Help me make up my mind about a change in protocol

[Gianluca]

Hi guys,

After trying subQ injection for my 3rd time with no success, I think I'm left to go back to IM injections. I just don't absorb subQ as well as IM.

I'm debating if I should go back again to either EOD or ED as injection frequency.

I would choose ED as a peace of mind about having more stable levels and less mood/emotional swings, (my SHBG is at 10). However, I think about scar tissues build up in the muscles. I also noticed 2-3 times already, that every time I add the ventrogluteal injection site, my T level drop, so I would be left injecting into quads and delts, basically rotating 4 injection sites.
I noticed when doing ED IM I would see often a lump developing on my delts, I use 29G 1/2in insulin syringe.

I thought about scrotal cream, but I'm not convinced about the excessive conversion into DHT, otherwise that would be a winner.

What do you guys think? do you perhaps have some better tips on how to rotate IM injection sites? @FunkOdyssey @Cataceous

 

[Seagal]

Hi guys,

After trying subQ injection for my 3rd time with no success, I think I'm left to go back to IM injections. I just don't absorb subQ as well as IM.

What's the difference in serum levels?
Could you adapt the subq dose to match the IM levels?

I'm debating if I should go back again to either EOD or ED as injection frequency.

I would choose ED as a peace of mind about having more stable levels and less mood/emotional swings, (my SHBG is at 10). However, I think about scar tissues build up in the muscles. I also noticed 2-3 times already, that every time I add the ventrogluteal injection site, my T level drop, so I would be left injecting into quads and delts, basically rotating 4 injection sites.
I noticed when doing ED IM I would see often a lump developing on my delts, I use 29G 1/2in insulin syringe.

I thought about scrotal cream, but I'm not convinced about the excessive conversion into DHT, otherwise that would be a winner.

You could apply the cream to your shoulders.
Another option is oral TU.

What do you guys think? do you perhaps have some better tips on how to rotate IM injection sites? @FunkOdyssey @Cataceous

 

[FunkOdyssey]

What do you guys think? do you perhaps have some better tips on how to rotate IM injection sites?

Each site can be subdivided into many more mini-sites. You don't need to, nor should you IMO, inject into the bullseye center of these muscles everytime. Move all around.

I'm debating if I should go back again to either EOD or ED as injection frequency.

EOD is great for most people. Use a thicker viscosity formula for this if the most stable levels are your goal.

However, I think about scar tissues build up in the muscles.

This doesn't have to be a thing. First, you can use 30G 1/2" instead of 29G, second, move around alot at each site as explained above, third, keep the needle as steady as possible and inject slowly. Shaking, trembling needle does damage, rapid injection does damage.

With these methods I have been doing daily VG injections (no other muscles in the rotation) for a long time with no scar tissue buildup.

 

[Gianluca]

What's the difference in serum levels?
Could you adapt the subq dose to match the IM levels?

on 18mg daily subQ my FT is around 13.8 and daily IM about 22 and feel the difference. Once I tried 30mg SubQ daily, and the only increase I saw was in HCT, my FT only at 20.

I think I'll stick with ED IM for now. thanks for your input here.

 

[Gianluca]

EOD is great for most people. Use a thicker viscosity formula for this if the most stable levels are your goal.

I was thinking about this. I use Test E in sesame oil, which I believe is one of the most viscous oils. I also did some research on how different muscles may disperse the oil at different rates. For example, the vastus lateralis may release the oil more gradually. So, combining a viscous oil with an injection site like the vastus lateralis on an EOD protocol might produce fairly stable levels compared to an ED protocol.

This doesn't have to be a thing. First, you can use 30G 1/2" instead of 29G, second, move around alot at each site as explained above, third, keep the needle as steady as possible and inject slowly. Shaking, trembling needle does damage, rapid injection does damage.

With these methods I have been doing daily VG injections (no other muscles in the rotation) for a long time with no scar tissue buildup.

thanks. I think this is what I'm going to do for now, then I would be curious to compare levels to a EOD protocol with same Test on vastus lateralis.

 

[Seagal]

on 18mg daily subQ my FT is around 13.8 and daily IM about 22 and feel the difference. Once I tried 30mg SubQ daily, and the only increase I saw was in HCT, my FT only at 20.

I think I'll stick with ED IM for now. thanks for your input here.

Now I understand what you meant by SC is not working for you.

 

[Gman86]

Each site can be subdivided into many more mini-sites. You don't need to, nor should you IMO, inject into the bullseye center of these muscles everytime. Move all around.


EOD is great for most people. Use a thicker viscosity formula for this if the most stable levels are your goal.



This doesn't have to be a thing. First, you can use 30G 1/2" instead of 29G, second, move around alot at each site as explained above, third, keep the needle as steady as possible and inject slowly. Shaking, trembling needle does damage, rapid injection does damage.

With these methods I have been doing daily VG injections (no other muscles in the rotation) for a long time with no scar tissue buildup.

So u used 30 gauge insulin needles?

How slow is the process of injecting?

Do u backfill the 30 gauge, or u use the same 30 gauge needle to draw as u do inject?

I’m currently drawing with a 27 gauge and backfilling a 29 gauge to inject. Might consider switching to a 30 gauge to inject

 

[FunkOdyssey]

So u used 30 gauge insulin needles?

Yes. I tried 27G 5/8" for awhile when I was on an EOD testosterone cypionate in MCT protocol, but I feel these are too large for ED. My T/E ratio was actually way too high on that protocol, as high as ~60:1 at one point, so in some cases you might even take things too far with the "deeper IM to limit aromatization" tactic.

How slow is the process of injecting?

About 8-10 seconds, versus the 1-2 seconds it would take if you more forcefully depress the plunger. The idea is to slowly introduce the oil depot, giving the tissue around it a little time to adjust versus ramming it in there and maybe damaging some muscle fibers in the process.

Do u backfill the 30 gauge, or u use the same 30 gauge needle to draw as u do inject?

Same needle. Backfilling scares me from a sterility perspective and I don't think needle dulling due to piercing the rubber stopper is real. Or even if it is real to some degree, it takes an electron scanning microscope to show the difference, and doesn't translate to a real life difference.

 

[Gman86]

Yes. I tried 27G 5/8" for awhile when I was on an EOD testosterone cypionate in MCT protocol, but I feel these are too large for ED. My T/E ratio was actually way too high on that protocol, as high as ~60:1 at one point, so in some cases you might even take things too far with the "deeper IM to limit aromatization" tactic.


About 8-10 seconds, versus the 1-2 seconds it would take if you more forcefully depress the plunger. The idea is to slowly introduce the oil depot, giving the tissue around it a little time to adjust versus ramming it in there and maybe damaging some muscle fibers in the process.


Same needle. Backfilling scares me from a sterility perspective and I don't think needle dulling due to piercing the rubber stopper is real. Or even if it is real to some degree, it takes an electron scanning microscope to show the difference, and doesn't translate to a real life difference.

Awesome, thanks for the reply. And taking longer to inject into the muscle might actually cause less damage than it all going in very quickly. Never even thought of that. So that could be another potential pro for an even smaller gauge. Think I’m gonna grab some 30 gauge needles next to I need to buy more.

What brand do u personally use? I usually go with easy touch myself

 

[FunkOdyssey]

What brand do u personally use? I usually go with easy touch myself

BD for everything. Easy touch is not bad, but I think BD is better quality.

 

[Gman86]

BD for everything. Easy touch is not bad, but I think BD is better quality.

But quite a bit more expensive, right? Where do u get urs from?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

But quite a bit more expensive, right? Where do u get urs from?

Yes, they are more expensive. I use tigermedical.com, which is not the cheapest option, but its one that doesn't enforce the CT laws requiring a prescription for the syringes.