Help me dial in my protocol Nebido

[Chrander]

Hi.

A little over 30y old and prescribed Nebido as trt from my doc. No guidance at all, so I want to get help from you nice guys

• 87-91kg
• 8% +- fat (3,2 mm: 12 point caliper test)
• 2800-3200 calories. Slowly reverse dieting.
• Moderate to high activity. Training 5 days a week. 10-15k steps a day.
• Strength training + mtb
• Engineer
• Melatonin 3mg ED
• L-tyrosine 750mg in the morning
• 5000iu Vit D3 (levels always normal)

TRT:

I started Nebido 17w ago. A little unconventional protocol, but here we go; 4ml split into two injections sites: w0, w3 and w6, followed by an injection at w11.

• Took some Tamoxifen along the way (about two weeks in total) du to development of tissue behind the nipples. All gone.

Now I am testing my levels every week (Thursdays) (done so from of week 15).

• Started 20mg tamoxifen Friday in week 15 due to new gyno development and S-estradiol-17beta: 0.20 (ref: 0-0,17) tested in w15, so a little high estrogen.

w15 (no tamoxifen, started the day after when labs came back with 0.2 estrogen):
F-test: 9.1 2,3- 9,9
S-test: >50 8- 35 nmol/l
Prolactin 137 <700
TSH: 3.1 0,2-4
Free t3: 3,8 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 11,7 11-23
SHBG: 55 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.2* 0-0,17


w16:

F-test: 9.4 2,3- 9,9
S-test: >50 8- 35 nmol/l
Prolactin 77 <700
TSH: 2,5 0,2-4
Free t3: 3,5 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 11,9 11-23
SHBG: 53 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.13 0-0,17

Got down to 10mg tamoxifen Friday w16.

Lates test (w17, yesterday):

Test was done in the morning not fasted (shake ++)

F-test: 7* 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 47 8- 35 nmol/l
Prolactin 152 <700
TSH: 3,5 0,2-4
Free t3: 3,7 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 13,7 . 11-23
SHBG: 67* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.12

• 5mg tamoxifen starting today (Friday w17) for one week. Tapering down from the 20mg.

So my total testosterone is now below 50 and "detectable" for the labs. Free test is a little lover and SHBG is higher. Could this be due to the usage of tamoxifen?

• Low libido. My penis is "dead". I can get it hard, but I am not horny..
• Many huge ups and downs (mood swings). Might even think it is a depression I am feeling.
  • Maby due to estrogen and the amount of testosterone in my body. Nebido is working slow, so I am just starting..
• Not feeling great.

My Q:

• When to add my next Nebido injection? This week or next? More labs? In need for my total test to lover more?
  • I want to be at upper level testosterone
• What to do regarding high SHBG (could it only be tamoxifen?)
• Libido..
• Do not want to use an AI if I do not need one

All other input is very well tolerated..

Thank you

 

[DragonBits]

Hi.

A little over 30y old and prescribed Nebido as trt from my doc. No guidance at all, so I want to get help from you nice guys

• 87-91kg
• 8% +- fat (3,2 mm: 12 point caliper test)
• 2800-3200 calories. Slowly reverse dieting.
• Moderate to high activity. Training 5 days a week. 10-15k steps a day.
• Strength training + mtb
• Engineer
• Melatonin 3mg ED
• L-tyrosine 750mg in the morning
• 5000iu Vit D3 (levels always normal)

TRT:

I started Nebido 17w ago. A little unconventional protocol, but here we go; 4ml split into two injections sites: w0, w3 and w6, followed by an injection at w11.

• Took some Tamoxifen along the way (about two weeks in total) du to development of tissue behind the nipples. All gone.

Now I am testing my levels every week (Thursdays) (done so from of week 15).

• Started 20mg tamoxifen Friday in week 15 due to new gyno development and S-estradiol-17beta: 0.20 (ref: 0-0,17) tested in w15, so a little high estrogen.

w15 (no tamoxifen, started the day after when labs came back with 0.2 estrogen):
F-test: 9.1 2,3- 9,9
S-test: >50 8- 35 nmol/l
Prolactin 137 <700
TSH: 3.1 0,2-4
Free t3: 3,8 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 11,7 11-23
SHBG: 55 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.2* 0-0,17


w16:

F-test: 9.4 2,3- 9,9
S-test: >50 8- 35 nmol/l
Prolactin 77 <700
TSH: 2,5 0,2-4
Free t3: 3,5 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 11,9 11-23
SHBG: 53 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.13 0-0,17

Got down to 10mg tamoxifen Friday w16.

Lates test (w17, yesterday):

Test was done in the morning not fasted (shake ++)

F-test: 7* 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 47 8- 35 nmol/l
Prolactin 152 <700
TSH: 3,5 0,2-4
Free t3: 3,7 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 13,7 . 11-23
SHBG: 67* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.12

• 5mg tamoxifen starting today (Friday w17) for one week. Tapering down from the 20mg.

So my total testosterone is now below 50 and "detectable" for the labs. Free test is a little lover and SHBG is higher. Could this be due to the usage of tamoxifen?

• Low libido. My penis is "dead". I can get it hard, but I am not horny..
• Many huge ups and downs (mood swings). Might even think it is a depression I am feeling.
  • Maby due to estrogen and the amount of testosterone in my body. Nebido is working slow, so I am just starting..
• Not feeling great.

My Q:

• When to add my next Nebido injection? This week or next? More labs? In need for my total test to lover more?
  • I want to be at upper level testosterone
• What to do regarding high SHBG (could it only be tamoxifen?)
• Libido..
• Do not want to use an AI if I do not need one

All other input is very well tolerated..

Thank you

Depends on your goals reason for TRT / Nebido.

If you want supraphysiological levels of testosterone to aid in body building, There are better methods than Nebido for that goal. That is what your goal seems to be.

If you are looking for libido and feeling good, why not follow the standard protocol that came with Nebido? Test levels and inject again after 10 weeks, your total T should be around 500-700 ng/dl (~ 18-24 nmol/l).

If for some personal reason you want to create your own custom protocol and keeps you at supraphysiological levels of testosterone, then I am not too familiar with how to do that, control E2, limit HCT gains, increase Libido while at very high levels. Basically, you are freelancing your protocol.

"So my total testosterone is now below 50 and "detectable" for the labs. "

The lab detects very high testosterone, but the test you are using isn't designed for supraphysiological levels of testosterone. The lab will report higher than 50 nmol/l, but how much more is anyone's guess.

If you do inject much, much sooner than 10 weeks after the last injection, at least get the expensive lcms total testostrone test when you know your levels will be above 50 nmol/l, do that test maybe 3 weeks after your last injection, that way you know how high your T levels really are.

I would include PSA test, complete blood count, comprehensive Metabolic Panel (CMP) Lipid Panel.

Reason I would include those as it's standard to include, PLUS you are doing a very non standard Nebido protocol and should know if it is affecting anything else in your blood work, like a high HCT.

 

[Chrander]

Depends on your goals reason for TRT / Nebido.

If you want supraphysiological levels of testosterone to aid in body building, There are better methods than Nebido for that goal. That is what your goal seems to be.

If you are looking for libido and feeling good, why not follow the standard protocol that came with Nebido? Test levels and inject again after 10 weeks, your total T should be around 500-700 ng/dl (~ 18-24 nmol/l).

If for some personal reason you want to create your own custom protocol and keeps you at supraphysiological levels of testosterone, then I am not too familiar with how to do that, control E2, limit HCT gains, increase Libido while at very high levels. Basically, you are freelancing your protocol.

"So my total testosterone is now below 50 and "detectable" for the labs. "

The lab detects very high testosterone, but the test you are using isn't designed for supraphysiological levels of testosterone. The lab will report higher than 50 nmol/l, but how much more is anyone's guess.

If you do inject much, much sooner than 10 weeks after the last injection, at least get the expensive lcms total testostrone test when you know your levels will be above 50 nmol/l, do that test maybe 3 weeks after your last injection, that way you know how high your T levels really are.

I would include PSA test, complete blood count, comprehensive Metabolic Panel (CMP) Lipid Panel.

Reason I would include those as it's standard to include, PLUS you are doing a very non standard Nebido protocol and should know if it is affecting anything else in your blood work, like a high HCT.

Hi and thank you for your reply.

I may have written my summary a little confusing. But you misunderstood some No hard feelings. hehe.

My goal is pure health and well being sir, but since I have the opportunity doing so and also be in the upper limit I wish to do so. My protocol is laid out by my doc, since I also thought it sounded a little "off", I want some good second opinions for what to do next.

The quote;
"So my total testosterone is now below 50 and "detectable" for the labs. "

The meaning was like you mentioned later in your post. the lab I use do not have the test that let me see the "real" values when its above 50. And now, since its a little lover, I can start see the actual numbers

Now, since I am 17w in my protocol, what is done is done, and I must look forward. I can blame my doc, but since trt is not something they do in my country, I a just pleased that someone has taken the step to help. Its been MANY years of battling

So my Q remains the same;

My Q:

• When to add my next Nebido injection? This week or next? More labs? In need for my total test to lover more?
  • I want to be at upper level testosterone
• What to do regarding high SHBG (could it only be tamoxifen?)
• Libido..
• Do not want to use an AI if I do not need one

Thank you again. I do appreciate all input

 

[DragonBits]

Hi and thank you for your reply.

My goal is pure health and well being sir, but since I have the opportunity doing so and also be in the upper limit I wish to do so.

So my Q remains the same;

My Q:

• When to add my next Nebido injection? This week or next? More labs? In need for my total test to lover more?
  • I want to be at upper level testosterone
• What to do regarding high SHBG (could it only be tamoxifen?)
• Libido..
• Do not want to use an AI if I do not need one

Thank you again. I do appreciate all input

My answer remains the same also.

I would do the next injection 10 weeks after the last injection. You could measure total T the day before that injection, then measure total T again 3 weeks after the injection.

Having total T in the upper part of the range is a desire, but you have no idea if that is what makes you feel at your best. So far it doesn't seem to work for you, as you said your libido is low and penis is "dead".

Not letting your total T get over 1300-1400 even at a peak should also limit the amount of E2 you have to deal with. Letting it fall gradually to 600 ng/dl should also help.

You could try the 10 weeks and see how that feels, shorten it to every 9 weeks if you felt the need.

You should also do the other blood tests I mentioned, which are pretty common tests all over the world.

(I am also assuming you don't have easy access to testosterone cypionate, other testosterone esters or testos cream.)

That's my advice.

 

[Chrander]

My answer remains the same also.

I would do the next injection 10 weeks after the last injection. You could measure total T the day before that injection, then measure total T again 3 weeks after the injection.

Having total T in the upper part of the range is a desire, but you have no idea if that is what makes you feel at your best. So far it doesn't seem to work for you, as you said your libido is low and penis is "dead".

Not letting your total T get over 1300-1400 even at a peak should also limit the amount of E2 you have to deal with. Letting it fall gradually to 600 ng/dl should also help.

You could try the 10 weeks and see how that feels, shorten it to every 9 weeks if you felt the need.

You should also do the other blood tests I mentioned, which are pretty common tests all over the world.

(I am also assuming you don't have easy access to testosterone cypionate, other testosterone esters or testos cream.)

That's my advice.

Super! That post is gold for me sir.

I will continue taking blood tests and not inject before my total T is in the 600 area.

• Stopped Tamoxifen today. Gyno is 85% gone and I think it will be gone soon without using tamoxifen.
• I will talk to my doc and manage a complete test like you mentioned.

I only have access to gels. It is possible, but my doc want to wait and see the effects of Nebido before sending in an application for other esters. Other esters is not ready viable for such usages in my country. Btw. daily application (gels, creams) is not something I really want to do. Less is more. Traveling etc. But if every other regime does not seem to work, I am willing to take that step. Used gels in the past and I must say I am not a fan regarding the convenience side of it.

I will follow your advice, BUT if I might ask..

• Lets say I need 4ml every 9-8-7 weeks (bloods will decide). Can injecting 2ml at half the time be more beneficial? Thinking about the "swings", trying to have more steady state levels. Should one need to inject at a higher total T number in order to get the correct "peak" value? If so, some experience?

So for now I will wait, test again and again to see when my levels reach the 600 area. Then inject. Wait and test in 3 weeks after injection. Then test when weeks 6-7-8-9 comes and determine when my next injection should be. AND not be hung up in numbers, but rather the relief of symptoms.

Have a great weekend. Now its time for some hard legtraining!

 

[HealthMan]

Super! That post is gold for me sir.

I will continue taking blood tests and not inject before my total T is in the 600 area.

• Stopped Tamoxifen today. Gyno is 85% gone and I think it will be gone soon without using tamoxifen.
• I will talk to my doc and manage a complete test like you mentioned.

I only have access to gels. It is possible, but my doc want to wait and see the effects of Nebido before sending in an application for other esters. Other esters is not ready viable for such usages in my country. Btw. daily application (gels, creams) is not something I really want to do. Less is more. Traveling etc. But if every other regime does not seem to work, I am willing to take that step. Used gels in the past and I must say I am not a fan regarding the convenience side of it.

I will follow your advice, BUT if I might ask..

• Lets say I need 4ml every 9-8-7 weeks (bloods will decide). Can injecting 2ml at half the time be more beneficial? Thinking about the "swings", trying to have more steady state levels. Should one need to inject at a higher total T number in order to get the correct "peak" value? If so, some experience?

So for now I will wait, test again and again to see when my levels reach the 600 area. Then inject. Wait and test in 3 weeks after injection. Then test when weeks 6-7-8-9 comes and determine when my next injection should be. AND not be hung up in numbers, but rather the relief of symptoms.

Have a great weekend. Now its time for some hard legtraining!

Just my 2c. Dont stop tamoxifen until gyno is 100% gone (unless you are 5-6 months on it and not completely gone). Then taper it off slowly

 

[DragonBits]

Super! That post is gold for me sir.

I will continue taking blood tests and not inject before my total T is in the 600 area.

• Stopped Tamoxifen today. Gyno is 85% gone and I think it will be gone soon without using tamoxifen.
• I will talk to my doc and manage a complete test like you mentioned.

I only have access to gels. It is possible, but my doc want to wait and see the effects of Nebido before sending in an application for other esters. Other esters is not ready viable for such usages in my country. Btw. daily application (gels, creams) is not something I really want to do. Less is more. Traveling etc. But if every other regime does not seem to work, I am willing to take that step. Used gels in the past and I must say I am not a fan regarding the convenience side of it.

I will follow your advice, BUT if I might ask..

• Lets say I need 4ml every 9-8-7 weeks (bloods will decide). Can injecting 2ml at half the time be more beneficial? Thinking about the "swings", trying to have more steady state levels. Should one need to inject at a higher total T number in order to get the correct "peak" value? If so, some experience?

So for now I will wait, test again and again to see when my levels reach the 600 area. Then inject. Wait and test in 3 weeks after injection. Then test when weeks 6-7-8-9 comes and determine when my next injection should be. AND not be hung up in numbers, but rather the relief of symptoms.

Have a great weekend. Now its time for some hard legtraining!

IMO injecting 1/2 nebdio twice as often will create more problems. That would be two 500 mg injections of T instead of 1 1000 mg.

My best guess is after an injection of Nebdio my testosterone peaks at about 1200-1500 total testosterone ~20 days after injection, then slowly declines.

IMO injecting 2 ml (500 mg) will cause a similar spike up to 1200-1500 total T, just two times instead of once. Then serum T will decline sooner with the 2 ml Vs 4 ml. It won't last as long. Keep in mind that when you "split" the dose, your baseline will be higher when you do inject after say 5 weeks.

When people move to daily injections of testos c, they create daily spikes, but the spikes aren't very high since they are only injecting 14-25 mg daily.

Most people don't measure peak serum testosterone two days after a 100-200 mg (weekly) testos C injection, but if they did, I think serum T would be in the 1200-1500 ng/dl range or higher.

It seem to me it's both the spikes up combined with how high is the spike is what causes increased HCT. (Frequency + degree) Frequent small spikes up aren't usually a problem, spikes up to high levels once every 3 months aren't usually a problem.

 

[bbex2014]

Would there be any benefit to doing once a week "micro" injections so to speak, like how we do daily micro injections with cyp? Is Nebido so long estered that it simply wouldn't make any sense?

 

[TotalTest]

I’ve been on Nebido now for six months, 140mg a week shallow IM. I just dropped the dose to 120mg a week as my test level was a little too high.
I feel great and injecting only once a week. I’ve seen dramatic results on this protocol.

 

[Chrander]

I’ve been on Nebido now for six months, 140mg a week shallow IM. I just dropped the dose to 120mg a week as my test level was a little too high.
I feel great and injecting only once a week. I’ve seen dramatic results on this protocol.

Did you go over to this protocol after the first original regime, or straight away? Wouldnt it take a whole lot of time to build up in your bloodstream only using 140mg Nebido every week? Nebido also has a lower "potent" aspect to it, only 630 mg pr 4ml if I do understand correct. Do you have blood results to show for I might ask?

I took my blood sample today, will get the results in tomorrow. Still no libido.. Sadly..

 

[TotalTest]

Total test pre TRT 280ng/dl

I did my first shot with 1000mg, my butt hurt for four days!
The first week I put on about 4kg most likely all water and my
blood pressure was elevated to around 150/80 for four weeks.

By the fifth week I was feeling as bad as I did before I started. My total test measured 330ng/dl.

It was a real roller coaster ride for me and I was concerned about my elevated blood pressure.

So I asked to try 200mg every ten days.

It did take a while to build up levels again. After about seven weeks on this protocol I was feeling pretty good.

Total test 650ng/dl.

I decided to do weekly shots at 140mg. Just because it was just easier doing the shot on the same day at the same time each week.

Total test 825ng/dl.

I felt great on this protocol but my Doctor thought my test levels were too high.

So now I have been on 125mg/week. I’ll test my levels again after 8 weeks.

My blood pressure is back in normal range now and the injections are pain free.

 

[Chrander]

Total test pre TRT 280ng/dl

I did my first shot with 1000mg, my butt hurt for four days!
The first week I put on about 4kg most likely all water and my
blood pressure was elevated to around 150/80 for four weeks.

By the fifth week I was feeling as bad as I did before I started. My total test measured 330ng/dl.

It was a real roller coaster ride for me and I was concerned about my elevated blood pressure.

So I asked to try 200mg every ten days.

It did take a while to build up levels again. After about seven weeks on this protocol I was feeling pretty good.

Total test 650ng/dl.

I decided to do weekly shots at 140mg. Just because it was just easier doing the shot on the same day at the same time each week.

Total test 825ng/dl.

I felt great on this protocol but my Doctor thought my test levels were too high.

So now I have been on 125mg/week. I’ll test my levels again after 8 weeks.

My blood pressure is back in normal range now and the injections are pain free.

Thats like injection ew 7-8 weeks. Do you feel more stable injecting mor often? How is your mood and libido etc.?

Got my results back from the last blood test, taken yesterday (7 days since last; results see above).

Serum test has fallen by 13 points and my SHBG is still pretty high. I have taken 10mg tamoxifen for gyno (total 3 weeks). Stopped that from off today.

W18

F-test: 5.9* 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 34 8- 35 nmol/l . (980 ng/dl)
Prolactin 123 <700
TSH: 3,2 0,2-4
Free t3: 3,9 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 12,4 . 11-23
SHBG: 58* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.13


Still no libido. Sadly...

Thinking of waiting 1w to take another sample, and if the value is around 23-25 I will inject my next 4 ml Nebido. Any thoughts?

Thanks for all replies.

 

[TotalTest]

Yes the bottle lasts 8 weeks.

I don't feel any fluctuations in mood or libido injecting weekly, I feel very stable.

 

[Chrander]

Yes the bottle lasts 8 weeks.

I don't feel any fluctuations in mood or libido injecting weekly, I feel very stable.

Hi.

So your test level was 330 the day on or before starting 200mg every 10d?

On the EW protocol, how is your free test and such?

I will take new blood sample tomorrow. Last week I was 34 (8-35 nmol/l). Do think I am going to inject 4ml as prescribed, but I am so afraid of getting too large swings again. That is my biggest concern. I want more stability and not that big spike the first weeks.

New demanding job and had a hell of a rollercoaster leading up to the last couple of weeks. Feeling better now that my levels are inside “normal”.

Still on 20mg tamoxifen for gyno. Will cut it very soon. That is maby why my SHBG is so high.

I really like the “convenience “ of inj only every 7-10 weeks. But if injecting EW is better long term, I can talkt to my doc about it. I imagine it will take a lot of time before levels are stable up in the "higher normal" area.

May I ask why your doc prescribed such a protocol for u and not the standard? Butt hurts?

DragonBits: what is your take on doing it this way rather than the standard protocol.

Thanks.

 

[Chrander]

Hi.

I am now New blood sample inn;

W19

F-test: 5.1 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 34 8- 35 nmol/l . (980 ng/dl)
Prolactin 439* <700
Free t3: 3,8 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 13,3 . 11-23
SHBG: 67* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.07

My testosterone is the same as last week, so no decline. SHBG has risen even more. It might be due to 20mg tamoxifen (decided to stay on 20mg one week longer just to be safe regarding gyno when first on it..). Startet tapering today (10mg for one week then stop). Estradiol is down. My prolactin levels has increased a lot I see..

Feeling "sharper". The two-three weeks have been more stable. Not much to say about libido. I have only been in the "normal" range of testosterone the last two weeks out of the 19 weeks, so I can feel the difference quite significantly. More is not better..

• Will take new bloods in a week. Trying to find out when to inject next.

 

[Cataceous]

...
My best guess is after an injection of Nebdio my testosterone peaks at about 1200-1500 total testosterone ~20 days after injection, then slowly declines.

IMO injecting 2 ml (500 mg) will cause a similar spike up to 1200-1500 total T, just two times instead of once. Then serum T will decline sooner with the 2 ml Vs 4 ml. It won't last as long. Keep in mind that when you "split" the dose, your baseline will be higher when you do inject after say 5 weeks.
...

These ideas on splitting the dose contradict what is widely accepted; in general half the dose produces a similar response curve to the full dose, only at about half the magnitude. Therefore peak serum levels are almost cut in half and trough values are raised, smoothing everything out. Hormonal fluctuations are ok and normal when they occur daily, but generally seem to produce worse results when they take place over days or weeks. Therefore I would expect better results from taking half as much Nebido twice as often.

 

[Chrander]

These ideas on splitting the dose contradict what is widely accepted; in general half the dose produces a similar response curve to the full dose, only at about half the magnitude. Therefore peak serum levels are almost cut in half and trough values are raised, smoothing everything out. Hormonal fluctuations are ok and normal when they occur daily, but generally seem to produce worse results when they take place over days or weeks. Therefore I would expect better results from taking half as much Nebido twice as often.

So if I need 4ml every 8 weeks, it "can" be better doing 2ml shots every 4th week.

I imagine the serum testosterone values has to be higher before each shot then, compared to doing 4ml. My levels are now at 34 nmol/l, and I was thinking of waiting until the level is at 20-25 area before injecting. Since the magnitude is half and serum levels "should" only rise half the amount, I should inject before it hits 20-25. Am I correct?

I know the steady state levels needed for each individ is different in order to feel the best, but what is the general thought on this? How far down should it go before new injection?

Will be taking new sample next week and see where I am at.

I want to feel the best, have libido and if possible, injecting at an intervall that is not a "hassle" if you know what I mean. Having to inject every week for the rest of my life is more of a hassle than injecting every 4 or 8 weeks..

 

[DragonBits]

These ideas on splitting the dose contradict what is widely accepted; in general half the dose produces a similar response curve to the full dose, only at about half the magnitude. Therefore peak serum levels are almost cut in half and trough values are raised, smoothing everything out. Hormonal fluctuations are ok and normal when they occur daily, but generally seem to produce worse results when they take place over days or weeks. Therefore I would expect better results from taking half as much Nebido twice as often.

Not sure what you mean by "better results". Less adverse results, more muscle, more libido?? I am not sure what you mean by "better results"?

But I don't believe what you posted is entirely true. You are first assuming a higher steady state level of testosterone is more negative than frequent big (but smaller) spikes and drops.

HCT occurrences are lower on nebido than any other protocol. How can you explain that?

Testosterone cypionate or enanthate
(short-acting injectable)100-200 mg IM every week
67% get a rise over 50%

Testosterone undecanoate (long-acting injectable)1000 mg, 12 weeks
7% get a rise over 50%

Transdermal gel 50-100 mg every day(sachets)
Testosterone 20-80 mg every day (dosing pump)
13% get a rise over 50%

Pellets Crystalline testosterone 75 mg/pellet implanted, 10-14 pellets every 3-6 month
35% get a rise over 50%.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From an NIH study.

"This rightward shift in the EPO–hemoglobin relationship curve suggests that testosterone administration had reset the “set point” for EPO in relation to hemoglobin."

Testosterone Induces Erythrocytosis via Increased Erythropoietin and Suppressed Hepcidin: Evidence for a New Erythropoietin/Hemoglobin Set Point

IMO the one spike up and long drift down allows your body to adapt to the higher levels of testosterone, while constant spikes up and down are difficult to adapt to.

But the data suggest it is a combination of the degree of the spike up and frequency of spikes. So much smaller spikes frequently isn't a problem, one larger spike up with a drift down in 3 months isn't a problem, but frequent large spikes and drops are the biggest problem. Thus bi-montly testosterone cypionate has more negative effects than week, better yet is every 3 days or daily. Better meaning fewer adverse side effects. But testosterone cypionate has a much quicker release time than testosterone undecanoate (nebido, aveed).

==============================================
BTW I wonder if one injected 2 ml nebido in each cheek of your butt, would you get a much higher initial level of testosterone? I would think so.
==============================================

In any case, I am mostly a libertarian and people can experiment all they want, but don't expect the same results as you would get following an established and tested protocol. It's kind of out on your own as to what will happen and I don't think you can predict it based on a theory.

 

[Cataceous]

So if I need 4ml every 8 weeks, it "can" be better doing 2ml shots every 4th week.

I imagine the serum testosterone values has to be higher before each shot then, compared to doing 4ml. My levels are now at 34 nmol/l, and I was thinking of waiting until the level is at 20-25 area before injecting. Since the magnitude is half and serum levels "should" only rise half the amount, I should inject before it hits 20-25. Am I correct?

I know the steady state levels needed for each individ is different in order to feel the best, but what is the general thought on this? How far down should it go before new injection?

Will be taking new sample next week and see where I am at.

I want to feel the best, have libido and if possible, injecting at an intervall that is not a "hassle" if you know what I mean. Having to inject every week for the rest of my life is more of a hassle than injecting every 4 or 8 weeks..

Yes, in my opinion injecting 2 mL every four weeks is better than 4 mL every eight weeks. This should give fairly steady testosterone levels. Large swings over days or weeks are almost always subjectively worse, with estradiol going high after the peaks and testosterone going low before the next injection.

That said, you must do what you find to be sustainable. But presumably you're motivated enough to inject at least once a month.

 

[Cataceous]

Not sure what you mean by "better results". Less adverse results, more muscle, more libido?? I am not sure what you mean by "better results"?

But I don't believe what you posted is entirely true. You are first assuming a higher steady state level of testosterone is more negative than frequent big (but smaller) spikes and drops.

HCT occurrences are lower on nebido than any other protocol. How can you explain that?

Testosterone cypionate or enanthate
(short-acting injectable)100-200 mg IM every week
67% get a rise over 50%

Testosterone undecanoate (long-acting injectable)1000 mg, 12 weeks
7% get a rise over 50%

Transdermal gel 50-100 mg every day(sachets)
Testosterone 20-80 mg every day (dosing pump)
13% get a rise over 50%

Pellets Crystalline testosterone 75 mg/pellet implanted, 10-14 pellets every 3-6 month
35% get a rise over 50%.
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From an NIH study.

"This rightward shift in the EPO–hemoglobin relationship curve suggests that testosterone administration had reset the “set point” for EPO in relation to hemoglobin."

Testosterone Induces Erythrocytosis via Increased Erythropoietin and Suppressed Hepcidin: Evidence for a New Erythropoietin/Hemoglobin Set Point

IMO the one spike up and long drift down allows your body to adapt to the higher levels of testosterone, while constant spikes up and down are difficult to adapt to.

But the data suggest it is a combination of the degree of the spike up and frequency of spikes. So much smaller spikes frequently isn't a problem, one larger spike up with a drift down in 3 months isn't a problem, but frequent large spikes and drops are the biggest problem. Thus bi-montly testosterone cypionate has more negative effects than week, better yet is every 3 days or daily. Better meaning fewer adverse side effects. But testosterone cypionate has a much quicker release time than testosterone undecanoate (nebido, aveed).

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BTW I wonder if one injected 2 ml nebido in each cheek of your butt, would you get a much higher initial level of testosterone? I would think so.
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In any case, I am mostly a libertarian and people can experiment all they want, but don't expect the same results as you would get following an established and tested protocol. It's kind of out on your own as to what will happen and I don't think you can predict it based on a theory.

Better results in that you're less likely to have side effects from high estradiol around the peaks, and less likely to go hypogonadal before your next injection. The "spike up" and long drift down of testosterone are precisely what allows peak estradiol to become excessive. Nebido fairs better with HCT because the dose is so low. If you injected only 75 mg a week of T cypionate you'd get similar results. But you're comparing to guys injecting 100-200 mg per week.