Complete apathy/depression from too high E2?

[E-Gen]

I started TRT 5 weeks ago on 24mg/day subcutaneous injections of Test C (168mg/week). My doc put me on a relatively high dose because my SHBG is very high (maybe 2-3 standard deviations out of range), so much so that despite having naturally high TT levels, my FT was in the dumpster all the way at the bottom of the range and I had all the symptoms of low T despite a pretty much perfect lifestyle.

I am lean (12-13% BF) and physically in shape (work out regularly). Low BP and heart rate, very high HDL and low LDL, all my other health markers are great. I'm 42yo.

I started out feeling good, motivated and focused for the first time in many years, but after 3 weeks or so I started feeling terrible again and even worse than I felt before TRT. I'm having suicidal thoughts, sleep 12 hours a day, am completely apathetic towards life and have crazy brain fog. I've lost interest in everything including sex, which is something I'm typically always excited about.

I asked my doc if it was possible I overshot my "good zone" and now have Test and E2 way too high, and he said my symptoms sound more like low Test and low E2, probably because my current dose doesn't even get me to where my TT was before TRT (it was very high), and because my SHBG is so high my FT is currently even lower than it was before TRT..

He recommended I bump up my dose to 30mg/day (210mg/week) and do blood tests in 3 weeks or so. Is it possible my symptoms are from high Test and high E2 instead of low Test and low E2? It seems apathy, fatigue and depression are usually signs of low E2 but I'm not sure. I'm thinking maybe I should just run tests myself monday and see where things are before tinkering anymore with my levels.

Any thoughts?

 

[Systemlord]

I asked my doc if it was possible I overshot my "good zone" and now have Test and E2 way too high, and he said my symptoms sound more like low Test and low E2, probably because my SHBG is so high that my current dose doesn't even get me to where my TT was before TRT (it was very high).

It takes 6 weeks for hormones to stabilize after starting TRT or after dosing changes, so blindly adjusting your protocol on how you feel or lab testing before 6 weeks is ill advised.

He recommended I bump up my dose to 30mg/day (210mg/week) and do blood tests in 3 weeks or so.

It doesn't seem your doc is well versed in TRT, doing labs at 3 weeks into a new protocol when it take 6 weeks to reach stable levels (build up in your bloodstream) doesn't make sense.

It seems apathy, fatigue and depression are usually signs of low E2 but I'm not sure.

Your hormones are in flux and your body is trying to reach homeostasis, to top it off you are in the process of shutting down the HPTA ceasing your natural production. There is a lot going on inside your body, you are going through what most of us have gone through ourselves and is perfectly normal.

 

[E-Gen]

Your hormones are in flux and your body is trying to reach homeostasis, to top it off you are in the process of shutting down the HPTA ceasing your natural production. There is a lot going on inside your body, you are going through what most of us have gone through ourselves and is perfectly normal.

You're right, I should probably just wait and get blood tests on this protocol. I just don't understand feeling so good initially and going from that to having zero energy whatsoever and being severely depressed, it seems a lot more extreme a variation than most accounts I've read about early TRT reactions.

 

[Gman86]

You're right, I should probably just wait and get blood tests on this protocol. I just don't understand feeling so good initially and going from that to having zero energy whatsoever and being severely depressed, it seems a lot more extreme a variation than most accounts I've read about early TRT reactions.

There’s a chance that ur levels are too low rn. Not saying that’s what’s going on, but there a chance. First few weeks u still have ur endogenous production, as well as the exogenous test that ur injecting. So for the first week or two ur levels were probably higher than before TRT. The 3rd week I would imagine ur endogenous levels are pretty shut down, and ur starting to run just off of the exogenous testosterone ur injecting. So just based off of when ur negative symptoms started occurring, there’s definitely a chance that u may just need to up ur dose, like ur doctor recommended. I would up ur dose and just see if symptoms get better or worse, and go from there.

 

[E-Gen]

There’s a chance that ur levels are too low rn. Not saying that’s what’s going on, but there a chance. First few weeks u still have ur endogenous production, as well as the exogenous test that ur injecting. So for the first week or two ur levels were probably higher than before TRT. The 3rd week I would imagine ur endogenous levels are pretty shut down, and ur starting to run just off of the exogenous testosterone ur injecting. So just based off of when ur negative symptoms started occurring, there’s definitely a chance that u may just need to up ur dose, like ur doctor recommended. I would up ur dose and just see if symptoms get better or worse, and go from there.

That's what it feels like to me, but is it really possible that 24mg/day isn't enough?

I'm thinking maybe because my SHBG is so high it could make sense. Before TRT my TT was 980ng/dL but my FT was 50pg/mL (range 45-225) and I felt absolutely terrible. I tested on 3 different occasions to make sure it wasn't a fluke and got the same kinds of results every time. So basically if my current dose isn't enough to get me to 1000ng/dL I'm going to feel worse than I did naturally.

My worry is that I move to 30mg/day and get gyno or something like that in just a few weeks. Is that a legitimate concern?
Depression I've dealt with before (divorce, no history of depression before that) and know how to manage it at these levels.

EDIT: I've seen research on this forum actually where natural production was completely shut down in TRT patients as early as 2 weeks into treatment, so that could make sense. Of course that's confounded by the fact that according to steroidplotter.com, concentrations of daily injected Test don't reach their peak until about 2 weeks...so basically i either have too much or too little right now, talk about a mindfuck. I have to say though i don't feel like I have too much that's for sure.

 

[Gman86]

That's what it feels like to me, but is it really possible that 24mg/day isn't enough?

I'm thinking maybe because my SHBG is so high it could make sense. Before TRT my TT was 980ng/dL but my FT was 50pg/mL (range 45-225) and I felt absolutely terrible. I tested on 3 different occasions to make sure it wasn't a fluke and got the same kinds of results every time. So basically if my current dose isn't enough to get me to 1000ng/dL I'm going to feel worse than I did naturally.

My worry is that I move to 30mg/day and get gyno or something like that in just a few weeks. Is that a legitimate concern?
Depression I've dealt with before (divorce, no history of depression before that) and know how to manage it at these levels.

EDIT: I've seen research on this forum actually where natural production was completely shut down in TRT patients as early as 2 weeks into treatment, so that could make sense. Of course that's confounded by the fact that according to steroidplotter.com, concentrations of daily injected Test don't reach their peak until about 2 weeks...so basically i either have too much or too little right now, talk about a mindfuck. I have to say though i don't feel like I have too much that's for sure.

What’s ur SHBG level at?

Ya it’s definitely possible that 168mg per week isn’t enough. It’s rare, but some people need 250mg-300mg/ week to get their levels in a healthy range. Again, very rare. Just saying everyone metabolizes testosterone differently. Checkout the TRT and hormone optimization YouTube channel and FB group. There’s 2 guys that run them. One of them is Danny Bossa, and I believe he needs at least 250mg of test to get his free T to the top of the range.

My numbers prior to TRT were somewhat close to urs. Total at close to 700c SHBG around 55, free T at the bottom of the range, and on another test below the bottom of the range. I felt absolutely horrible with those free T levels, despite having a pretty healthy total.

I’ve tried every protocol in the book. I started feeling better as soon as I got my free T up. Even when free T wasn’t optimal, I still felt better than pre HRT. For me, I’ve found that to feel my best, I need total T at least at 1600. Usually a bit higher. And I feel my best with free T in the mid 40’s in the labcorp range (8.7-25.1), and with quest I felt best when free T was around 398.2 (46.0-224.0).

Everyone’s different tho. But just wanted to show u that there’s a chance ur issues could be due to ur levels being too low. To achieve thise free at levels above, I needed 180mg of testosterone injected IM.

My current recommendation for u is to inject EOD, not ED. U can inject ED if u want, but with ur SHBG level it’s not necessary. I personally don’t notice a difference between the two, and my SHBG is currently around 35. I’d also switch to shallow IM injections. Subq, in the studies, shows that there is basically no difference between it and IM, and most guys do fine on SubQ, but there are some that just don’t feel good on SubQ. So I would just stick with what’s proven to work for the majority of men, and inject IM. U personally only have ever done IM into my thighs. Works for me. And lastly I would take ur doctors recommendation and inject around 200-210/ week, see how u feel, and get labs done in 6 weeks. There’s no point in getting labs done in 3 weeks after a protocol change. Testosterone cypionate takes around 5-6 weeks to reach steady state and stabilize, so that’s when u want to get labs.

 

[Cataceous]

Normal men produce 3-9 mg testosterone per day. You are taking 17. Accounting for a lack of diurnal variation puts your dose at effectively 14 mg, still quite high.

If you are not using an accurate free testosterone test—equilibrium dialysis or ultrafiltration—then you cannot rely on the results. The Tru-T calculator is a reasonable alternative, and it has a healthy normal range 16-31 ng/dL. Though not the last word, this calculator suggests that even with very high SHBG your total testosterone of 900-1,000 ng/dL should put free T well into the healthy range.

While initial stabilization of serum testosterone can take as much as four to six weeks, you may experience a reduction in SHBG over an even longer period. One effect of this is to lower total testosterone while free testosterone is static, assuming the same TRT dose pattern.

With your parameters I would get some basic blood work: testosterone, estradiol, SHBG and albumin. If free testosterone is high then I would go for a dose reduction and then a longer settling period. If free testosterone is a little low then I would just wait for further stabilization. Only if it's quite low would I consider an increase.

 

[E-Gen]

What’s ur SHBG level at?

Ya it’s definitely possible that 168mg per week isn’t enough. It’s rare, but some people need 250mg-300mg/ week to get their levels in a healthy range. Again, very rare. Just saying everyone metabolizes testosterone differently. Checkout the TRT and hormone optimization YouTube channel and FB group. There’s 2 guys that run them. One of them is Danny Bossa, and I believe he needs at least 250mg of test to get his free T to the top of the range.

My numbers prior to TRT were somewhat close to urs. Total at close to 700c SHBG around 55, free T at the bottom of the range, and on another test below the bottom of the range. I felt absolutely horrible with those free T levels, despite having a pretty healthy total.

I’ve tried every protocol in the book. I started feeling better as soon as I got my free T up. Even when free T wasn’t optimal, I still felt better than pre HRT. For me, I’ve found that to feel my best, I need total T at least at 1600. Usually a bit higher. And I feel my best with free T in the mid 40’s in the labcorp range (8.7-25.1), and with quest I felt best when free T was around 398.2 (46.0-224.0).

Everyone’s different tho. But just wanted to show u that there’s a chance ur issues could be due to ur levels being too low. To achieve thise free at levels above, I needed 180mg of testosterone injected IM.

My current recommendation for u is to inject EOD, not ED. U can inject ED if u want, but with ur SHBG level it’s not necessary. I personally don’t notice a difference between the two, and my SHBG is currently around 35. I’d also switch to shallow IM injections. Subq, in the studies, shows that there is basically no difference between it and IM, and most guys do fine on SubQ, but there are some that just don’t feel good on SubQ. So I would just stick with what’s proven to work for the majority of men, and inject IM. U personally only have ever done IM into my thighs. Works for me. And lastly I would take ur doctors recommendation and inject around 200-210/ week, see how u feel, and get labs done in 6 weeks. There’s no point in getting labs done in 3 weeks after a protocol change. Testosterone cypionate takes around 5-6 weeks to reach steady state and stabilize, so that’s when u want to get labs.

My SHBG was at 80 before starting TRT, out of a range of 20-55.

When you inject into your thighs, what syringe do you use? One reason I started out doing SubQ is that I was worried about scar tissue over the long term, so I've been using 30G 5/16'' 0.3cc insulin syringes. 5/16'' is really short but might be enough for shallow IM in thighs, or do I need something like 1/2'' needles? I'm pretty lean and pinch the fat of my upper thigh to do SubQ, even with the 5/16'' needle.

Do you think I should bump my dose and switch to shallow IM at the same time or take a one variable at a time kind of approach? I'm thinking if I change both at the same time and end up feeling better I might not know what did it.

And is my fear of getting gyno in just a few weeks irrational?

 

[Vince]

My SHBG was at 80 before starting TRT, out of a range of 20-55. That's why despite almost 1000ng/dL my Free T was completely shot and I was feeling terrible.

When you inject into your thighs, what syringe do you use? One reason I started out doing SubQ is that I was worried about scar tissue over the long term, so I've been using 30G 5/16'' 0.3cc insulin syringes. 5/16'' is really short but might be enough for shallow IM in thighs, or do I need something like 1/2'' needles? I'm pretty lean and pinch the fat of my upper thigh to do SubQ, even with the 5/16'' needle.

Do you think I should bump my dose and switch to shallow IM at the same time or take a one variable at a time kind of approach? I'm thinking if I change both at the same time and end up feeling better I might not know what did it.

I inject daily testosterone and hcg twice a week in my shoulders and VG. For both testosterone (with grapeseed oil) and HCG, I use an easy touch 29g half inch syringe.

Best testosterone injection site, no aspiration needed, avoids all nerves

Personally I think your dose too high, I would use 16 mg daily and adjust from there.

 

[E-Gen]

I inject daily testosterone and hcg twice a week in my shoulders and VG. For both testosterone (with grapeseed oil) and HCG, I use an easy touch 29g half inch syringe.

Best testosterone injection site, no aspiration needed, avoids all nerves

Personally I think your dose too high, I would use 16 mg daily and adjust from there.

Thanks for the link. Do you think I could need a higher dose because I'm not using hCG though? Wouldn't hCG make it the equivalent for you of a much higher dose than 16mg/day because you have your natural production on top of the exogenous Test?

 

[E-Gen]

Normal men produce 3-9 mg testosterone per day. You are taking 17. Accounting for a lack of diurnal variation puts your dose at effectively 14 mg, still quite high.

If you are not using an accurate free testosterone test—equilibrium dialysis or ultrafiltration—then you cannot rely on the results. The Tru-T calculator is a reasonable alternative, and it has a healthy normal range 16-31 ng/dL. Though not the last word, this calculator suggests that even with very high SHBG your total testosterone of 900-1,000 ng/dL should put free T well into the healthy range.

While initial stabilization of serum testosterone can take as much as four to six weeks, you may experience a reduction in SHBG over an even longer period. One effect of this is to lower total testosterone while free testosterone is static, assuming the same TRT dose pattern.

With your parameters I would get some basic blood work: testosterone, estradiol, SHBG and albumin. If free testosterone is high then I would go for a dose reduction and then a longer settling period. If free testosterone is a little low then I would just wait for further stabilization. Only if it's quite low would I consider an increase.

Thanks. I just checked and Free T was determined using the Direct method. I'm going to get the equilibrium dialysis test from discountedlabs and check that one.

 

[Gman86]

My SHBG was at 80 before starting TRT, out of a range of 20-55.

When you inject into your thighs, what syringe do you use? One reason I started out doing SubQ is that I was worried about scar tissue over the long term, so I've been using 30G 5/16'' 0.3cc insulin syringes. 5/16'' is really short but might be enough for shallow IM in thighs, or do I need something like 1/2'' needles? I'm pretty lean and pinch the fat of my upper thigh to do SubQ, even with the 5/16'' needle.

Do you think I should bump my dose and switch to shallow IM at the same time or take a one variable at a time kind of approach? I'm thinking if I change both at the same time and end up feeling better I might not know what did it.

And is my fear of getting gyno in just a few weeks irrational?

I personally don’t think u should worry about getting gyno at all with ur high SHBG. Only time I’ve ever started to get gyno was on HCG monotherapy. On testosterone, no matter how high my E2 got, even when it got up to 90, I didn’t even have so much as sensitive nipples. On testosterone I’ve never experienced anything even remotely close to getting gyno. I wouldn’t be concerned at all if I were u.

I’ve always ever used 27 gauge 1/2” 1cc insulin syringes. I just ordered 28 gauge tho, and will see if they draw up fine. I’ve tried using my 29 gauge syringes, that I have for HCG, and the testosterone just draws up way too slow for me. I’m hoping 28 gauge is the sweetspot. 1/2” needles have been good for injecting into my thighs. I actually wanted to go to 3/4” or 1” needles, just to make sure I’m getting fully into the muscle, and nothing is leaking into my fat, but once u go longer than 1/2”, u have to get syringes with needles that twist off, and I only want to use syringes that are one unit. I wouldn’t go shorter than 1/2” tho. No scar tissue for me, and I’ve been injecting ED or EOD for 3-4 years now in my thighs only. They’re such big muscles that I rotate injecting all over them, and inject in the same spots so rarely that I just don’t experience any scar tissue, at least that I’m aware of. It’s just super convenient. I sit down, and inject testosterone in one and nandrolone in the other, and do that EOD.

I would probably switch to IM, and stay on ur current dose, and see if u feel any better. If not, I would then get ur total and free T tested, see where ur levels are at, and up ur dose if needed.

 

[madman]

I started TRT 5 weeks ago on 24mg/day subcutaneous injections of Test C (168mg/week). My doc put me on a relatively high dose because my SHBG is very high (maybe 2-3 standard deviations out of range), so much so that despite having naturally high TT levels, my FT was in the dumpster all the way at the bottom of the range and I had all the symptoms of low T despite a pretty much perfect lifestyle.

I am lean (12-13% BF) and physically in shape (work out regularly). Low BP and heart rate, very high HDL and low LDL, all my other health markers are great. I'm 42yo.

I started out feeling good, motivated and focused for the first time in many years, but after 3 weeks or so I started feeling terrible again and even worse than I felt before TRT. I'm having suicidal thoughts, sleep 12 hours a day, am completely apathetic towards life and have crazy brain fog. I've lost interest in everything including sex, which is something I'm typically always excited about.

I asked my doc if it was possible I overshot my "good zone" and now have Test and E2 way too high, and he said my symptoms sound more like low Test and low E2, probably because my current dose doesn't even get me to where my TT was before TRT (it was very high), and because my SHBG is so high my FT is currently even lower than it was before TRT..

He recommended I bump up my dose to 30mg/day (210mg/week) and do blood tests in 3 weeks or so. Is it possible my symptoms are from high Test and high E2 instead of low Test and low E2? It seems apathy, fatigue and depression are usually signs of low E2 but I'm not sure. I'm thinking maybe I should just run tests myself monday and see where things are before tinkering anymore with my levels.

Any thoughts?

First off when starting trt there is a lot going on as not only will your hpta eventually shutdown (2-6 weeks) depending on the dose of T used as higher doses 200+mg/week will result in quicker shutdown (2 weeks) and lower doses 100mg/week complete shutdown will take longer.

Top it off with the fact that your hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until levels stabilize (4-6 weeks) and depending on the individual let alone starting dose of trt it is common for some men to experience ups/downs during the transition whereas many others will experience what we call the HONEYMOON phase where you feel almost euphoric due to the dopamine rush and hormone levels rising but it is short-lived and temporary as the body will eventually adapt.

Even then once blood levels stabilize (4-6 weeks) it will take 2-3 months for the body to adapt to the new level and this is the time when one should TRULY gauge how they feel regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms/overall well-being.

Too many make the mistake of gauging how they feel during the first 6 weeks of trt when the hpta is in the process of shutting down and serum levels of testosterone are in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels stabilize.

Why your doctor would start you off on daily injections is beyond me seeing as you have high SHBG and higher doses of T injected less frequently as in once weekly would have a stronger impact on driving down SHBG and even than in many cases we are talking 200+mg/week.

c-17 alpha-alkylated orals will have the biggest impact on hammering down SHBG

Depending on the protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) some men may notice a larger drop in SHBG but there are many who will not see any significant reduction.

I inject 150mg/week (75mg every 3.5 days) pre-trt my SHBG was 34 nmol/L and as of now (3.5 yrs on trt) it has always hovered around 30-32 nmol/L.

If anything you should have started off with once-weekly injections or twice weekly (every 3.5 days) injections.

Before making any rash decisions you need to stick to your current protocol and have blood work done within the next week to truly see where said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) has your TT/FT/e2 let alone RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit and then decide whether a slight dose increase is needed.

Sure how you feel may be terrible but again it is horrible advice to increase your dose when you have absolutely no F***ing idea where such protocol has your T levels.

Your doctor is a complete idiot for recommending a dose increase when you have no idea where your levels sit on your current protocol (24mg daily) as you have not had blood work done yet let alone going from 160mg/week (24mg daily) to 210mg/week (30mg/daily) and getting blood work 3 weeks later when your hormones will still be in FLUX!

Labs are critical and should always be done 6 weeks after starting trt or anytime a protocol is tweaked (dose/injection frequency).

Not only are we looking at labs to see where said protocol (dose/injection frequency) has your TT/FT/e2 levels but to make sure other blood markers are in a healthy range and to avoid/minimize any potential side-effects.

Sure treating symptoms is what truly matters but where your TT/FT serum levels sit is still important as yes there is such a thing as running too high of a level on trt and although the ultimate goal is to provide relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well-being keeping blood markers healthy long-term and avoiding/minimizing any potential side-effects is key.

Most men do well with FT in the 20-30 ng/dL range and some feel better running slightly higher levels.

Regardless of high SHBG even with a TT 1200-1000 ng/dL you should easily be able to achieve an FT in the top end.

Forget the mumbo jumbo spewed on some of the other forums that men need a TT 1600-2000 ng/dL and FT 50-60 ng/dL range to experience the beneficial effects of trt.

Trough levels are critical.

Do understand that most healthy young males have an average TT 600 ng/dL, SHBG 30-35nmol/L, and an FT around 20 ng/dL.

You should easily be able to achieve a healthy FT level in the top end 30 ng/dL with a TT 1200-1000 ng/dL even with higher SHBG.

When it comes down to testing FT forget about relying on the direct immunoassay and you should be getting the most accurate assay such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best) if you truly want to know where your FT level sits.

500726: Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences) | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences)

www.labcorp.com

reference range 52−280 pg/mL ( 5.2-28.0 ng/dL)

070038: Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS

www.labcorp.com

reference range 5.00-21.00 ng/dL



Notice the top end of the reference ranges roughly 20-30 ng/dL.

Sound familiar.

Most doctors in the know would tell you that most patients do well having FT in the 20-30 ng/dL range and many aim for the higher end.

Is there anything wrong with running higher levels.....absolutely not if blood markers are in a healthy range and you feel well overall but even than doubtful one would need levels in the 50-60ng/dL range.

Many of these same men claiming to need to run very high levels to benefit can have underlying issues dysfunctional thyroid/adrenals.

Let me put it this way most hypogonadal men have TT <300 ng/dL or 600-700 ng/dL (high SHBG) with low/sub-par FT.

FT of 5-9 ng/dL would be considered low and even then many can still experience low-t symptoms with slightly higher levels.

Taking a hypogonadal man from low/sub-par FT to levels of 20-30 ng/dL would have a huge impact on relieving/improving low-t symptoms.

You need LABS!

 

[Vince]

Thanks for the link. Do you think I could need a higher dose because I'm not using hCG though? Wouldn't hCG make it the equivalent for you of a much higher dose than 16mg/day because you have your natural production on top of the exogenous Test?

No, for daily injections 16 mg is a good dose even for your high shbg. I would start there and have labs in 6 weeks.
Any reason why you aren’t using hcg?

 

[sv1000]

I started TRT 5 weeks ago on 24mg/day subcutaneous injections of Test C (168mg/week). My doc put me on a relatively high dose because my SHBG is very high (maybe 2-3 standard deviations out of range), so much so that despite having naturally high TT levels, my FT was in the dumpster all the way at the bottom of the range and I had all the symptoms of low T despite a pretty much perfect lifestyle.

I am lean (12-13% BF) and physically in shape (work out regularly). Low BP and heart rate, very high HDL and low LDL, all my other health markers are great. I'm 42yo.

I started out feeling good, motivated and focused for the first time in many years, but after 3 weeks or so I started feeling terrible again and even worse than I felt before TRT. I'm having suicidal thoughts, sleep 12 hours a day, am completely apathetic towards life and have crazy brain fog. I've lost interest in everything including sex, which is something I'm typically always excited about.

I asked my doc if it was possible I overshot my "good zone" and now have Test and E2 way too high, and he said my symptoms sound more like low Test and low E2, probably because my current dose doesn't even get me to where my TT was before TRT (it was very high), and because my SHBG is so high my FT is currently even lower than it was before TRT..

He recommended I bump up my dose to 30mg/day (210mg/week) and do blood tests in 3 weeks or so. Is it possible my symptoms are from high Test and high E2 instead of low Test and low E2? It seems apathy, fatigue and depression are usually signs of low E2 but I'm not sure. I'm thinking maybe I should just run tests myself monday and see where things are before tinkering anymore with my levels.

Any thoughts?

I had to log in for this one. First you have to get blood work before making changes.You really want to know exactly what your changing and why, try not to guess because using cyp your changes may take a week or so before you notice a real difference. Elevated e2 can cause those thoughts as well as low test but since your putting test in your body everyday, how low could it be? that it would cause those thoughts? nobody can tell you that. but labs can give you an idea. I would lower the dose before i raised it. but not without labwork.

I have high natural test well normal it was 770 but my free T was 12.5 because my shbg was 65. no dr would put me on trt. So i'm on my own using test prop, but i started out too high i was at 24 mg daily, the first 2 weeks i felt like king kong then bam i was sleepy tired foggy head back to where i was, i lowered and lowered all the way to 10mg daily, that was a bit too low so now im at 14-15mg daily. I feel good but i want to add hcg to backfill those pathways a bit then ill start on dhea and pregnenalone.

good luck to you

 

[ryan98366]

E-Gen: I feel for you. I was started out at a super high dose too. 200 mg at week. I felt horrible the entire time. Very similar bad symptoms as you. Sounds like too high of free test or too high E2.

I agree with one of the posters that twice a week injections work best for new people.

My two cents: It is best to start new men LOW and SLOW. Not a high dose first. I found that out the hard way and it sucked going down. I am currently on 18 mg daily injections and two clicks of 200mg testosterone cream daily.

You should wait for 6 weeks, get new labs drawn and then discuss with your doctor and make changes. Given your symptoms, you need to call your doctor ASAP and discuss. I would not wait to call him with those bad symptoms.