Lowering Test Cyp Dosage - Can't Sleep And Irritated

[Stpfan]

I've been taking roughly around 130-135mg of Test Cyp a week and feeling great. Sleeping well etc. The issue is... I'm tired of donating blood literally 6 pints a year. I'm tired of the recovery time... depleted minerals. EVERYTHING! Around every 65 days or so when it's time to donate blood my Hematocrit and Hemoglobin are HIGH. Roughly around 18.1 and 53% RBC around 6.18 million. After donating 1 unit of blood my numbers go to 17.1 51.1% and RBC 5.92 million. Isn't that still too high?? What are your thoughts?

After gathering some info at this site and estimating probable Total Test Free Test after a Test Cyp reduction in dosing... I still believe I'd be at upper normal Trough levels. I'm taking roughly 85mg-88mg a week for the last 2 weeks and I feel AWFUL. Irriated. Can't sleep more than 4 hours without waking up. I understand your body has to adjust to a new dosage... but this is insane! I mean... could my body be telling me... I NEED MORE TEST CYP! Why are you doing this?

Again... I've tried this protocol before.... and it didn't help my lifestyle as in... getting things DONE! Sure, it helps reduce the blood thickness.... to some degree. But your overall well-being sucks! I literally don't want to donate blood anymore. I can't stand donating! What else can you do?

Not to mention... I've had major back tightness in my mid back, upper shoulders lately. It's been going on for the last 8 months. Doctors blame it on simple aging. I'm turning 47 soon... The upper back tightness is so extreme it's causing me headaches now. I have to take Ibuprofen to reduce the inflammation. Mind you.... all the Test Cyp I take is USA prescription grade... with that cottonseed carrier oil. Sometimes I wonder if that's causing it? I used to take that offshore Test Cyp with that MCT carrier oil? I don't recall having inflammation this high? I did have an MRI done and a neurosurgeon said there's nothing to be concerned about. Typical aging at 46 years of age.

Again, I was just trying to cut down on blood donations... like maybe once a year? Or how about ZERO A YEAR? Yeah.... that's the idea. Low Test makes you batty. Good day gentlemen.

 

[Cataceous]

You were thoroughly acclimated to taking roughly twice as much testosterone as you would make naturally at your best. It's no surprise that the withdrawal is taking time. For encouragement, read what @Simbarn says about weaning off of higher doses:

...
I had tried this before, but given the "low t' effect, I resumed the higher doses thinking, my dose was too low. This time I persisted and gave it more time for my body to adjust.
How important this was!
...

 

[Seagal]

I've been taking roughly around 130-135mg of Test Cyp a week and feeling great. Sleeping well etc. The issue is... I'm tired of donating blood literally 6 pints a year. I'm tired of the recovery time... depleted minerals. EVERYTHING! Around every 65 days or so when it's time to donate blood my Hematocrit and Hemoglobin are HIGH. Roughly around 18.1 and 53% RBC around 6.18 million. After donating 1 unit of blood my numbers go to 17.1 51.1% and RBC 5.92 million. Isn't that still too high?? What are your thoughts?

After gathering some info at this site and estimating probable Total Test Free Test after a Test Cyp reduction in dosing... I still believe I'd be at upper normal Trough levels. I'm taking roughly 85mg-88mg a week for the last 2 weeks and I feel AWFUL. Irriated. Can't sleep more than 4 hours without waking up. I understand your body has to adjust to a new dosage... but this is insane! I mean... could my body be telling me... I NEED MORE TEST CYP! Why are you doing this?

Again... I've tried this protocol before.... and it didn't help my lifestyle as in... getting things DONE! Sure, it helps reduce the blood thickness.... to some degree. But your overall well-being sucks! I literally don't want to donate blood anymore. I can't stand donating! What else can you do?

Not to mention... I've had major back tightness in my mid back, upper shoulders lately. It's been going on for the last 8 months. Doctors blame it on simple aging. I'm turning 47 soon... The upper back tightness is so extreme it's causing me headaches now. I have to take Ibuprofen to reduce the inflammation. Mind you.... all the Test Cyp I take is USA prescription grade... with that cottonseed carrier oil. Sometimes I wonder if that's causing it? I used to take that offshore Test Cyp with that MCT carrier oil? I don't recall having inflammation this high? I did have an MRI done and a neurosurgeon said there's nothing to be concerned about. Typical aging at 46 years of age.

Again, I was just trying to cut down on blood donations... like maybe once a year? Or how about ZERO A YEAR? Yeah.... that's the idea. Low Test makes you batty. Good day gentlemen.

I think we don't have data/studies that provide evidence for either harm or no harm related to elevated or high hematocrit from TRT.
I had very strong neck/shoulder muscle tension and ache before TRT and it has gotten better on TRT. Also hypothyroidism can cause such symptoms.
You could get an examination from a physiotherapist. Years spent at the office desk... bad ergonomic working posture. Typical gym exercises are mostly not enough to fix imbalances, mobility, posture.

 

[Systemlord]

After donating 1 unit of blood my numbers go to 17.1 51.1% and RBC 5.92 million. Isn't that still too high??

No, it’s not.

I literally don't want to donate blood anymore. I can't stand donating! What else can you do?

Jatenzo is an oral testosterone option that doesn’t affect red blood cells as much as injections. Only a very small percentage of men experience high hematocrit and high hemoglobin on the new oral testosterone.

 

[MarcoFL]

I've been taking roughly around 130-135mg of Test Cyp a week and feeling great. Sleeping well etc. The issue is... I'm tired of donating blood literally 6 pints a year. I'm tired of the recovery time... depleted minerals. EVERYTHING! Around every 65 days or so when it's time to donate blood my Hematocrit and Hemoglobin are HIGH. Roughly around 18.1 and 53% RBC around 6.18 million. After donating 1 unit of blood my numbers go to 17.1 51.1% and RBC 5.92 million. Isn't that still too high?? What are your thoughts?

After gathering some info at this site and estimating probable Total Test Free Test after a Test Cyp reduction in dosing... I still believe I'd be at upper normal Trough levels. I'm taking roughly 85mg-88mg a week for the last 2 weeks and I feel AWFUL. Irriated. Can't sleep more than 4 hours without waking up. I understand your body has to adjust to a new dosage... but this is insane! I mean... could my body be telling me... I NEED MORE TEST CYP! Why are you doing this?

Again... I've tried this protocol before.... and it didn't help my lifestyle as in... getting things DONE! Sure, it helps reduce the blood thickness.... to some degree. But your overall well-being sucks! I literally don't want to donate blood anymore. I can't stand donating! What else can you do?

Not to mention... I've had major back tightness in my mid back, upper shoulders lately. It's been going on for the last 8 months. Doctors blame it on simple aging. I'm turning 47 soon... The upper back tightness is so extreme it's causing me headaches now. I have to take Ibuprofen to reduce the inflammation. Mind you.... all the Test Cyp I take is USA prescription grade... with that cottonseed carrier oil. Sometimes I wonder if that's causing it? I used to take that offshore Test Cyp with that MCT carrier oil? I don't recall having inflammation this high? I did have an MRI done and a neurosurgeon said there's nothing to be concerned about. Typical aging at 46 years of age.

Again, I was just trying to cut down on blood donations... like maybe once a year? Or how about ZERO A YEAR? Yeah.... that's the idea. Low Test makes you batty. Good day gentlemen.

do you stay well hydrated? I drink 6 liters of water per day and it keeps my hematocrit around 42. A friend only drinks about 1.5 liters and he cannot figure out why he has high hematocrit.....

 

[Seagal]

 

[Systemlord]

I think have identified what’s causing my issues and whenever I’m having these issues, my hemoglobin is out of range. I get symptoms of excess iron and out of range hemoglobin is always the common denominator.

As of this moment, my ferritin levels are below 50 and my hemoglobin is 18.1 and I still have the symptoms. I feel remarkably better with lower ferritin. As my ferritin levels drop the symptoms decline as does the hemoglobin.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it could be the iron and ferritin and not the hemoglobin?

 

[granger]

No, it’s not.

Jatenzo is an oral testosterone option that doesn’t affect red blood cells as much as injections. Only a very small percentage of men experience high hematocrit and high hemoglobin on the new oral testosterone.

do we KNOW this though? i mean one would expect it to be less than injections but "very small" is likely an artifact of the company only following the guys for 3-4 months as it can take more time to start increasing.

also what are your symptoms of high iron? my ferretin sits around 400-450 (normal is like 30-75 iirc).

 

[Systemlord]

do we KNOW this though?

Yes, we do, through clinical trials. Those ferritin levels will definitely decrease your lifespan, typically if ferritin is 500 or higher people tend to die in their 50s and 60s.

Too much iron in the body is toxic, ideally you want ferritin under 100.

 

[granger]

Yes, we do, through clinical trials.

how long were the studies done though? 3 months?

 

[Systemlord]

how long were the studies done though? 3 months?

It’s well known that topical treatments don’t affect hematocrit nearly as much as injectable testosterone, this is a well-known fact. Oral testosterone isn’t any different due to the PK profiles being identical to topical treatments.

 

[granger]

relatively less may not be "small".. interesting i thought guys had to take pills multiple times a day ie not the same PK profile at all.. and also sorta makes the super long ester and 'delayed' release that magically bypasses the liver but somehow absorbed fast and doesnt last long and HUGE doses, as the test is going somewhere. doesnt make much sense IMO, but will be 5-10 years before can sort that out.

back to the original point was the clinical studies longer than 3 months that studied it?

should ask your pharmacist if rates of side effect re clots or hemmacrit is different in topical or oral.. i believe they have more detailed info on the rates in post marketing data although the new oral is a bit different as hasnt been around for years and years.

As you said topical T is suppost to cause less side effects yet recently it was linked to increase in heart attacks and they have to include it on the label now.. (not sure if they have that for injections?). maybe easier for them to suss out as dosing is more or less the same vs 65-200+mg/week..

anyway, If studied only for 3 months its effect on hematocrit i think its fair to say that isnt long enough to KNOW has a small/little/nil effect ESP if was studied on guys actually hypogonadal as dont think % increase tells us much and prob would take those people alot longer to get it above range or even top of range.

 

[1cc]

High Hematocrit and Hemoglobin are to be expected under TRT and are not an issue as long as PLATELETS do not go up. People who live at high altitudes have naturally high HCT and HGB and this is considered normal. Make sure you are drinking sufficient water and also ensure that you do not become low in Ferritin from all the blood donations, as Ferritin within the normal range is important. Blood donations are not necessary under these circumstances, but choosing to do so once or twice a year for benevolent reasons should be fine, while ensuring Ferritin does not go low. For more information check out some videos on Youtube by Dr. Keith Nichols, the channels "TRT and Hormone Optimization" and Jay Campbell.

 

[Systemlord]

you said topical T is suppost to cause less side effects yet recently it was linked to increase in heart attacks and they have to include it on the label now..

The newest Traverse trial is clear, the highest quality study using topical T, no increased risk of heart attacks. The Traverse trial lasted five years. You’re not using this forum to your advantage, you’re being highly selective about what you read.

You’re asking a lot of questions that are already available right here on ExcelMale.

 

[granger]

The newest Traverse trial is clear, the highest quality study using topical T, no increased risk of heart attacks. The Traverse trial lasted five years. You’re not using this forum to your advantage, you’re being highly selective about what you read.

You’re asking a lot of questions that are already available right here on ExcelMale.

also remember this study was how long? less than 2 years lol.. do you think thats long enough? what % of men have heart attacks within first 2 years is likely much much lower than after 5.. ie VERY VERY VERY far from definitive. you need to be more selective about what you believe post marketing data over years and years says otherwise.

 

[Systemlord]

also remember this study was how long? less than 2 years lol.. do you think thats long enough? what % of men have heart attacks within first 2 years is likely much much lower than after 5.. ie VERY VERY VERY far from definitive. you need to be more selective about what you believe post marketing data over years and years says otherwise.

If you have a study that shows causality, Tropical T, causing heart attacks, let’s see it and if you don’t have it, let’s put this to bed, because we can go on and on and on and on and on and not get anywhere.

I don’t see how a delivery method would have a completely different outcome from injectable testosterone. There have been multiple placebo controlled trials that show the same outcome.

The Traverse trial, mandated by the FDA was the highest quality study to date of men on TRT. That carries more weight than any other study before it.

 

[granger]

so how long was the study of oral T and increase in hematocrit? was it 3 months?

im not selective at all.. SOME people are tho, and ONLY believe the GREAT things they hear about what they do lol... as i say, balance in all things..

who says its its the best? again, may be a good quality study HOWEVER it was only 2 years.. I didnt read it all however how many total heart CVA in each group? this study just shows that you prob wont have a heart attack more than anyone else in first 2 years.. i mean we all know it take longer than 2 years as takes a year just to build the dose up for the most part. so they could of started at 10mg a day and titrated up to get the 500 for 6-9 months.. so really only at that dose for a short time.. anyway im not saying risk was likely overstated and benefits understated in previous decades, but its not 0.. anyway, yes smarter than people than us cant agree so we arent going to solve the worlds problems..

I guess i just wanted to shed some light on the fact we have to be careful about saying next to 0 risk when in reality it prob isnt. of course SOO many factors.. how much you convert to DHT. lifestyle, how long you had been hypogonadal and perhaps obese, and most importantly guys who think 200mg/week and at 1200ng is just as safe as 90mg/week and @ 550ng.. i mean obv there is levels, from body transforming steroid "cruise" levels, to minor change levels, these things aren't equal, and its likely very much correlated how easy and fast you grow big muscles to increase risk.. and of course shed some light on when new oral form that somehow by magic makes huge amounts of testosterone disappear but isnt processed by liver, aswell as if by magic doesnt increase Hematocrit, as its very likely this is just because of the short time it has been studied.. I mean traditional wisdom says larger the dose it takes the MORE its harming yoru liver, and esp true for oral forms of ALL steroids.. so just have skeptical hippo eyes when these new and improved forms come out that defy everything we know(like every new pesticide that is 100% risk free, EVENTUALLY we find out its not, as poison is poison, and magically this always happens after patent runs out for a couple years lol). like buddy who is trying to say oral is MORE bioavailable than buccal (but also selling some mix of enclomiphene and pregnenolone) lol, this is not true, and when presented with the studies (conventional wisdom) that prove it as much its ignored..

I have been around pharma folks and know how they are skeezy guys and i have been around guys who sell dreams of gold mines to people and its all smoke and mirrors done legally, just not 100% ethically. So unfortunately for me im pretty skeptical.

 

[Big_Alan]

Here is another video explaining that even mid-high 50s hematocrit is no concern, if caused by secondary erythrocytosis. Meaning, if TRT (or high altitude, etc) is causing high Hematocrit and not some associated platelet disfunction, there is ZERO evidence to date that you are at higher risk of a cardiovascular event. The studies all show no higher risk than sub-50 Hematocrit. Doctors and some hemotologist say to dump blood based on polycythemia evidence, and they extrapolate that to secondary erythrocytosis because it is the "standard of care" defense for liability.

 

[granger]

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.STR.9.4.369#:~:text=High%20hematocrit%20values%20are%20associated,brain%20than%20for%20cartical%20infarctions.

platelets are very transient remember.... perhaps part of why folks get heart attacks and stroke after covid or other sickness when have elevated risk factors.

Hematocrit and the incidence of stroke: a prospective, population-based cohort study - PMC

Whether higher hematocrit levels could increase the incidence of stroke has always been full of controversy. This study aimed to explore the association between hematocrit and the incidence of stroke in the Chinese population. The Kailuan study is a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Testosterone Therapy and Venous Thromboembolism Risk in Men With and Without Hypogonadism

This case-crossover study assesses whether testosterone therapy is associated with short-term risk of venous thromboembolism in men with and without hypogonadism.

jamanetwork.com

Testosterone treatment and risk of venous thromboembolism: population based case-control study

Objective To determine the risk of venous thromboembolism associated with use of testosterone treatment in men, focusing particularly on the timing of the risk. Design Population based case-control study Setting 370 general practices in UK primary care with linked hospital discharge...

www.bmj.com

"The data suggest that an elevated haematocrit is an independent risk factor for stroke and that it interacts synergistically with elevated blood pressure"

Haematocrit, hypertension and risk of stroke - PubMed

The data suggest that an elevated haematocrit is an independent risk factor for stroke and that it interacts synergistically with elevated blood pressure.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

again, you REALLY gotta remember these very PRO trt folks disregard anything negative and go all in on a study or 2 thats says something they like to hear and then feel its ok to say "no evidence to date"? naa, HEAPS of evidence to contrary, so saying NO evidence is very very dishonest.

what about sleep apnea? it causing increase hematocrit no longer an issue too?

 

[Systemlord]

what about sleep apnea? it causing increase hematocrit no longer an issue too?

It’s the sleep apnea or disease process that causes the harm, the high hematocrit is in response to the bodies lack of oxygen. High hematocrit is innocent in this case, in other words, the high hematocrit isn’t the causal factor in causing harm.

Sleep apnea causes high hematocrit, hypoxia and you want to blame the high hematocrit?