Experiences and Questions: Personal Experiments with Oral Native Testosterone Base & Enclomiphene (TRT+), Testosterone Propionate, HCG and more

[Guided_by_Voices]

Ah yeah in your thread I also found viagra for cardiovascular health. Interesting. Can you recommend? This lowers blood pressure?

In general, poor health is accompanied by a decline in Nitric Oxide production. The Viagra class of drugs blocks an enzyme that breaks down nitric oxide so it indirectly increases Nitric Oxide if someone is producing good amounts in the first place. Dr. Kendrick points out that these drugs far outperform statins for cardiovascular health, however that gets no publicity from mainstream medicine.

Many people in poor health lack sufficient amounts of the enzyme that produces Nitric Oxide however so viagra is ineffective. Nitric oxide tablets (I use the ones from N1o1.com) or Beetroot powder which I also use can help raise Nitric Oxide, but overall good health and especially HIIT training is also critical. You can listen to the podcasts and videos by Dr. Nathan Bryan for a good summary. He has a recent podcast at Daveasprey.com for example.

I think Nitric Oxide in general lowers blood pressure but it does lots of other things as well. I think remember that cialis/viagra can lower blood pressure but that is not a permanent fix for the causes of high blood pressure in the first place.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Another quick update: my propionate ran out today, there might be a tiny amount left, but not even 20 mg. My supplier hasn’t delivered yet. What I have on hand is native testosterone (so I could make a topical) and testosterone cypionate. I’m debating whether to start the cypionate now or try the topical, and I’m not sure what dose I’d need for cypionate. And how to transition.

I would vote cypionate, and there is no special transition method required. Just start it at the dose you plan to use. You will reach 80+ % of the final steady state levels very quickly.

 

[dirkdigglr]

ended up using the dht topical. Actually I liked the effect. gave me some buzz. had plenty of energy. actually a bit addictive. when using propionate before felt stressfull sometimes and emotionally a bit blocked. but not sure if it was because i was working all day when at home and using propionate and then while travelling there was this exciting environment. I read the e2 raises less with scrotal topical. so maybe there is a difference in amount of dht and e2 compared to propionate...

did you end up using the injectable dht enanthate? what was your experience?

 

[dirkdigglr]

I would stay on enclomiphene and use 500 IU hCG twice or three times per week, and drop everything else. Too many variables in your experiment!

with that protocol (adding hcg) how would you handle high estrogen and shbg in that case? when using 6mg enclomiphene every 3 days I had high shbg, but estrogen was still in reference range. Also what would be benefit of hcg added to enclomiphene?

• Estradiol (E2): 43.6 pg/ml
• SHBG: 80.5 nmol/l
  
  

 

[dirkdigglr]

If you do happen to run peak labs, you're going to see some shocking numbers that may bias you towards a dose reduction. 20 mg of test prop daily with hCG on top is no joke. On 19 mg of test prop without hCG, I had 1800+ ng/dL total T, 49 ng/dL free T, and 56 pg/mL E2 at peak.

yeah way too high.

Hormone Panel Comparison​

Most recent test on 20th october 2025 (+6 hours after injection of 20mg propionate and 150IUs hcg)

• Total Testosterone: >52.0 nmol/L (cut off at around 1500ng/dL)(Ref. 12.0 – 30.0) → High
• Free Testosterone: 58.47 pg/mL (Ref. 7.00 – 22.70) → High
• Estradiol (E2): 67.6 pg/mL (Ref. 11.3 – 43.2) → High
• SHBG: 43.9 nmol/L (Ref. 18.3 – 54.1) → Normal
• Free Androgen Index (FAI): not calculable (Ref. 35.0 – 92.6)
• Prolactin: 18.4 ng/mL (Ref. 4.04 – 15.2) → Slightly elevated
• Albumin: 45.9 g/L (Ref. 35.0 – 52.0) → Normal

any idea how Free Testosterone: 58.47 pg/mL (Ref. 7.00 – 22.70) can be converted?

---

Older test on 01.08.25 (through, 24h post injection)

• Total Testosterone (trough, 24 h): 45.2 nmol/L (≈ 1303 ng/dL) — Ref. 8.64 – 29.0 nmol/L → High
• Estimated Free Testosterone (Vermeulen): 1.08 nmol/L (≈ 31.15 ng/dL / 2.4 %) → High (estimate)
• Estradiol (E2): 42.5 pg/mL (Ref. 11.3 – 43.2) → Upper-normal
• SHBG: 37.8 nmol/L (Ref. 18.3 – 54.1) → Normal
• Prolactin: 14.5 ng/mL (Ref. 4.04 – 15.2) → Normal

Varies widely, but I would say the possible ranges are something like this:

Total T: 75 - 200 ng/dL
Free T: 2 - 4 ng/dL
E2: 10 - 25 pg/mL

Chatgpt said that 150IUs should restore around 75% of production? If you are not hypogonadal in first place then would you get 75% of your full natural production? or maybe I understood something wrong.

Use this site for Vermeulen free T. With TT of 45.2 nMol/L, SHBG of 37.8 nMol/L and albumin at 4.38 g/dL you get cFTV of 1.08 nMol/L, which is over 31 ng/dL. The top of the normal range for this is in the low 20s. In line with what @FunkOdyssey said, your peak level could easily be two or three times this.

any idea how Free Testosterone: 58.47 pg/mL (Ref. 7.00 – 22.70) can be converted?

 

[dirkdigglr]

I administered a 20% self-prepared scrotal testosterone cream, 100 mg twice daily, + 150 IUs hcg daily and experienced overstimulation. Very interesting are the very high DHT values. The following labs show the hormonal impact:

~5.5h after applying 20% scrotal cream​

• Total Testosterone: 49.7 nmol/L (ref: 8.64–29.0) → ≈ 1433 ng/dL
• Free Testosterone: 42.4 pg/ml (ref: 7.00–22.7)
• DHT: 3290 pg/ml (ref: 300–850)
• SHBG: 41.9 nmol/L (ref: 18.3–54.1)
• Estradiol (E2): 28 pg/ml (ref: 11.3–43.2)

---

another test: ~12-14h after last dose​

• Total Testosterone: 27.0 nmol/L (ref: 12.0–30.0) → ≈ 780 ng/dL
• Free Testosterone: 17.88 pg/ml (ref: 7.0–22.7)

---

Short Interpretation:​

Scrotal application created a dramatic androgen spike:

• Free T nearly doubled above range
• DHT exploded to 3290 pg/ml vs a reference of 300–850, confirming intense local 5-alpha-reductase conversion.
  After ~12h without dosing, values significantly decreased toward the upper-normal range.
• It made me feel overstimulated and anxious, and my sleep became shorter and fragmented. I eventually felt burned out, with an almost compulsive drive toward stimulation

 

[dirkdigglr]

I switched now to 10mg testosterone propionate + 150 IU HCG, and also added 200mg Iboga which is probably around 6 to 8 mg ibogaine hcl. And I have to say — this feels very, very interesting. The Iboga effect is honestly fascinating. I’ve heard that it kind of “resets” or re-learns patterns and basically rewires parts of the reward system — and I can actually feel that. Everything feels smoother and calmer now.


It made me realize that my brain and reward center were actually messed up before — probably from stimulants, high-dose testosterone, dopamine overstimulation, etc. Now with Iboga, my cravings for stimulation are basically gone — cravings for fast food, sex, compulsive dopamine chasing — it’s just quiet. The simplest things feel satisfying again — nature, simple food, just being grounded.

It also feels like I’m more organized and structured in my day, and I waste way less time. And something else — I feel like I can connect with people better, more genuinely, more integrated as a person. Hard to explain — but it’s noticeable.

Of course, there’s a caveat: I’ve read that Iboga is cardiotoxic in rat studies, even at microdoses — and potentially stressful for liver and kidneys. I heard about iboga at a psychedelic congress where they also talked about microdosing protocols, cultural contexts, and different dosing traditions. And later saw it in videos like huberman labs youtube video I’m not sure about availability of non-toxic analogues exist, but I’ve got to say — the effect is extremely impressive. This stuff does something real.

 

[71580]

The high peak levels are able to drive changes in gene expression and effects that persist despite the serum level dropping back down.

I'm on 600mg of Maximus' oral T + 25mg Enclomiphene daily and experimenting with dosing schedule in order to have higher levels throughout the day into the evening when I need it most for intimacy, libido, etc.

Why does Maximus suggest once daily instead of twice like the other oral T options? You mentioned "The high peak levels are able to drive changes in gene expression and effects that persist despite the serum level dropping back down." ...is this something unique for native oral T vs undecanoate? Is trying to time the dosages to address certain acute issues, like low Libido, ED not necessary?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Why does Maximus suggest once daily instead of twice like the other oral T options? You mentioned "The high peak levels are able to drive changes in gene expression and effects that persist despite the serum level dropping back down." ...is this something unique for native oral T vs undecanoate? Is trying to time the dosages to address certain acute issues, like low Libido, ED not necessary?

We suggest once per day dosing because it is simple and effective for the majority of patients. Some 10% of patients seem to prefer twice daily dosing, so it can be worth experimenting with. It may seem counterintuitive, but there is often no strong relationship between your serum level of testosterone at a particular moment, and how you feel at that moment. You should not interpret a lower level later in the day to necessarily mean you will crash, feel depleted, or have no libido. It could mean that, but that would be more of an exception than the rule.

 

[dirkdigglr]

For me, it’s kind of the opposite of what some guys report: I can feel small and fine differences in dopamine / testosterone states.

With testosterone propionate, I can usually tell when it’s peaking vs. when it’s lower — it’s not just “on vs off,” it feels like a gradient. Same thing with oral testosterone: I notice variations, even when the dose changes aren’t huge.

What’s interesting is: I have friends on propionate who basically can’t feel much. For them it’s more like “yeah maybe” or nothing distinct, and they can’t reliably distinguish any effect.

My guess (not saying this is the only explanation) is that this might have something to do with body awareness / interoception. I have a history of ADHD medication, and I’ve done a lot of meditation — like thousands of hours, also Vipassana meditation retreats (10 days, ~10 hours/day, body scanning). After those retreats, I noticed my sensitivity to bodily sensations became way deeper. And with that, I started noticing the effects of substances much much more clearly.

So I’m wondering if some people who don’t notice testosterone effects as much might simply have less “resolution” in body awareness — not in a judgmental way, just different baseline sensitivity. Another possibility is placebo, and I know a lot of studies mention placebo effects, but subjectively it doesn’t feel like that to me (especially because the pattern is consistent across different substances). Same for psylocibin. I feel strong effects with even small doses.

I also noticed something else that surprised me: when I did very long meditation sessions (like 10 hours in a day) and took a substance, the effect felt amplified — like the signal got louder.

One more detail on testosterone specifically: in the beginning (propionate and oral), the effect felt very stimulating, almost “pushy.” But over time, that intense stimulation faded, and now it’s much more subtle.

 

[Willyt]

For me, it’s kind of the opposite of what some guys report: I can feel small and fine differences in dopamine / testosterone states.

With testosterone propionate, I can usually tell when it’s peaking vs. when it’s lower — it’s not just “on vs off,” it feels like a gradient. Same thing with oral testosterone: I notice variations, even when the dose changes aren’t huge.

What’s interesting is: I have friends on propionate who basically can’t feel much. For them it’s more like “yeah maybe” or nothing distinct, and they can’t reliably distinguish any effect.

My guess (not saying this is the only explanation) is that this might have something to do with body awareness / interoception. I have a history of ADHD medication, and I’ve done a lot of meditation — like thousands of hours, also Vipassana meditation retreats (10 days, ~10 hours/day, body scanning). After those retreats, I noticed my sensitivity to bodily sensations became way deeper. And with that, I started noticing the effects of substances much much more clearly.

So I’m wondering if some people who don’t notice testosterone effects as much might simply have less “resolution” in body awareness — not in a judgmental way, just different baseline sensitivity. Another possibility is placebo, and I know a lot of studies mention placebo effects, but subjectively it doesn’t feel like that to me (especially because the pattern is consistent across different substances). Same for psylocibin. I feel strong effects with even small doses.

I also noticed something else that surprised me: when I did very long meditation sessions (like 10 hours in a day) and took a substance, the effect felt amplified — like the signal got louder.

One more detail on testosterone specifically: in the beginning (propionate and oral), the effect felt very stimulating, almost “pushy.” But over time, that intense stimulation faded, and now it’s much more subtle.

I have never mediated a day in my life and have the same acute sensitivity to even 1-2 mg changes in TP. My guess is that guys like us are more likely to feel the physical effects of rise in BP, CNS stimulation or maybe vasodilation. It is even stronger surge feeling with no ester testosterone.

The upside hyper-sensitive types is temporary dopamine spike, but sometimes with physical sides like headaches, jaw pressure, heart palpitations, racing thoughts, early morning awakenings, etc.

Whatever the cause, I am sensitive to most any medication or supplement and always dial back the dose. The paradox is that I can drink like a fish lol.

What I've learned is that if you are sensitive to T dose changes, you are probably better off with daily subq dosing versus the big swings of 1x or 2x weekly.

 

[Seagal]

I have never mediated a day in my life and have the same acute sensitivity to even 1-2 mg changes in TP. My guess is that guys like us are more likely to feel the physical effects of rise in BP, CNS stimulation or maybe vasodilation. It is even stronger surge feeling with no ester testosterone.

The upside hyper-sensitive types is temporary dopamine spike, but sometimes with physical sides like headaches, jaw pressure, heart palpitations, racing thoughts, early morning awakenings, etc.

Whatever the cause, I am sensitive to most any medication or supplement and always dial back the dose. The paradox is that I can drink like a fish lol.

What I've learned is that if you are sensitive to T dose changes, you are probably better off with daily subq dosing versus the big swings of 1x or 2x weekly.

This can also include higher sensitivity to psychological aspects. Pros and cons, mostly more difficult though.
Back to T: for me the change of dropping T feels not good. I decided for weekly TU.
The negatives you mentioned might also be related to cortisol spikes.

 

[Willyt]

This can also include higher sensitivity to psychological aspects. Pros and cons, mostly more difficult though.
Back to T: for me the change of dropping T feels not good. I decided for weekly TU.
The negatives you mentioned might also be related to cortisol spikes.

For the record, I am most definitely not opposed to manufacturing T peaks. The upside to being a hyper sensitivity type is its easier to create a morning spike using small amount of TP or TNE. I have experimented extensively with small amounts of fast acting T to create a morning peak