Having trouble fighting off depression ~8 weeks in, suggestions?

[smokedsalmon]

Hey guys, rewrote this post to be easier to follow.

Started on TRT in mid June to help with libido, erection, mood, confidence and energy issues I've had for years. I have a pituitary tumor and treatments relative to that had not been helpful at all. I "tried" TRT before this - that is, I was prescribed, started, but then got hesitant about the commitment. However, each time, I felt great and found that it helped a lot.

The first couple weeks of TRT (150mg T cyp/week and 900IU HCG/week) were amazing, as expected. Then it leveled off more, but the benefits remained - just didn't feel high as a kite. Great!

However, I soon started feeling bloated and piling on water weight, and then started crying randomly. I dropped HCG, which I think was making me feel worse (jittery, anxious). I quickly assumed high E2 and began taking aromasin, CDG, and DIM to take care of it. A member on another forum said 150mg is way too high, so I went down to 100mg. Well, within 2 weeks, I felt even worse. I got a blood test and was surprised that I instead had low E2!

TT 529
FT 18.6
E2 12.7

Not to mention, my TT was nowhere near where I expected it to be, but my FT is at least much better. Since this test, I went back to 150mg/week, and have stayed clear of the AI (minus 2x6.25mg of aromasin between the test and the results).

Well, it's been a few weeks, and I'm getting concerned because I'm overall miserable, depressed, lacking energy, no interest in going to the gym (in many weeks), no sexual function, a lot of back pain, and probably more I'm forgetting. My to-do list is growing, my therapist is pressuring me to get more done, I haven't shaved in who knows how long, and really I just want to lay in bed and eat fast food. I've spent a few weekends laying in bed, and often I just come home from work (where I've been for a whopping 4 hours) and lay on the couch. The thought of spending 8 hours at work is laughable. I stay in bed for close to 12 hours lately. I even considered starting an antidepressant today. 3 months ago, I was at least very excited about my diet, fitness, and starting TRT. Now, it's like I'm just waiting to not wake up one day. It's really not fun!

Is this from crashing my E2? Am I doing something else wrong (besides initially messing around with my protocol too much)? Any other suggestions? Before TRT I felt like a cranky old man, but now I feel like a miserable excuse for a human who's just waiting for every day to pass.

 

[Gman86]

Are you still taking the HCG?

Were those labs done at trough right before your scheduled weekly injection?

I’d personally try dropping the HCG, stay on the 150mg/ week, and inject EOD. Then get labs done in 6 weeks. What’s your SHBG?

 

[smokedsalmon]

Are you still taking the HCG?

Were those labs done at trough right before your scheduled weekly injection?

I’d personally try dropping the HCG, stay on the 150mg/ week, and inject EOD. Then get labs done in 6 weeks. What’s your SHBG?

Thanks for your reply man.

No HCG now.

I inject daily (and have for over a month), and the labs were done in the morning before my injection.

SHBG I haven't measured since TRT, but has always been around 40, sometimes closer to 50.

I was considering getting some labs done early again just to make sure I'm headed in the right direction. That last round of labs probably saved me from really crashing my E2 to 0.

 

[Systemlord]

Your SHBG is probably below mid-range and you seem to convert a lot of T to E2. You need more frequent dosing, an 10-14mg daily or 25mg EOD protocol.

I found the AI game to be a no win scenario, I traded high estrogen for low estrogen using an AI and it gets old fast!

I see HCG causing more problems for the majority of men, especially for those that aromistate a lot.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks for your reply man.

No HCG now.

I inject daily (and have for over a month), and the labs were done in the morning before my injection.

SHBG I haven't measured since TRT, but has always been around 40, sometimes closer to 50.

I was considering getting some labs done early again just to make sure I'm headed in the right direction. That last round of labs probably saved me from really crashing my E2 to 0.

Ya so I would just stay on the ED injections, and see where your labs come back on 150mg/ week. You may need to drop the dose a bit, but see how you feel after 6 weeks on this protocol, and see how you feel. Your body could just be going through a big adjustment period with all the changes you’ve been making.

Do you think cutting out the HCG has anything to do with you feeling poorly? Did you cut it out around the time where the depression and everything started to really hit?

 

[smokedsalmon]

Do you think cutting out the HCG has anything to do with you feeling poorly? Did you cut it out around the time where the depression and everything started to really hit?

I’ve considered it and tried HCG again after but it always seems to make me anxious, jittery, and like I’m going to pop (don’t know if that’s from the BP increase or what). I’ve heard mixed things. I do think I’m calmer without it.

I’ve looked around for what other guys like or don’t like about how they feel on HCG, or how common either way is, and I haven’t turned up much for results. Was hoping to use that to help me separate daily ups and downs from potential side effects.

I’d say the depression really hit after lowering my dose and messing with the AI. Especially lowering the dose, it was a night and day decline.

 

[Vince]

My recommendation would be, inject 100 mg of testosterone cypionate once a week. Your shbg is high enough for weekly injections. Skip everything else, keep it simple and do labs in 6 to 12 weeks.

 

[smokedsalmon]

TRT can do wonders to HELP. It’s not the underlying issue.

Yes, you keep dicking around with your protocol and sabotage yourself.

A few weeks huh? That sounds like you aren’t taking your treatment seriously. Is it 2 or 22? You need to wait at least 6 weeks to decide if a protocol change is needed. Even at 6 weeks it’s just an indication. How you feel will change in weeks to come.

150/wk w no ai makes sense. Stick it out and stop try to determine if every little side effect is from TRT or not.

If I sound like an asshole it’s you sound frantic and feeling sorry for yourself. That’s not going to dig you out of a depression. Neither is a perfect TRT protocol. There are tons of guys out there who just feel tired with low T and a low libido. No mental health issues because nothing was pre-existing.

Appreciate the input. Sorry if I came off as feeling sorry for myself, I'm not expecting TRT to fix everything, but I've started to grow a little concerned just because so many of these issues are new to me. I felt much more like taking life by the horns before TRT, to put it one way.

Next bloodwork with Defy is in 1 month, so that should be perfect to see how it settles.

 

[smokedsalmon]

My recommendation would be, inject 100 mg of testosterone cypionate once a week. Your shbg is high enough for weekly injections. Skip everything else, keep it simple and do labs in 6 to 12 weeks.

Thanks Vince. Are there any advantages to fewer injections, besides convenience?

My logic was that I can better mitigate high E2, and possibly run more T by increasing injection frequency (even if I don't really have to).

 

[smokedsalmon]

The AI and changing doses just prolonged getting things worked out. I feel like absolute shit for a couple weeks after dropping a dose no matter what. Just the way it is. AI has me chasing being dialed in for years.

Just keep it at the eod injection totaling 150/wk and get those blood tests done at 6 weeks. I’d youa re doing pretty decent just wait another 6. If you feel like shit then make a change, but it’s not elevated e2. Elevated e2 will give symptoms initially but they will fade over time. Iirc it was 10 weeks or so when everything leveled off.

The guys telling you to take an ai are just plain wrong. Not sorry. If you require an ai on a TRT dose of test after many weeks of level hormone levels you’ve got a separate issue with the liver or metabolism.

Thanks Joe. Actually doing every day injections. Any disadvantage to that besides inconvenience?

Defy actually called today to remind me of some upcoming dates, and my next bloodwork is in exactly a month. So a perfect 6-7 weeks on this dosing.

I have zero interest in taking an AI if I can help it. What a nightmare that has been.

 

[Vince]

Thanks Vince. Are there any advantages to fewer injections, besides convenience?

My logic was that I can better mitigate high E2, and possibly run more T by increasing injection frequency (even if I don't really have to).

You definitely overused your AI. I wonder if you ever really needed one. To me it seems like 150 mg of testosterone may be too high and is that what's causing your issues.

 

[swoops36]

If the depression hit when you lowered your dose and started the AI, then raising the dose back up and dropping the AI might get you back to normal, right?

 

[smokedsalmon]

You definitely overused your AI. I wonder if you ever really needed one. To me it seems like 150 mg of testosterone may be too high and is that what's causing your issues.

Why do you say that? I do agree on the AI part though.

I was thinking it might be the opposite...once I dropped to 100mg, within a couple of weeks I was already down to a TT of 527. I forget the exact half life calculation, but that number should have dropped more if I'd stayed at 100mg for even longer. Might not make 150mg ideal, but I don't think it's way too much.

 

[smokedsalmon]

If the depression hit when you lowered your dose and started the AI, then raising the dose back up and dropping the AI might get you back to normal, right?

Exactly what I'm doing right now, and keeping on for the next several weeks until it settles this time!

And definitely no more AI. There's just no point.

 

[Vince]

Why do you say that? I do agree on the AI part though.

I was thinking it might be the opposite...once I dropped to 100mg, within a couple of weeks I was already down to a TT of 527. I forget the exact half life calculation, but that number should have dropped more if I'd stayed at 100mg for even longer. Might not make 150mg ideal, but I don't think it's way too much.

E follows T. Higher testosterone will give you higher estrogen. Get your estrogen under control and then worry about your increasing testosterone.

 

[smokedsalmon]

I haven’t encountered any downsides to daily injections other than the inconvenience over 2-3 years. I speculate I’d benefit from more e2 conversion from less frequent injections, but I’m dialed in so well I haven’t wanted to test that.

Estrogen acts as an antidepressant. I guess not everyone knows that.

I get depressed and anxious with low e2 as well. That’s due to having those issues before tanking e2. With TRT and depression it’s hard to say what’s the chicken and egg. I have observed that many people complain of zero mental sides of low T before jumping on. Others, like myself, did TRT primarily for the mental health improvements. I found out it’s WAY more complex than hormones, but you need that solid foundation to work through it all.

It’s a bad idea to focus on some drug as a cure for mental health issues imo. It’s a smaller piece of the pie chart. Important but not the biggest issue. It’s a way of thinking and reacting to things that creatives that negative loop which is depression.

Agreed that it's only one piece of the puzzle. I do tend to forget this at times. However, during the honeymoon period and even just before I started messing around with my protocol, I did consistently notice a lot of improvements mentally that gave me that much better foundation to work with.

For a short period (until I start messing around) I recall that a lot of the positive changes I work hard on from therapy and all that suddenly felt much more natural. I didn't feel like I had to "try" to be confident, calm, positive, etc when everything else was already going reasonably well around me. It was so noticeable at the time, I told my girlfriend that I felt like such a different person inside it was as though I didn't know myself anymore!

Contrasting to the honeymoon period, where I just felt like I was high on drugs, and enjoyed it by blasting music and crushing things at the gym. That was like being on adderall, it felt fun, but not natural or sustainable.

Hoping to get that earlier feeling back!

 

[Raindog]

TRT effects my mental health big time. I have ADHD, some mild depression and anxiety. Had an awesome honeymoon period- was beforfe I had an ADHD diagnosis and TRT initially made it go away. I didnt feel anxious, depressed or ADHD. These things slowly all came back, but to a much lower degree, except the ADHD which got worse. Ive gone up and down with T and E and how it effects my ADHD and the meds I take for it too. My meds react differently depending on my hormone levels. Sometimes it can feel like they dont work at all if I am not right hormonally. But mainly for me it is looking like I need highish test- in the 900's and mid range E in the 20's coupled with pregenolone. Low and high E is all bad. I inject .40 mg EOD. I get slightly high E at this level. Ive tried an AI and I drop to low, its too hard to figure out using an AI for me. I seem to be able to control it enough using a Chrysin lotion a local pharmacy made up. If I lower T to control E, I loose the feeling I can accomplish things, confidence sort of, more like "lets get this done now" thing, I get more worried generally (before TRT this was full blown anxiety w/ an occasionally panic attack), socially withdrawn... If I take the Pregnenolone out of my protocol ADHD meds do not work right (Guanfacine) and I get a subtle depression and socially withdrawn even at highish t levels. I take 25 mg. of OTC Pregnenolone every other day to maintain. It feels like it is a balance between Pregnenolone, E and T for me to feel good mentally.

Has anyone tried Chrysin lotion to control E? I havent seen much on this yet. I was skeptical, been only a couple weeks now, but I think its doing something... Will get some labs in a couple or few more weeks to see for sure....

 

[M.J]

Your SHBG is probably below mid-range and you seem to convert a lot of T to E2. You need more frequent dosing, an 10-14mg daily or 25mg EOD protocol.

I found the AI game to be a no win scenario, I traded high estrogen for low estrogen using an AI and it gets old fast!

I see HCG causing more problems for the majority of men, especially for those that aromistate a lot.

I would advice u give it another try, I can tell I am very sensitive Also like you, i mixed 4ml and now I went to 8 ml.
When I was using 0.1 (using the needle in the pic) it’s just one drop or two max I got my E around 15 to 20.

Now I went to half my dosage by increasing the mix to 8ml from vodka (I take it using the same needle so basically I filled this needle 8 times and mix it with one pill) And then also just use 0.1 from the needle.

Now I can feel I am higher a bit how much not sure. I am doing this to experiment a bit higher E , though I believe I shouldn’t take AI EOD I want to have a bigger swing in E it could help libido. Not stable E. Will try that later.

 

[BuzzSaw]

Nothing much to add, but another aspect to consider is low iron.

Mine is borderline low, so I suffer from derpression bad (amongst other symptoms), so dosing with iron helps a lot.

 

[smokedsalmon]

Nothing much to add, but another aspect to consider is low iron.

Mine is borderline low, so I suffer from derpression bad (amongst other symptoms), so dosing with iron helps a lot.

I actually tried this and it sent my iron too high! But good suggestion.