Permanent crash of estrogen?

[Gman86]

I found my libido to be great while on this protocol. Libido that sometimes would affect my ability to work. I see I forgot to mention I been taking 50mg oral pregnenolone at night for the past year. Since that progesterone test was the standard one I understand that the accuracy of it is questionable. I’m following the recent increase in interest of progesterone on this forum as my Pre trt levels averaged 4.3 nmol/l or 1.2 ng/dl which then crashed to near 0 on trt. Again that was measured with the standard test so how much of it being measured was not actually progesterone I’m not sure. But for me direct progesterone use with creams or oral seems to causes feminizing sides for me. My normally dark facial hair starts to get lighter in colour with more red hairs as well as my arm hair. To see how progesterone would potential affect Gyno symptoms I applied roughly 10mg prog cream to my right nipple which caused pronounced pain and swelling. This was done a year before my experiment with estradiol valerate. I don’t want to discourage anyone from trying progesterone as I may be completely wrong that it caused feminizing sides just wished there was more research in men with this hormone.

Wow great info. Love the experimenting that ur doing. Dr Chrisler felt the same way about progesterone. He felt that using progesterone could lead to feminizing effects, but raising prog through pregnenolone didn’t cause these feminizing effects. He said he had literally every TRT pt at his practice on 50-100mg of Pregnenolone cream. He said he didn’t like oral Pregnenolone. He only used topical, unless they ended up having anxiety, and then he would use oral, but it was extremely rare that he did that he said.

What other feminizing effects from the progesterone did u experience, other than the lightening of ur hair and pain/ swelling when applying it to ur nipple?

what issues does the direct progesterone test have? I always thought it measured progesterone levels pretty accurately. My levels have always correlated with the doses I’ve used of progesterone, and it always comes back around the same level when on HRT and not supplementing anything that would raise progesterone

So the oral preg raised ur prog level to 0.8ng/dl? Do u mind linking the pregnenolone supplement that u take?

 

[Gman86]

@Bmac also what benefits have u noticed from taking the 50mg of preg?

any negatives to taking it that u’ve noticed?

why are u taking it at night? Have u ever tried taking it in the am?

 

[Bmac]

@Bmac also what benefits have u noticed from taking the 50mg of preg?

any negatives to taking it that u’ve noticed?

why are u taking it at night? Have u ever tried taking it in the am?

My decision to try these experiments is ultimately to see how these hormones effect me and for what it’s worth provide anecdotal information to this forum. To add I’ve used progesterone in 50mg oral capsules, which I was prescribed by my first trt clinic roughly 5 years ago. They Where used for 3 months. As well as creams in various dosages that I used on different occasions over the years. The most significant feminizing effect from progesterone was the gyno flare up. The flare up from the cream was the most Obvious swelling of the gland I’ve experienced with any hormone. I’ve never really had good erections while taking prog. I felt that my penis was smaller in its flaccid state but could possibly be placebo. Regarding testing for progesterone it is my understanding that testing not using LC-MS/MS there’s a lot of cross reactivity especially when testing for progesterone. So my pre trt test of progesterone might not of been accurately representing my true natural progesterone levels. So 1.2 ng/dl might not be the level of progesterone that I should be aiming for. The 0.8 ng/dl was the highest I ever had when using pregnenolone might of been a one off test. I usually see 0.5 ng/dl. The preg is from a compounding pharmacy. For meet its calming and relaxing which why I’m using it before bed. Any more than 50mg for me did cause the opposite effect and was stimulating but not in a good way.

 

[Gman86]

My decision to try these experiments is ultimately to see how these hormones effect me and for what it’s worth provide anecdotal information to this forum. To add I’ve used progesterone in 50mg oral capsules, which I was prescribed by my first trt clinic roughly 5 years ago. They Where used for 3 months. As well as creams in various dosages that I used on different occasions over the years. The most significant feminizing effect from progesterone was the gyno flare up. The flare up from the cream was the most Obvious swelling of the gland I’ve experienced with any hormone. I’ve never really had good erections while taking prog. I felt that my penis was smaller in its flaccid state but could possibly be placebo. Regarding testing for progesterone it is my understanding that testing not using LC-MS/MS there’s a lot of cross reactivity especially when testing for progesterone. So my pre trt test of progesterone might not of been accurately representing my true natural progesterone levels. So 1.2 ng/dl might not be the level of progesterone that I should be aiming for. The 0.8 ng/dl was the highest I ever had when using pregnenolone might of been a one off test. I usually see 0.5 ng/dl. The preg is from a compounding pharmacy. For meet its calming and relaxing which why I’m using it before bed. Any more than 50mg for me did cause the opposite effect and was stimulating but not in a good way.

Thanks for the detailed response and answering all my questions. I’m the exact same way. I experiment to find what works best for me, to try things so I don’t always have to wonder how I would feel on them, and a big reason why I experiment so much is to be able to share my experiences and hopefully help others and have a lot to contribute to this forum and any other HRT groups I’m a part of.

what can the non sens prog test cross react with?

was there any positives that came along with prog supplementation for u, or all negatives?

have u ever tried topical preg?

any negatives that u’ve noticed from taking the 50mg of oral preg?

 

[Bmac]

Thanks for the detailed response and answering all my questions. I’m the exact same way. I experiment to find what works best for me, to try things so I don’t always have to wonder how I would feel on them, and a big reason why I experiment so much is to be able to share my experiences and hopefully help others and have a lot to contribute to this forum and any other HRT groups I’m a part of.

what can the non sens prog test cross react with?

was there any positives that came along with prog supplementation for u, or all negatives?

have u ever tried topical preg?

any negatives that u’ve noticed from taking the 50mg of oral preg?

From my understanding the standard immunoassay test cross reacts with the many similar metabolites to progesterone especially with oral administration. Pharmacokinetics of progesterone - Wikipedia good article on the subject. There where positives namely amazing sleep and a calming effect on my mood. Can’t say it help or hurt my body composition. I’m always trying to read about progesterones metabolic effects on the body. At least from what I’ve read it’s detrimental to body comp primarily it’s effect on glucose metabolism. I have not tried preg cream but may consider it. It’s been a mostly positive experience. I get similar benefits that I got from prog but so far no perceivable feminizing effects.

 

[Gman86]

From my understanding the standard immunoassay test cross reacts with the many similar metabolites to progesterone especially with oral administration. Pharmacokinetics of progesterone - Wikipedia good article on the subject. There where positives namely amazing sleep and a calming effect on my mood. Can’t say it help or hurt my body composition. I’m always trying to read about progesterones metabolic effects on the body. At least from what I’ve read it’s detrimental to body comp primarily it’s effect on glucose metabolism. I have not tried preg cream but may consider it. It’s been a mostly positive experience. I get similar benefits that I got from prog but so far no perceivable feminizing effects.

Ya I’ve also been trying to figure out progesterone’s exact effects on body composition and mainly on whether it effects muscle growth in a negative or positive way. Just doesn’t seem like there’s many studies on the subject tho. Seems like there’s only two main studies to reference. One basically shows that it has positive effects, and the other shows that it has negative effects. Really confusing.

If exogenous progesterone supplementation ended up being proven to have a negative effect on muscle growth, do u think it would be safe to say that the progesterone increase from using exogenous pregnenolone would also have a negative effect?

 

[Bmac]

I think if you keep progesterone in the normal physiological range you would be ok. I’m just trying to find what the accurate physiological range is in young non trt using men with the test being done by lc-ms/ms. I actually think I found a study that tested just this.

Reference intervals of nine steroid hormones over the life-span analyzed by LC-MS/MS: Effect of age, gender, puberty, and oral contraceptives​

 

[Gman86]

I think if you keep progesterone in the normal physiological range you would be ok. I’m just trying to find what the accurate physiological range is in young non trt using men with the test being done by lc-ms/ms. I actually think I found a study that tested just this.

Reference intervals of nine steroid hormones over the life-span analyzed by LC-MS/MS: Effect of age, gender, puberty, and oral contraceptives​

Ur positive about this whole cross reactivity stuff with the non sens prog test? I’m still not understanding what the test could cross react with. Ur saying that the non sens test may cross react with other progesterone molecules?

 

[Gman86]

In the video below Dave Lee talks about liking prog levels between (0.3-1.3ng/ml). Which is unfortunately a pretty broad range

The guy in this video says he likes to see men’s progesterone levels around 1.2ng/ml
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TRC8vGXyAe

Problem is I don’t think either are referring to the sensitive progesterone test

 

[swolg8r]

So I just had bloodwork done and these are my results a year after dropping everything.
edit: wtf is going on
edit2: surprised I don't have mad acne from those DHT levels lol

 

[RickB]

My e2 went from 80 to 10 in a span of 2 months and I can barely tell a difference. I pretty much feel the same... but it’s kind of scary to read some of these posts.

I went from 46 to <5 in 4 days by taking 25 mg of aromasin. I felt no difference. In fact the day before the second blood test I woke up with wood for the first time in weeks.

The only discernable low estrogen symptoms I've ever had in my life are that my elbows will sometimes hurt when taking arimidex, at which point I know to cut back or stop taking it for a while.

 

[glob]

I’m still having low e2 symptoms 5 weeks off ai

I’m really nervous It’s gonna be perment?

I lost my emotions and dopamine appetite energy

Hey men, I’ve the same issue now, low e2 symptoms after stop ai, I’m very scared. You’re right now? Any update to your situation? Thanks for the reply mate

 

[glob]

I’m still having low e2 symptoms 5 weeks off ai

I’m really nervous It’s gonna be perment?

I lost my emotions and dopamine appetite energy

Hey men, how are you now? Any update to your situation??

 

[DonaldPump2020]

I did almist 10 weeks of e3.5d 100mg test e.
Then i switched to 60mg MWF and all hell broke loose after 1.5 weeks on that protocol with low t/e2 symptoms.
Then I did 6 weeks of 130mg e5d still felt bad.

No i just finished 5 weeks on 180mg e7d and my e2 is finally up again

 

[glob]

I did almist 10 weeks of e3.5d 100mg test e.
Then i switched to 60mg MWF and all hell broke loose after 1.5 weeks on that protocol with low t/e2 symptoms.
Then I did 6 weeks of 130mg e5d still felt bad.

No i just finished 5 weeks on 180mg e7d and my e2 is finally up again

With eod or ed injection protocol my e2 goes too low, even with high test dose

 

[DonaldPump2020]

Is that because lf low aromatase or does your shbg clumb, free t and therefore e2 lowers? For you i mean

 

[glob]

Is that because lf low aromatase or does your shbg clumb, free t and therefore e2 lowers? For you i mean

Probably, idk, but with infrequent inj this doesn’t happen

 

[DonaldPump2020]

Do you know whats your SHBG is and how often do you inject? Im doing e7d but i fear it ma be too unstable

 

[Gman86]

With eod or ed injection protocol my e2 goes too low, even with high test dose

What’s was ur E2 on EOD compared to ED? I assume it was lower on ED, jc how much lower

 

[Zibernet]

Back in 2015 I used Pfizer Aromasin in the hope of boosting my natural testosterone. Which it worked really well for, I reached 1200ng/dl by just taking 25mg aromasin every 3 days.

I took it for about a month before the low e2 symptoms became unbearable:
- crackly joints
- flat muscles
- no strength and 0 pump in the gym
- depressed mood
- foreharm hairloss
- no libido.

Fast forward one year I didn't learn from my mistake, I take aromasin again.
Same symptoms that make me stop.

Fast forward one year after discontinuing, I feel depressed, my muscles are flat, I cannot workout anymore, I have no libido.

I go for a blood test: e2 is <10, practically undetectable, and test is 600ng/dl.

Fast forward 3 years in 2020, another blood test: e2 still undetectable.

I decide to try transdermal testosterone to solve this issue: it does a great job at elevating e2, I feel a lot better, but it's affecting my sleep really bad, and I don't like that constant tiredness.

I'm now in a situation where I have found a solution to my low e2, but the solution makes me sleep-deprived.

Anyone has been confronted to the same issue and found a durable solution?