First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry

[Seagal]

@BigTex how did you front-load TU?
I used weekly 125mg as an example for the plots. I don't know what oil is used in my TU.

 

[BigTex]

@BigTex how did you front-load TU?
I used weekly 125mg as an example for the plots. I don't know what oil is used in my TU.

Yes I did. I was using maybe 25mg of test base/d made as a transdermal.

 

[RotnGun]

Or how about this one. Most men just want to feel good on trt. And for majority of them 100mg or less doesn’t cut it.

And anyone using testosterone alone for bodybuilding is not using doses that low. 200mg a week will work ok using other anabolics. Or for maintaining what they have, from getting big with other compounds. This post is way off base.

Well, what about this. Take a non hypogonadal guy with a total test level of 700ng/dl. If that guy can do away with an AI, Erectile dysfunction medication, finasteride and DHT blockers, and not donate blood, then should a guy on TRT not be able to do the same thing? None of us here had to use AI's or ED drugs or donate blood before starting TRT. I've noticed that most guys on this forum who do have problems on TRT seem to be taking 120mg a week or more of test a week. So I don't get how a guy can feel better on 120mg a week when that guy has to take an AI or ED medication and donate blood.

Also, there is another mistake I notice guys doing while on TRT. I can't remember who it was, but someone (maybe it was @Cataceous ) stated on this forum that it is a bad ideal to inject test every other day or E3D, or twice a week. The reason this person gave was that if you inject lets say 80mg test c per week,,, injecting 40mg every 3.5 days, then that 40mg of test c injection can break down fast (dependent on metabolism and SHBG level) at the injection site an cause an "over dose" of test c into the body. The body is not meant to accomodate 40mg of test in one day. When 40mg is injected at once, then this is where problems can arise. The body can just handle up 10mg of test in one day. This is why this one member here was advocating to do daily injections as a means to avoid side effects. And this same member was saying that the free test level does increase when doing daily injects. If people want to avoid side effects on TRT, then a lower dose should be implemented divided into daily injects.

 

[Charliebizz]

Well, what about this. Take a non hypogonadal guy with a total test level of 700ng/dl. If that guy can do away with an AI, Erectile dysfunction medication, finasteride and DHT blockers, and not donate blood, then should a guy on TRT not be able to do the same thing? None of us here had to use AI's or ED drugs or donate blood before starting TRT. I've noticed that most guys on this forum who do have problems on TRT seem to be taking 120mg a week or more of test a week. So I don't get how a guy can feel better on 120mg a week when that guy has to take an AI or ED medication and donate blood.

Also, there is another mistake I notice guys doing while on TRT. I can't remember who it was, but someone (maybe it was @Cataceous ) stated on this forum that it is a bad ideal to inject test every other day or E3D, or twice a week. The reason this person gave was that if you inject lets say 80mg test c per week,,, injecting 40mg every 3.5 days, then that 40mg of test c injection can break down fast (dependent on metabolism and SHBG level) at the injection site an cause an "over dose" of test c into the body. The body is not meant to accomodate 40mg of test in one day. When 40mg is injected at once, then this is where problems can arise. The body can just handle up 10mg of test in one day. This is why this one member here was advocating to do daily injections as a means to avoid side effects. And this same member was saying that the free test level does increase when doing daily injects. If people want to avoid side effects on TRT, then a lower dose should be implemented divided into daily injects.

Most guys that have trouble with trt are ones on forums. The over thinkers and the over researchers. The ones that consistently try to find the magical “sweet spot” for e2. Because they have a transient sensation of burning nipples. Or water retention. Or slight rise in hct. The list can go on and on. We do have a small number of men that do have issues with the excipients in testosterone formulations and so on @FunkOdyssey has shed plenty of light on that topic. And those issues have men thinking it’s the actual testosterone causing issue. But once you get outside these forum walls you see most men doing well on trt are on 120mg and up. Doing 1-2 injections a week max. With no a.i or hcg. What you see here is a small percentage of possible “ outliers” and “overthinkers” or guys with more then just low testosterone as the issue.

 

[TLR]

Well, what about this. Take a non hypogonadal guy with a total test level of 700ng/dl. If that guy can do away with an AI, Erectile dysfunction medication, finasteride and DHT blockers, and not donate blood, then should a guy on TRT not be able to do the same thing? None of us here had to use AI's or ED drugs or donate blood before starting TRT. I've noticed that most guys on this forum who do have problems on TRT seem to be taking 120mg a week or more of test a week. So I don't get how a guy can feel better on 120mg a week when that guy has to take an AI or ED medication and donate blood.

Also, there is another mistake I notice guys doing while on TRT. I can't remember who it was, but someone (maybe it was @Cataceous ) stated on this forum that it is a bad ideal to inject test every other day or E3D, or twice a week. The reason this person gave was that if you inject lets say 80mg test c per week,,, injecting 40mg every 3.5 days, then that 40mg of test c injection can break down fast (dependent on metabolism and SHBG level) at the injection site an cause an "over dose" of test c into the body. The body is not meant to accomodate 40mg of test in one day. When 40mg is injected at once, then this is where problems can arise. The body can just handle up 10mg of test in one day. This is why this one member here was advocating to do daily injections as a means to avoid side effects. And this same member was saying that the free test level does increase when doing daily injects. If people want to avoid side effects on TRT, then a lower dose should be implemented divided into daily injects.

I agree that the stable levels seen with more frequent injections looks better on paper and “should” theoretically be better….but clinically there are MANY men who don’t feel as good with more frequent injections…I’m not about to try to explain why because I don’t know (and I’d be cautious to believe someone who says they do)….

 

[Charliebizz]

I agree that the stable levels seen with more frequent injections looks better on paper and “should” theoretically be better….but clinically there are MANY men who don’t feel as good with more frequent injections…I’m not about to try to explain why because I don’t know (and I’d be cautious to believe someone who says they do)….

From all my years on the forums. Seems like most men that do well only need 1-2x a week injections. Again a few outliers but it’s far from the norm to need more. And that’s from many of the drs that participate in forums and groups also.

 

[jmbb]

I also suffered the same problems with a different ester and that was an important part of how I figured this all out for myself: nasty symptoms with cypionate and compounded propionate (both containing BB/BA), absence of symptoms with cream and BB/BA-free enanthate.

So I totally forgot about this conversation the last few weeks. I have been using empower test e (ba only) for a few months. Instead of opening a new vial, I was like "oh I have an open vial of cyp, let me finish this first."

By the next day i was feeling a weird anxiety that has persisted since Thursday and nocturnal erections were weak. I'm relatively lean and noticed I'm holding water under my skin.

I can't imagine it being placebo as I completely forgot we even talked about this.

 

[Ateam2024]

I feel great with injections twice a week it helps me from the dip in t its better for me personally not to go through the dips in t levels steady state at steady level no brainer

 

[Pnw0031]

I also suffered the same problems with a different ester and that was an important part of how I figured this all out for myself: nasty symptoms with cypionate and compounded propionate (both containing BB/BA), absence of symptoms with cream and BB/BA-free enanthate.

Anyone know if Empower can do custom blends of propionate with a different preservative? I felt the absolute best mentally and libido wise on prop but the same insomnia and hyper stimulation as you Funk. I know I’m allergic to BB/BA like you

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Anyone know if Empower can do custom blends of propionate with a different preservative? I felt the absolute best mentally and libido wise on prop but the same insomnia and hyper stimulation as you Funk. I know I’m allergic to BB/BA like you

The easiest way is to ask them. Send them an email. Also allergic or sensitive to BB/BA. They seem to use BA as the preservative in all their injectables. We get it; it's standardized for all their products and it's probably less expensive. But for one of the major compounding pharmacies in the US, you would think they'd do everything to minimize negative reactions or offer an alternate preservative or even the carrier oil.

Men and women use compounding pharmacies because they have specific needs or requirements. It's not as if Empower's products are low priced. To compare, for rx Hikma Test Enanthate, I pay $67 per vial. When I was prescribed Empower Test P several years ago, it was $57 per vial, IIRC. And the raw products are imported from China, which means savings. I believe China is probably the main supplier of raw steroid powders for most of the world.

I'm not dumping on Empower and probably the majority who use their injectable testosterone(s) or anabolic steroids have no problems but they seem not to go out of their way to accommodate those of us who have specific sensitivities or allergies.

 

[Pnw0031]

The easiest way is to ask them. Send them an email. Also allergic or sensitive to BB/BA. They seem to use BA as the preservative in all their injectables. We get it; it's standardized for all their products and it's probably less expensive. But for one of the major compounding pharmacies in the US, you would think they'd do everything to minimize negative reactions or offer an alternate preservative or even the carrier oil.

Men and women use compounding pharmacies because they have specific needs or requirements. It's not as if Empower's products are low priced. To compare, for rx Hikma Test Enanthate, I pay $67 per vial. When I was prescribed Empower Test P several years ago, it was $57 per vial, IIRC. And the raw products are imported from China, which means savings. I believe China is probably the main supplier of raw steroid powders for most of the world.

I'm not dumping on Empower and probably the majority who use their injectable testosterone(s) or anabolic steroids have no problems but they seem not to go out of their way to accommodate those of us who have specific sensitivities or allergies.

Defy medical does work with a handful of other pharmacies, I can ask around if anyone has the list of pharmacies they work with. I’m on cream now which works better and less side effects but the libido on prop was absolutely insanity. Even with the higher dht I haven’t been able to replicate it with cream

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I think enanthate is the only ester that will dissolve readily in oil at reasonably high concentrations. They need to add benzyl benzoate as a solvent to assist other esters like cypionate and propionate. It may be the case, for example, that without BB in the formula, you would max out at 50 mg/ml concentration for propionate or 100 mg/ml for cypionate. This is why you cannot find cypionate or propionate anywhere, made by anyone, without benzyl benzoate in the formula.

If you are affected negatively by BB this makes enanthate fundamentally superior as an ester for TRT.

 

[Pnw0031]

I think enanthate is the only ester that will dissolve readily in oil at reasonably high concentrations. They need to add benzyl benzoate as a solvent to assist other esters like cypionate and propionate. It may be the case, for example, that without BB in the formula, you would max out at 50 mg/ml concentration for propionate or 100 mg/ml for cypionate. This is why you cannot find cypionate or propionate anywhere, made by anyone, without benzyl benzoate in the formula.

Seems you’re right, prop has a melting point of 118-123 °C according to google. It does dissolve well in ethanol.

I wonder why propionate feels the best for me mood and libido wise despite the insomnia it causes. I’m on cream which theoretically should match prop’s quick action. Cyp felt awful and I think it inhibited my thyroid function. Any thoughts as to why prop feels the best?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Seems you’re right, prop has a melting point of 118-123 °C according to google. It does dissolve well in ethanol.

I wonder why propionate feels the best for me mood and libido wise despite the insomnia it causes. I’m on cream which theoretically should match prop’s quick action. Cyp felt awful and I think it inhibited my thyroid function. Any thoughts as to why prop feels the best?

Cream is similar to propionate in terms of the degree of fluctuation across the day but the ratio of hormones it produces is quite different. You might respond better to the more physiologic DHT/E2 ratio of propionate versus the heavily DHT-skewed ratio with cream. If you wanted to make the cream behave more propionate-like, maybe you could try applying somewhere non-scrotal with less 5-alpha reductase.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Defy medical does work with a handful of other pharmacies, I can ask around if anyone has the list of pharmacies they work with. I’m on cream now which works better and less side effects but the libido on prop was absolutely insanity. Even with the higher dht I haven’t been able to replicate it with cream

That's good that they work with other pharmacies. I didn't find propionate as great as I'd read. For me, in general, with messed up sleep and circadian rhythms, I've found I get a better response with enanthate if I inject anywhere between noon and 6 p.m. When I was on cream, I took it in the morning, applying it to the armpits. Improved my mood and energy but not erectile function. 2 pumps/10%. I might discuss going back on cream in a few months with my urologist if 100 mg enanthate IM 2X weekly doesn't shake things up, particularly, my never ending depression.

P.S.: Love the profile pic. We have a tuxedo that looks the same. She's 8 years old and looks like a kitten.

 

[Pnw0031]

That's good that they work with other pharmacies. I didn't find propionate as great as I'd read. For me, in general, with messed up sleep and circadian rhythms, I've found I get a better response with enanthate if I inject anywhere between noon and 6 p.m. When I was on cream, I took it in the morning, applying it to the armpits. Improved my mood and energy but not erectile function. 2 pumps/10%. I might discuss going back on cream in a few months with my urologist if 100 mg enanthate IM 2X weekly doesn't shake things up, particularly, my never ending depression.

P.S.: Love the profile pic. We have a tuxedo that looks the same. She's 8 years old and looks like a kitten.

I think I’m going to try what funk said to do with cream, I’m not a heavy duty aromatizer and I admittedly haven’t gotten e2 measured since starting cream. Even on high dose cyp- the supposedly most aromatizing ester- my estrogen never got above 35. If the eth doesn’t work for you, you might want to try doing both cream and injection. If splitting cream between shoulder and scrotum doesn’t work for me, I think that’s exactly what I’ll do. This guy on Reddit I spoke to does 2 pumps of the 20% cream on the scrotum and 3x weekly shots of eth.

I had the exact same sleep issues with prop but the libido and energy were wild! I really wish I was able to make that work, but BA and I are not friends it seems.

And thank you! Unfortunately it’s not my cat, I think I saw him on Twitter a while back. It's the nicest, most polite looking cat I’ve ever seen. Growing up I had a Maine coon and a tuxedo and they were the biggest goofballs ever.

 

[Pnw0031]

Cream is similar to propionate in terms of the degree of fluctuation across the day but the ratio of hormones it produces is quite different. You might respond better to the more physiologic DHT/E2 ratio of propionate versus the heavily DHT-skewed ratio with cream. If you wanted to make the cream behave more propionate-like, maybe you could try applying somewhere non-scrotal with less 5-alpha reductase.

I’m going to try to replicate the prop feel by splitting it on shoulders and scrotum. You’re definitely on to something with the DHT/E2 ratio. I’m not a heavy duty aromatizer (for better or for worse). E2 labs it is then. I really, really wish prop wouldn’t cause me insomnia because it felt the best and it would be so much easier. Damn you benzyl alcohol!

 

[Gman86]

I’m going to try to replicate the prop feel by splitting it on shoulders and scrotum. You’re definitely on to something with the DHT/E2 ratio. I’m not a heavy duty aromatizer (for better or for worse). E2 labs it is then. I really, really wish prop wouldn’t cause me insomnia because it felt the best and it would be so much easier. Damn you benzyl alcohol!

How often were u injecting prop? And u were injecting IM I assume?

 

[Pnw0031]

How often were u injecting prop? And u were injecting IM I assume?

Every morning IM, I would try EOD if I can’t get cream to feel the same but I think it might simply be too much dht crashing e2. We shall see.
Again I wish I could be prop’s biggest fan but it messes with sleep just the same as cyp did. The day someone makes prop without BA will be a 3 day feast

 

[Gman86]

Every morning IM, I would try EOD if I can’t get cream to feel the same but I think it might simply be too much dht crashing e2. We shall see.
Again I wish I could be prop’s biggest fan but it messes with sleep just the same as cyp did. The day someone makes prop without BA will be a 3 day feast

U really think the sleep issue can’t be overcome with the prop? I’ve been on empowers prop before, and slept fine. But then again I’ve never had sleep issues while on any form of test, or any AAS.

Have u tried using red light blocking glasses 2-4 hours prior to going to sleep?

Not eating 3-4 hours before sleep?

Taking a quality magnesium supplement?

Getting sunlight in ur eyes as soon as u wake up for at least 5 minutes?

I try to do all those things the best that I can, and I never have any sleep issues. Maybe give them a shot if u haven’t. They make a difference

And I understand that u don’t have sleep issues off of the prop, so clearly the prop is having a negative effect on ur sleep, but u’d be surprised how things can affect u differently, depending on the state that ur body is is. I would say give a few things a shot before giving up on prop just yet. Sounds like u felt great on it otherwise