HCG DOSE FREQUENCY FOR MEN - FERTILITY & TESTICULAR ATROPHY

Hi everybody.
I would like to hear from people having experience (or having knowledge) on different hcg dose frequency protocols. Basically I want to know if every day lower dose has any different outcome, better o worse, compared to every other day, every 3 days, twice weekly etc. I mean, same weekly dose but different frequencies.
My motivation is that I am looking for fertility, but I am very sensitive to estradiol, and hcg gives me plenty. So I would prefer smaller but daily doses. In other hand, I wonder if such a daily dose would impair leydig cells respond being flooded constanty at their LH receeptors...

AI Thread Overview:

Briefing Document: HCG Dose Frequency for Men - Fertility & Testicular Atrophy​

Source: Excerpts from "HCG DOSE FREQUENCY FOR MEN - FERTILITY & TESTICULAR ATROPHY - Excel Male TRT Forum"

This briefing document synthesizes key themes and important facts regarding HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) dosage and frequency in men, particularly concerning fertility and testicular atrophy, as discussed in the Excel Male TRT Forum.

I. Main Themes & Key Takeaways:​

1. HCG's Role and Mimicry of LH: HCG mimics Luteinizing Hormone (LH) but is not LH itself. It is "not picked up by the LH blood test" and, surprisingly, "suppresses LH like endogeneous testosterone does." Despite suppressing LH and even FSH, HCG has been shown to "increase sperm production and quality."
2. Importance of "Higher Peaks" for Efficacy: A recurring theme is that HCG may not be effective unless "higher peaks" are reached. Several contributors, including forum founder Nelson Vergel, emphasize this point. This suggests that a constant, low-level presence may be less effective than intermittent, higher doses.
3. Optimal Dosing for Efficacy (General Consensus):

• "Doses under 400 IU have been shown to likely be ineffective." (DS3)
• Many users report success with 500 IU per injection.
• One user (xcpatr922) found 300-350 IU to be "incredibly strong."

1. Frequency and its Impact:

• Every Other Day (EOD) or Twice Weekly (E2D): This appears to be a commonly favored and effective frequency.
• Jucaro, the thread starter, initially considered daily lower doses due to estradiol sensitivity but, based on feedback, planned to switch to "500 IU eod instead 250 IU ed."
• Vince, a Super Moderator, has been injecting "500 IU twice a week for over 7 years now" and likes the results.
• Xcpatr922 feels testicles "pretty full for about 48-60 hours post HCG injection," suggesting "the best frequency is between this 48-72 hours."
• Daily Dosing (Lower IU): While initially considered by Jucaro for E2 sensitivity, the consensus leans against it for efficacy due to the need for "higher peaks." However, Askr reported increased morning wood by splitting HCG to "250iu 4x per week" (Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday) rather than 500iu twice weekly on the same days as testosterone. This suggests a potential benefit for some aspects, though not directly addressing fertility in his comment.
• Once Weekly (High Dose): A paper from 1987 (cited by Jucaro) suggests "HCG (1500 IU every six days) in untreated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism" could be effective for spermatogenesis, indicating that longer intervals with higher doses might also work, though the specific dose is key.

1. Estradiol (E2) Sensitivity and Management:

• HCG can significantly increase estradiol levels. Jucaro notes, "I am looking for fertility, but I am very sensitive to estradiol, and hcg gives me plenty."
• Strategies mentioned for managing E2:
• Splitting HCG doses to different days than Testosterone injections (Askr).
• Considering Anastrozol, even though "E2 from HCG is not produced through aromatization," with the expectation that it might "avoid further E2 elevation coming from testosterone" (Jucaro).
• Calcium D Glucarate: Askr reported success using "calcium d glucerate 1000mg 3x per day" which "brought my e2 from 67.7 to 42 over a 3 month period."

1. HCG for Fertility and Sperm Parameters:

• HCG "can increase sperm production and quality even in the absence of LH AND FSH." (Nelson Vergel, citing a study).
• Forumjoe, using "1000 IU EOD" for HCG (alternating with Clomid every 3 months), reported significant improvement in sperm parameters: "number from 10 million to 100 million per ml and the motility, morphology and all of the other parameters are in good standing now compared to 2-3 years ago." This improvement took "about the first year or so and getting better over time."

1. Comparison with Clomid:

• Forumjoe has experience with both Clomid and HCG for fertility. While sperm improved with both, he notes "I do better on HCG then clomid, my baseline libido is pretty low on both but better on HCG."
• Clomid's effects are described as "more subtle and take longer to show," while HCG is "more of roller coaster."
• Jucaro states, "My problem with clomid is that it kills my libido completely."

1. HCG Monotherapy: Jucaro considered and began "HCG monotherapy" after stopping TRT, indicating it can be a viable option for some, at least initially.

II. Most Important Ideas or Facts:​

• HCG's Efficacy Requires "Higher Peaks": "Unless you reach higher peaks, hCG may not work." (Nelson Vergel) This is fundamental to dosage and frequency considerations.
• Minimum Effective Dose: "Doses under 400 IU have been shown to likely be ineffective." (DS3). Many successful protocols involve 500 IU per injection.
• Effective Frequencies: Dosing every other day (EOD) or twice weekly (E2W) with 500 IU per injection appears to be a common and effective approach for many users for testicular health and fertility.
• Sperm Improvement with HCG: HCG can drastically improve sperm count and other parameters, even in cases of low initial counts (e.g., "10 million to 100 million per ml"). This improvement can take a year or more.
• HCG's Impact on Estradiol: HCG is known to increase E2, necessitating awareness and potential management strategies like dose splitting or the use of aromatase inhibitors/supplements.
• HCG vs. Clomid for Libido: Clomid can negatively impact libido for some users, whereas HCG may be better in this regard.

This briefing summarizes the practical experiences and insights shared within the forum regarding HCG use, highlighting effective dosing strategies, frequency considerations, and common side effects like estradiol elevation, along with fertility outcomes.

 

Can't find either PDF in my library account. @madman ?

 

Umm...what dose?

Thought I posted a thread earlier this year for that paper as I have been sitting on it since January.

Trying to come across the thread.

Doses used in the study:

*HCG 5000 U and HMG 150 U (Livzon Pharmaceutical Co) was intramuscularly injected once a week, and the dosing was the same throughout the study. Regular follow-up was conducted at an interval of 3 to 6 months during the therapy. For the twice-a-week week group, twice-weekly intramuscular injections of HCG (2000-3000 U) and HMG (75-150 U) were given for 6 months

 

Thanks. It now makes sense.

 

Thanks. It now makes sense.

Could not come across the old thread.

Just posted up a new one!

 

Thanks. It now makes sense.

Nelson, which brands of hCG have you personally found work best for you?

 

HCG and Bodybuilding: Dosage, PCT, Side Effects & FAQ

HCG in a bodybuilding context is a common practice, often seen in TRT stacks and Post Cycle Therapy (PCT). But how is HCG used and is it safe?

jaycampbell.com

"My strategy was to use hCG at 125 iu’s 3 days in a row every 21 days. As you can see this strategy worked perfectly well.."

That's what Jay Campbell says about HCG dosing for fertility... It does not make any sense to me....
Any opinion on that?

 

HCG and Bodybuilding: Dosage, PCT, Side Effects & FAQ

HCG in a bodybuilding context is a common practice, often seen in TRT stacks and Post Cycle Therapy (PCT). But how is HCG used and is it safe?

jaycampbell.com

"My strategy was to use hCG at 125 iu’s 3 days in a row every 21 days. As you can see this strategy worked perfectly well.."

That's what Jay Campbell says about HCG dosing for fertility... It does not make any sense to me....
Any opinion on that?

He probably maintained a small amount of fertility no matter what while on TRT and the HCG didn't do anything more than a mental masturbation. That's my best guess at his situation but I could be wrong. HCG did nothing to maintain my fertility on TRT and I used was more than he did and more frequently.

 

HCG and Bodybuilding: Dosage, PCT, Side Effects & FAQ

HCG in a bodybuilding context is a common practice, often seen in TRT stacks and Post Cycle Therapy (PCT). But how is HCG used and is it safe?

jaycampbell.com

"My strategy was to use hCG at 125 iu’s 3 days in a row every 21 days. As you can see this strategy worked perfectly well.."

That's what Jay Campbell says about HCG dosing for fertility... It does not make any sense to me....
Any opinion on that?

I understand now. I saw one of his videos and it was by insemination, which can be done even with a sample of very low sperm count.

 

Hi everybody.
I would like to hear from people having experience (or having knowledge) on different hcg dose frequency protocols. Basically I want to know if every day lower dose has any different outcome, better o worse, compared to every other day, every 3 days, twice weekly etc. I mean, same weekly dose but different frequencies.
My motivation is that I am looking for fertility, but I am very sensitive to estradiol, and hcg gives me plenty. So I would prefer smaller but daily doses. In other hand, I wonder if such a daily dose would impair leydig cells respond being flooded constanty at their LH receeptors...

I don't know but I have my best sensitivity/action when I have at least everyday HCG for 5 days with 250 iu. Almost nothing can beat this if I do daily. Also, it seems ovidac is seemed more working for me than pregnyl.

 

Unless you reach higher peaks, hCG may not work.

Best HCG Dose for Men on TRT: Two Studies That Used HCG with Testosterone - Excel Male TRT Forum

Note:HCG mimics LH but it is not LH and it's not picked up by the LH blood test. In fact, it suppresses LH like endogeneous testosterone does. But the amazing thing that the study below found is that HCG can increase sperm production and quality even in the absence of LH AND FSH. Most...

www.excelmale.com

What is the best dose of HCG? Dr Saya presents two case studies. - Excel Male TRT Forum

Community - I am sharing and have attached the write-up of a recent small case study I have conducted on quantitative serum beta hCG concentrations relating to hCG injections. This study is limited to dosages of 150iu and 500iu, although I hope to obtain more data in the near future. P.S...

www.excelmale.com

Would you recommend 500iu x2 a week vs 250iu 3x a week or even 250iu 2x a week? I'm trying get the max benefits while keeping my e2 in check. HCG always spikes it...

 

I cannot tell you about my sperm levels while on it, however my morning wood increased to every day when I split my hcg to 250iu 4x per week, my schedule looks like this

Monday test 80mg, Tuesday hcg 250, wed hcg 250, Thurs test 80mg, Friday nothing, Saturday hcg 250, Sunday hcg 250

My original protocol was test 80mg twice per week and hcg 500iu in the same day as test. And the day before my next shot sometimes my morning wood would be less apparent.

I was also getting some higher e2 levels so it's originally why I switched hcg to diffent days than my shots.

I also use calcium d glucerate 1000mg 3x per day (morning, afternoon and night 2x 500mg caps) and that brought my e2 from 67.7 to 42 over a 3 month period.

Hope this helps.

Is this still working for you? I.e. doing HCG on a different day than your T injection? And still taking the CDG?

 

Would you recommend 500iu x2 a week vs 250iu 3x a week or even 250iu 2x a week? I'm trying get the max benefits while keeping my e2 in check. HCG always spikes it...

That is what i would like to know, seems these two are the most common approaches found on the internet, the Saya study Nelson linked does not really make sense in the sense that so many use 250 mon-wed-fri, and many even use just 250 every 3,5 days.
In my case there seems to be a loss of spontaneous and night time erections and libido on 500iu doses, but general well being is ok and sensitivity+erection quality, just no real urge for sexual activity. In the 250-300 range there is libido, sometimes even excessive, but also more anxiety. I should probably just stick it out for longer with the lower doses but the anxiety on the first day gets pretty bad.
Its funny how much discrepancy there is on hcg frequency, must be something to do with it's progesterone effects, we do know that testosterone peak seems to occur around 3-day mark, so that would make twice weekly quite sufficient, but there is considerable variation in how i feel on day 1 vs day3 after any dose of hcg.

I hope more people would comment where they ended up on mono or combined with T.

 

I wish Saya had chosen 250iu instead of the 150iu and included testosterone measurements.
This data most are probably familiar with seems to indicate no need for more than e3.5d administration when it comes to maintaining testosterone with HCG alfa.(fig 3)

First‐in‐human trial assessing the pharmacokinetic‐pharmacodynamic profile of a novel recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin in healthy women and men of reproductive age - PMC

The purpose of this first‐in‐human trial was to examine the safety, pharmacokinetics (PK), and pharmacodynamics (PD) of a novel recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin (rhCG; FE 999302, choriogonadotropin beta) to support its clinical development ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

That is what i would like to know, seems these two are the most common approaches found on the internet, the Saya study Nelson linked does not really make sense in the sense that so many use 250 mon-wed-fri, and many even use just 250 every 3,5 days.
In my case there seems to be a loss of spontaneous and night time erections and libido on 500iu doses, but general well being is ok and sensitivity+erection quality, just no real urge for sexual activity. In the 250-300 range there is libido, sometimes even excessive, but also more anxiety. I should probably just stick it out for longer with the lower doses but the anxiety on the first day gets pretty bad.
Its funny how much discrepancy there is on hcg frequency, must be something to do with it's progesterone effects, we do know that testosterone peak seems to occur around 3-day mark, so that would make twice weekly quite sufficient, but there is considerable variation in how i feel on day 1 vs day3 after any dose of hcg.

I hope more people would comment where they ended up on mono or combined with T.

The answers depend on the scenario and goals. Want fertility or just avoid testicular atrophy? HCG monotherapy or along Trt? Age? How long being on trt? And more.

 

Goals is wellbeing, libido and erections, steady state. If ITT is almost maintained on 250iu eod, and 25% more on 500iu eod, i don't know if even on monotherapy one should be going higher, the higher doses are probably just thought to be necessary for monotherapy due to being present in fertility studies.
Currently trying to take advantage of washed out exogenous test and trialing mono hcg, also have access for free to rFSH, i would like to run them for a while to discover the potential of my testicles in size and test levels. But, it must be also about quality of life. I also think running only HCG for fertility is an outdated method.
Age 43, been running different protocols over 10 years, adding t gel or sustanon on top of hcg and fsh is also an option. If it was sustanon, once weekly injections would probably be an option, since it takes couple of days for hcg to raise t, and in the first couple of days the propionates of sust have ran their course somewhat. E2 might be problematic though, not really open to AIs anymore.

 

Intratesticular levels does not correlate with blood levels, then, just to attend testicular health, you need lower hcg doses as you mention, but you may need to add exogenous testosterone for your complete wellbeing. If not testosterone, then you need higher doses of hcg to use it as monotherapy, but for some of us it may come with higher e2 and loss of libido and erectile dysfunction. Adding some Anastrozol and pde5i may help.

 

Goals is wellbeing, libido and erections, steady state. If ITT is almost maintained on 250iu eod, and 25% more on 500iu eod, i don't know if even on monotherapy one should be going higher, the higher doses are probably just thought to be necessary for monotherapy due to being present in fertility studies.
Currently trying to take advantage of washed out exogenous test and trialing mono hcg, also have access for free to rFSH, i would like to run them for a while to discover the potential of my testicles in size and test levels. But, it must be also about quality of life. I also think running only HCG for fertility is an outdated method.
Age 43, been running different protocols over 10 years, adding t gel or sustanon on top of hcg and fsh is also an option. If it was sustanon, once weekly injections would probably be an option, since it takes couple of days for hcg to raise t, and in the first couple of days the propionates of sust have ran their course somewhat. E2 might be problematic though, not really open to AIs anymore.

It is also known that testosterone itself impairs to some degree the action of hcg at testicular level by inhibiting an enzyme involved in the production of endogenous testosterone, so it is always better hcg alone for its maximum effect, valid especially for older men and those with longer history of exogenous testosterone use, for whom combination with testosterone makes some impairs to the best result if good semen parameters is a goal. FSH is also a must in this situation (except if clomiphene is welcome to your body and your brain, which is not my case).

 

Intratesticular levels does not correlate with blood levels, then, just to attend testicular health, you need lower hcg doses as you mention, but you may need to add exogenous testosterone for your complete wellbeing. If not testosterone, then you need higher doses of hcg to use it as monotherapy, but for some of us it may come with higher e2 and loss of libido and erectile dysfunction. Adding some Anastrozol and pde5i may help.

then there are reports of some guys cruising on hcg mono on doses such as 250iu 3xweek, 500iu 2xweek. There are no studies validating the claim that hcg mono works only with higher doses, supraphysiological ITT was always required for fertility when rFSH was not used. Would be nice to have a study comparing 250, 500, 1000, 1500 eod effect on testosterone levels and e2, progesterone etc...

It's funny how the shot day of hcg there is always more libido, even though the effect on testosterone follows behind.

 

then there are reports of some guys cruising on hcg mono on doses such as 250iu 3xweek, 500iu 2xweek. There are no studies validating the claim that hcg mono works only with higher doses, supraphysiological ITT was always required for fertility when rFSH was not used. Would be nice to have a study comparing 250, 500, 1000, 1500 eod effect on testosterone levels and e2, progesterone etc...

It's funny how the shot day of hcg there is always more libido, even though the effect on testosterone follows behind.

Here is where the other questions play a role. Age, how long you have been on Trt, which involve the capacity of your testicles to respond, etc.
It makes sense to start low, ex. 500 iu, wait and check labs, adjust dose, add complementary (Ex Ai, cabergoline), check again and so.
Through the last 4 years I have tried many different doses and combinations along my journey to fertility. I am 56 y/o, married to 24 years younger woman.
My experience: on Hcg mono: 500 IU EOD: total testosterone 560 ng/dl, E2: 38 pg/ml. Low libido

Then, HCG mono 1000 IU EOD: TT 420 ng/dl, E2 58 pg/ml, feeling hypogonadal.
So there is down-regulation or desensitization, may be for excess of intratesticular E2, or directly for less expression of LH receptors due to continues and higher exposure to Hcg stimulus.
Come back to HCG 500 IU eod, add testosterone 100 mg/week, feel good but need pde5i.
Add rFSH 75 IU to help semen parameters which still were not good, then got minimum good sperm count, motility, morphology. (Wife got pregnant once, miscarriage, then FIV twice: miscarriages, turned out she has got her own problems with uterine fibroids and inmune conditions, we still struggling for a baby)
Over time, I loose completely my libido and sperm quality go down, add Anastrozol and recover libido and can skip pde5i for first time in years, then sperm quality not good yet, stop trt (This is currently), and stay HCG monotherapy (780 IU ovitrelle every 3rd day) + rFSH + Anastrozol, results: testicles bigger and hanging more than I can recall, Libido getting better progressively after a dramatic fall. Need for pde5i. Sperm quality and labs to be tested yet.

Conclusions:
1- You need to do serial labs to know what HCG dose, frequency and combination with T. is good for you
2- There is for sure transitory down-regulation/ desensitization as you increase dose and frequency of HCG. E2 control is key.
3.- for fertility you can be on TRT (with hcg, fsh) but you are better off. Especially if you have some age and have been on trt for long time. Exogenous testosterone makes its own impairment at testicular level.

 

It's funny how the shot day of hcg there is always more libido, even though the effect on testosterone follows behind

For me is like that: (As a general rule but not always)
shot day: transitory libido boost about 3 hours later.
Second day: low libido, may need bigger dose of pde5i.
3rd and 4th days: bigger and sensitive testicles, better libido.