It probably explains why I'm not experiencing any major symptoms beyond less capacity for recovery from exercise, and maybe that's only a reality of aging that I'll have to accept.
I'm pretty upset with this crappy blood test. It has the potential to really lead people astray.
madman
Super Moderator
Unfortunately many are still using/relying on the known to be inaccurate direct IA especially many caught up on those kiddie forums, men being treated by those run of the mill T-clinics and even some well respected providers that many use on here!
So many are still clueless when it comes to testing the most critical fraction.
Have been hammering this home on the forum since I set foot on here and it is almost a decade later yet there is still so much misinformation being spewed even by some of those so called vets LMFAO!
That is a sensible approach. If I were in your shoes I would have done the same and avoided TRT (my TT unfortunately was in the 200s).
Shitty recovery is part of getting older. Unless you jack your T level up beyond physiological levels, you would not see much of a difference in that department.
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