Advice needed. TRT started

[downsouthindevon]

Hi all,

I am hoping for a little advice. I am from the UK. Male 45.
I had my bloods done before Christmas and testosterone was low with typical symptoms.
I’ve been on TRT now for 10 weeks and I am feeling amazing if I can be honest.
I have started TRT treatment privately and I take Test Cyp 0.25ml and HCG 0.15ml. All subcutaneously twice a week (Tuesday and Saturday).
I have been weight training for absolutely years, and yes, I have done a lot of AAS in the past - cutting and bulking cycles. I’ve not been doing anything of this for 15 years. I still train but just struggled for years.

Since starting my TRT, I did increase my Test Cyp dosage to 0.50 ml twice a week.

I also decided to take proviron (12mg tablet per day) as I have used this in the past, and it just helped me to keep estrogen levels under control and reduce any symptoms related to testosterone. With all the steroids I have taken, I have rarely had any major related side effects which I am most grateful for, as my PCTs at the start were not the best.

I’ve just done my first blood test and as expected my testosterone level are higher than expected, as the company told me so, and they want me to drop testosterone dosages down, but I would like to continue as I am.

They do not know that I have been taking more.

Test = 57 nmo/L (normal ranges are 12-30).

Free testosterone = 1.8 nmol/l (normal ranges should be 0.226- 0.65)

My questions is:

Is it ok to continue at these dosages and keep testosterone levels as they are for a considerable time. I have seen many other people taking similar dosages and much higher and having no problems at all.

I am nowhere near what I used to take years ago and I am feeling great to continue with these low dosages. Your thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[Cataceous]

What are your priorities and tolerance for risk? If you value long-term good health above all then cut back to the initial dose, which is at least borderline physiological. There are risks in continuing with such high levels for years, but we can't be sure how significant they are. The data suggest there may be a risk of cardiotoxicity with a large enough cumulative exposure, but there are no studies to verify and quantify this prediction. Of course you also need to ensure that tangible parameters such as lipids and HCT do not stray into higher risk territory.

On the other hand, maybe you value the enhanced athleticism experienced with higher levels and are avoiding side effects for now. Then perhaps it's worth it to you to overlook the nebulous threat to long-term health and continue with high dosing.

 

[Gman86]

Dude, absolutely do not worry about using 200mg/ week of test indefinitely. If u feel good on it, stay on it and enjoy a long and happy life. But trust me, there’s nothing u have to worry about using 200mg/ week. Don’t spend any time thinking or stressing about it

But I would still stay on top of ur vitals, mainly BP, make sure that’s always in a healthy range.

Then monitor HCT and just make sure it doesn’t go over around 54%. Check platelets, and make sure they’re not too high. Most people’s platelets stay in the low to mid range. If ur platelets are on the high side, maybe just try to keep HCT less than around 52%.

U aren’t gonna need to really worry about lipids on 200mg/ week. It’s not gonna have much of a negative impact on lipids. Those are gonna be more controlled with diet and other lifestyle factors

Obv there’s gonna be guys that are gonna try and scare u and tell u that 200mg/ week will negatively impact ur health and possibly decrease longevity, but if that’s true, it’s gonna be very rare. The majority of guys are gonna be totally fine doing this dose, and not have their health impacted negatively more than a guy on say 150mg/ week.

Here’s a vid that will make u feel better. The guy has been on gear for 40 years and according to him, is still doing well health wise. Could he die tomorrow, sure lol. Could he be telling the truth, it’s possible. Guy does not come off like a bullshitter to me. But once u see what this guy has been running for 40 years straight, u’ll laugh at urself for worrying about using 200mg/ week of just test. I also added the notes I had saved under the vid link. Gives a summary of everything

(how to stay healthy 40 years on steroids)
-20 mins in goes over his current full protocol
-uses proviron to control E2. 25mg 4x/ week. Keeps E2 40-70
-said earlier in vid, biggest and strongest he ever got was on 400mg test, 150 deca, and 50mg anadrol per day. Got up to 250lbs lean
WHAT HE TAKES NOW:
-175mcg T4 only
-HGH 2.5iu’s 4 days or week middle of night only on training days
-Lantus 15 units every morning
-200 mg test
-150 mg deca
-150 mg Equipoise
All 1 shot a week of above AAS

ALL PREWORKOUT 4x/WEEK BELOW. 1 hour before workout
-50mg NPP
-50mg test prop
-25mg Proviron
-20 mg Anavar
-25mg Turinabol

TOTALS PER WEEK:
-400mg test
-350mg nandrolone
-150mg Equipoise
-100mg Proviron
-80mg Anavar
-100mg Turinabol

@39 mins talks about CPAP

 

[Melody68]

I'm 68, started 70mg TE one month ago to combat what I think is premature fatigue when active. I don't know much about T at all.

But that doesn't mean I don't know about life - I do. I had cancer and open heart surgery; I often wonder how or where I got it from. It's difficult to categorize, but I can simplify the cause . . . things in my life were out-of-balance. And I can assure you of this - a T level of 57 nmol/L when the normal ranges are 12-30 is definitely out-of-balance. The likelihood of it catching up with you in some very undesirable way is quite high.

It's not worth it; life is more valuable than the single-minded pursuit of big biceps and a higher bench press. Fitness, yes, but remember that Time is precious; I prefer to think that a person could be fit on 30 - 45 minutes per day of exercise. Then back to the real challenge as only you can determine. Work, education, business, charity, skills? Examine your current situation to judge what activities would most benefit yourself and your family in the long run, be bold in your thinking, and then work towards that goal.

I leave you with a quote by Sun Tzu . . . "Can you imagine what I would do, if I could do all I can?"

 

[Gman86]

I'm 68, started 70mg TE one month ago to combat what I think is premature fatigue when active. I don't know much about T at all.

But that doesn't mean I don't know about life - I do. I had cancer and open heart surgery; I often wonder how or where I got it from. It's difficult to categorize, but I can simplify the cause . . . things in my life were out-of-balance. And I can assure you of this - a T level of 57 nmol/L when the normal ranges are 12-30 is definitely out-of-balance. The likelihood of it catching up with you in some very undesirable way is quite high.

It's not worth it; life is more valuable than the single-minded pursuit of big biceps and a higher bench press. Fitness, yes, but remember that Time is precious; I prefer to think that a person could be fit on 30 - 45 minutes per day of exercise. Then back to the real challenge as only you can determine. Education, business, charity, skills? Examine your current situation to judge what activities would most benefit yourself and your family in the long run, be bold in your thinking, and then work towards that goal.

I leave you with a quote by Sun Tzu . . . "Can you imagine what I would do, if I could do all I can?"

Love that quote! One of my favorite mind exercises to do is to think about myself at the end of my life on my death bed, and to think about how I would feel, what regrets I might have, what things would be most important to me in life at that moment, what I might wish I would have done, or done more of, or done less of, etc., and then bring myself back to reality, where I actually have the opportunity to act on all of those things. It’s one of the most beneficial mind exercises that I do on a regular basis. The benefits that come from it are priceless. Gonna save that quote tho, I really like it. It’s simple, but couldn't have more meaning, imo/ at least for me. Thanks for sharing it.

Obv dont agree with ur views that 200mg of test/ week have long term negative impacts on a persons health, as long as they keep BP, and other vital signs WNL, as well as not letting their RBC’s/ HCT levels get too too high, but we can agree to disagree on that one lol

And not trying to push any specific diet or anything, but u rarely rarely rarely ever see people on long term carnivore get cancer or cardiovascular disease. It’s because cancer and cardiovascular disease stem from the same things, chronic inflammation, insulin resistance, damaged mitochondria, and cells malfunctioning. The carnivore diet is the best way, diet wise, to mitigate/ resolve these issues. Again, not trying to push anything on u. Just trying to let u know what the best way to decrease the chances of u getting cancer again/ any cardiovascular diseases again is, at least in regards to diet

And as we all probably know by now, eventually if every man lives long enough, they will eventually all get prostate cancer. It’s inevitable for all of us men. And since ur 68, and in the higher risk category for it, thought I’d share a little tip on how to prevent it. Obv the carnivore diet lol, but also getting enough iodine. Either through diet, or supplementation. Just a little tip that most guys probably aren’t aware of. Any glandular issue, always think iodine. So one of the best ways to also prevent/ resolve breast cancer, if u know any women, or even men, dealing with that. Sorry, couldn’t help myself with the little diet/ health tangent there lol. Anytime I see people dealing with things that are extremely easy to resolve/ avoid, I can’t help but at least give them answers/ options that will help them. Whether they take or leave it is irrelevant to me. Just makes me feel better knowing I at least gave them the info that can help them, and what they do after that with it is up to them. Just hard to not say anything at all, when u know u have things that can help them out, at least for me

 

[Melody68]

Hello Gman, I hope you are well.

Very often being goal oriented means that you have to picture yourself in the future in a certain place, and if it's a desirable place, to then work backwards to find out what steps are necessary today and in the coming period to expedite your arrival at the desired spot.

Of course it works the other way around too. Since we're all going to be on our deathbed one day, it only stands to reason that we'll have regrets, regrets that we can mitigate if we act beginning today to avoid them. It's an exercise that we should all practice.

Though I'm generally a very agreeable fellow (or maybe I just don't give a sh-t about arguing with people), I greet your suggestion about the carnivore diet with skepticism. Truly, I hate to refer to the wisdom of the decades by referring to my age, but it's true that when you become "older" you have the benefit of many years experience behind you. There must have been at least ten diets in the last 40 years that claimed to solve all mankind's problems; they were all proved lacking in the post-diet years - in fact many followers were ostracized for believing in "such nonsense". I fell victim to this as much as anybody.

I was told at age 41 then I had serious heart blockage and needed a bypass immediately. I didn't want to do it, so I embraced the ultra low fat diet of those days, and the claim that it could reverse heart disease. How intense was my belief? I'm 6'3 and, at that time, a solid 240 lbs. On the diet for two years, my weight plummeted to 168 before I said enough is enough. Bright as I like to think I am, I fell hook, line and sinker for the popular diet of the day. No more.

Nevertheless, I'm intrigued by your suggestion of iodine, which I'm going to dedicate some research to . . .

 

[Gman86]

Hello Gman, I hope you are well.

Very often being goal oriented means that you have to picture yourself in the future in a certain place, and if it's a desirable place, to then work backwards to find out what steps are necessary today and in the coming period to expedite your arrival at the desired spot.

Of course it works the other way around too. Since we're all going to be on our deathbed one day, it only stands to reason that we'll have regrets, regrets that we can mitigate if we act beginning today to avoid them. It's an exercise that we should all practice.

Though I'm generally a very agreeable fellow (or maybe I just don't give a sh-t about arguing with people), I greet your suggestion about the carnivore diet with skepticism. Truly, I hate to refer to the wisdom of the decades by referring to my age, but it's true that when you become "older" you have the benefit of many years experience behind you. There must have been at least ten diets in the last 40 years that claimed to solve all mankind's problems; they were all proved lacking in the post-diet years - in fact many followers were ostracized for believing in "such nonsense". I fell victim to this as much as anybody.

I was told at age 41 then I had serious heart blockage and needed a bypass immediately. I didn't want to do it, so I embraced the ultra low fat diet of those days, and the claim that it could reverse heart disease. How intense was my belief? I'm 6'3 and, at that time, a solid 240 lbs. On the diet for two years, my weight plummeted to 168 before I said enough is enough. Bright as I like to think I am, I fell hook, line and sinker for the popular diet of the day. No more.

Nevertheless, I'm intrigued by your suggestion of iodine, which I'm going to dedicate some research to . . .

Feel free to DM me about iodine, if u want. Can definitely fast track ur research. Been researching iodine for years, and try to save the things I feel are worth going over again at some point/ sharing with others if they want to learn more about iodine.


And trust me, what ur saying about different diets over the years isn’t wrong. The difference between the carnivore diet, and all the other proposed diets, is first off, the more research u do into the carnivore diet, the more it makes sense/ becomes clear why it works so well, in regards to all the benefits that come from doing it. Opposed to every other diet, where if u actually understand nutrition and the human body, the more research u do into it, the more it becomes obv why the diet isn’t optimal for humans, and u start to see all the negatives/ pitfalls that come with it.

The second thing that sets it apart is how everyone that tries it experiences the same amazing benefits, short and long term, and how consistent all the anecdotes of people on it are. Opposed to other diets where the anecdotes/ short and long term experiences are inconsistent. Like the vegan/ vegetarian diet, for example. Some report doing amazing, some report that they felt great the first year or two, and some report that they never felt that great on it, and had gas all day, and spent way too much of their day on the toilet.

3rd thing that sets it apart is that with all other diets, there tends to be people that will try a diet, and then eventually continue looking for other options, because they didn’t feel and function optimally on it. That basically never happens with carnivore. Once someone tries carnivore, and learns all about it, they either stay on carnivore, or end up doing a carnivore base with added carbs. But it’s very rare for people to feel and function optimally, while on carnivore, and learn why it works so well, and then switch to something like a vegan/ vegetarian diet. It’s just not gonna happen. But u will find endless anecdotes of people going from vegan/ vegetarian, to carnivore, and never going back to being vegan/ vegetarian. That’s because people are always gonna feel better on carnivore, or a carnivore base with added carbs from healthy sources, over being vegan/ vegetarian. Nobody is willingly going to go from a diet that makes them feel optimal, to a diet that makes them feel less optimal, unless the happiness of eating those foods that don’t make them feel optimal trumps feeling and functioning optimally everyday.

I’ve been researching diet/ nutrition/ human health like crazy since I was probably 13. For whatever reason, I’ve been obsessed with it all since I can remember. Will be 38 this year. And I can confidently say that the optimal diet, for all humans, is either a carnivore diet, or carnivore based diet with added carbs, from sources like fruit, raw organic honey, and raw organic maple syrup, for some main examples. I’m not 100% positive which is more ideal, straight carnivore, and being in ketosis year round, or a carnivore base with added carbs, or a mix of both. Maybe doing carnivore and being in ketosis for a time, then doing a carnivore base with added carbs and using sugar as ur main fuel source is the most ideal balance. That part I’m still trying to figure out.

But at the end of the day, don’t go by what people say, go by the results. And obv there’s gonna be outliers, with anything in life. So when assessing anything, u have to base things off of what the majority of people experience. And when u look at the majority of experiences that people report on carnivore, u’ll see that they feel and function better than they have in their entire life, or feel and function better than they have in a long long time. The carnivore diet is also the best way, diet wise, to become as insulin sensitive as possible, as well as decrease inflammation as much as possible. The two leading causes of most chronic illnesses. Carnivore is also the best way to prevent cancer/ shrink tumors/ cure cancer/ put cancer into remission, as far as diet goes, from all the research I’ve done. I’ve also seen people cure things with carnivore that were supposedly incurable, such as lupus, Crohn’s disease, and multiple sclerosis, to name a few. The carnivore diet is also a great way to cure/ help with seizure disorders. And then I’ve seen it cure mood and mental health disorders more times than I can even remember. It basically just seems like the carnivore diet gives the body everything it needs, without giving it things that mess with it, leaving the body in an optimal state to heal, and when the body is in that state, I don’t think people realize how amazing the human body is at taking care of itself, without the need for outside help/ medical interventions. The body is truly a masterpiece/ miracle. It can only do so much, however, when we aren’t putting the right things into it

And lastly, all it takes is a little common sense/ critical thinking skills, so see that eating animal based is optimal for us. All the forms of micronutrients in animals are in forms that are optimal for the human body, opposed to in plants where a lot of micronutrients are in forms not ideal for the human body to absorb. They need to be transformed into the forms seen in animals first, before we can absorb them properly. Between this, and the fact that plants have all these things trying to prevent us from eating them, it’s just extremely obvious to me that an ideal/ optimal diet for humans does not include foods that have all these things in them that are trying to cause harm to us, once ingested. Yes, plants can also have micronutrients that are beneficial for us, but it just doesn’t make sense to me to eat foods that have micronutrients along with all these negatives, once ingested, opposed to eating foods that have all the beneficial micronutrients that we need, without all those negative things trying to cause us harm once ingested. Animals defend themselves through teeth and claws and poisons they inject, etc, once u get past all those things, and can get access to their meat, the meat doesn’t have things that are trying to cause u harm/ prevent u from eating it. The way plants defend themselves and try to stay alive is through plant defense chemicals/ toxins that negatively affect the health of the host that is trying to consume it. Once u understand this key difference, the decision as to what foods to eat, and not eat, becomes extremely obvious, imo

 

[Melody68]

Wow Gman, that is some post, I can see that you truly must have become obsessed with this topic since the age of 13 . . . your research is very detailed.

Nobody is willingly going to go from a diet that makes them feel optimal, to a diet that makes them feel less optimal, unless the happiness of eating those foods that don’t make them feel optimal trumps feeling and functioning optimally everyday.

I'm embarrassed to admit that this sounds like me. I can't imagine at this point limiting myself to meat day in and day out; I simply love a tremendous variety of foods as well as my wife's home cooking. But sure, the words "feeling optimal" are very appealing. I think trying this necessitates the kind of motivation that only fear can inspire, namely the fear of bad health and of the consequences if you don't do something "drastic". That's the way it was for me when I was on the no fat diet - I hoped to reverse heart disease because I had such a fear of the health alternatives. It would be wise to experiment with the carnivore diet before health forces you to, but without that pressure I'm going to have a problem cutting out my wife's blueberry pie, ha!

 

[granger]

your Test is double normal range... yes most people feel better on more but most certainly will lower your lifespan.

id try and go lower and see how low you can go while still feeling pretty good.

its always baffling to me that people go to a DR and then ask on a forum what to take... when one assumes you go to the DR to be HEALthy and monitor your health...

if want to take as much as you want, do that, but your not optimizing your health.

no free lunch. folks feel better on more adderal too.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Unless you are going UGL route I’m not sure how you’re gonna avoid running out of medication early. Seems like that would be a huge pain in the ass to deal with at the end of every vial.

 

[Systemlord]

your Test is double normal range... yes most people feel better on more but most certainly will lower your lifespan.

"Testosterone double the normal range will certainly will lower your lifespan!"

This statement is bu**sh**, another unfounded blanket statement. Individual response to androgens and tolerance varies greatly.

I'm not aware of any placebo controlled trials or studies looking at men with supraphysiological levels (double the normal ranges) using exogenous testosterone in isolation decreasing lifespan!

You pulled this one out of thin air!

 

[Gman86]

Wow Gman, that is some post, I can see that you truly must have become obsessed with this topic since the age of 13 . . . your research is very detailed.

Nobody is willingly going to go from a diet that makes them feel optimal, to a diet that makes them feel less optimal, unless the happiness of eating those foods that don’t make them feel optimal trumps feeling and functioning optimally everyday.

I'm embarrassed to admit that this sounds like me. I can't imagine at this point limiting myself to meat day in and day out; I simply love a tremendous variety of foods as well as my wife's home cooking. But sure, the words "feeling optimal" are very appealing. I think trying this necessitates the kind of motivation that only fear can inspire, namely the fear of bad health and of the consequences if you don't do something "drastic". That's the way it was for me when I was on the no fat diet - I hoped to reverse heart disease because I had such a fear of the health alternatives. It would be wise to experiment with the carnivore diet before health forces you to, but without that pressure I'm going to have a problem cutting out my wife's blueberry pie, ha!

Oh man, now I want some warm blueberry pie with some vanilla icecream on the side! Lol

So the reason why I’m so passionate about talking about diet, is not to get everyone to do the carnivore diet. Hell I don’t even do carnivore. So what kind of hypocrite would I be to be telling everyone to do carnivore, when I don’t even do it myself lol. This is a forum where guys are simply trying to feel and function their best, with an emphasis on hormone optimization. So all I’m trying to do, when talking about diet specifically, is to let people know, hey, if u want to feel and function at ur best, here’s the foods/ drinks to consume, and foods/ drinks to avoid, that’s all. But I also always preach balance, and happiness. And personal goals also need to be taken into consideration. For instance, maybe someone is a bodybuilder, and needs a lot of carbs to build the muscle they need to build in order to compete. They might not feel their best eating all those carbs, but the happiness that comes from them building the physique that they want, makes them happier than not having the physique they want, and feeling better mood, energy and sleep wise, for some examples. It all comes down to the balance that makes us happiest as individuals. So again, my goal isn’t to get everyone to eat carnivore. I simply want to let people know, the closer u eat to carnivore, the better ur going to feel, the better ur body is going to function as a whole, the healthier ur going to be, and the longer ur going to live. I also think it’s very important to correct misconceptions/ myths, when it comes to diet. I just want people to understand what’s actually healthy, vs what they think is healthy, and then I want them to do whatever it is that’s going to increase their overall happiness the most.

So with u specifically, I’m just trying to help u understand what foods/ drinks to consume, and what foods/ drinks to avoid, in order to prevent/ decrease the chances of any more cancer returning, and/ or prevent u from having to deal with any more cardiovascular issues. Once u understand those things, u can then try to eat as close to carnivore as u can, without sacrificing ur happiness too much, when it come to enjoying delicious food with people u enjoy. Basically find the best balance that works for u personally. Because at the end of the day, being as happiness as possible is the goal, imo. And the balance of what makes a person as happy as possible is going to always look different, depending on the person. All I like to see is that everyone is as happy as possible. I find that when people around me are happier, it always makes me happier. Happier to see that they’re happier, and happier because being around happy people is always just more enjoyable, imo/ ime

Here’s a good vid that I was watching earlier this morning that explains why the carnivore diet is so optimal, and he also goes over why plants/ grains/ seed oils are not things we want to to be consuming regularly, if optimal health is the goal. And I believe this guy was a former vegetarian or vegan. But I could be wrong. I’m constantly watching vids and podcasts about this stuff, and I watch them at 2x speed, to get through them faster so I can get to other vids/ podcasts quicker, so it’s sometimes hard to remember what info came from which vid

 

[Cataceous]

.... I simply want to let people know, the closer u eat to carnivore, the better ur going to feel, the better ur body is going to function as a whole, the healthier ur going to be, and the longer ur going to live. ...

Why do you keep parroting this nonsense when there is high quality evidence that greater consumption of plant-based foods improves health? Carnivore is a very unbalanced diet, and one of the consequences is harm to the gut microbiome.

... it's important to know what determines a healthy gut. Thankfully, there's an answer from Rob Knight, M.D., and The American Gut Project. This groundbreaking 2018 study involved more than 15,000 microbiome samples from more than 11,000 human participants across 45 countries. It is by far the largest database connecting the gut microbiome to diet and lifestyle and therefore the best tool for understanding these connections.​

​

Here's what Knight and researchers discovered when they analyzed their database to determine the clear-cut, most powerful determinant of a healthy gut microbiome: the diversity of plants in your diet. This was more important than age, gender, nation of origin, and even recent antibiotic exposure.​

...

Why the carnivore diet is bad for your gut.​

Here's the beautiful thing: We don't have to venture a guess when we have high-quality research to just give us the answer. In a 2014 study, researchers monitored changes to the microbiome day by day during five days on a whole foods, plant-based diet versus five days on a diet composed entirely of animal products—meat, eggs, and some dairy. You could call the latter the "carnivore diet," even though it didn't have a name yet​

Here's what happened when participants ate only animal products:​

• Dramatic changes in the microbiome in less than 24 hours.
• Increased growth of inflammatory bacteria (Alistipes, Bilophila, andBacteroides) and decreased growth of anti-inflammatory bacteria (Roseburia, Eubacterium rectale, and Ruminococcus bromii).
• Dramatic increases in Bilophila wadsworthia, a bacteria strongly associated with the development of inflammatory bowel diseases, like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis.
• Significantly lower levels of SCFAs butyrate and acetate. (Duh!)
• Increased antibiotic resistance in the gut.
• Production of more secondary bile salts, which are known to cause colon and liver cancer.

[R]​

 

[Systemlord]

Why do you keep parroting this nonsense when there is high quality evidence that greater consumption of plant-based foods improves health? Carnivore is a very unbalanced diet, and one of the consequences is harm to the gut microbiome.

... it's important to know what determines a healthy gut. Thankfully, there's an answer from Rob Knight, M.D., and The American Gut Project. This groundbreaking 2018 study involved more than 15,000 microbiome samples from more than 11,000 human participants across 45 countries. It is by far the largest database connecting the gut microbiome to diet and lifestyle and therefore the best tool for understanding these connections.​

​

Here's what Knight and researchers discovered when they analyzed their database to determine the clear-cut, most powerful determinant of a healthy gut microbiome: the diversity of plants in your diet. This was more important than age, gender, nation of origin, and even recent antibiotic exposure.​

...

Why the carnivore diet is bad for your gut.​

Here's the beautiful thing: We don't have to venture a guess when we have high-quality research to just give us the answer. In a 2014 study, researchers monitored changes to the microbiome day by day during five days on a whole foods, plant-based diet versus five days on a diet composed entirely of animal products—meat, eggs, and some dairy. You could call the latter the "carnivore diet," even though it didn't have a name yet​

Here's what happened when participants ate only animal products:​

• Dramatic changes in the microbiome in less than 24 hours.
• Increased growth of inflammatory bacteria (Alistipes, Bilophila, andBacteroides) and decreased growth of anti-inflammatory bacteria (Roseburia, Eubacterium rectale, and Ruminococcus bromii).
• Dramatic increases in Bilophila wadsworthia, a bacteria strongly associated with the development of inflammatory bowel diseases, like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis.
• Significantly lower levels of SCFAs butyrate and acetate. (Duh!)
• Increased antibiotic resistance in the gut.
• Production of more secondary bile salts, which are known to cause colon and liver cancer.

[R]​

I’m going to take the study with a grain of salt!

Marcia Angell, editor of the New England Journal of medicine for 20 years,

Similar conflict of interests and bias exist in virtually every field of medicine, particularly those that rely heavily on drugs and devices. It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians, or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades, as an editor of the New England of Journal of medicine.

Richard Horton, editor of the Lancet wrote, that the case against science is straightforward, much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analysis, and fragment, conflict of interests, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.

Big Pharma pays top journal editors.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Why do you keep parroting this nonsense when there is high quality evidence that greater consumption of plant-based foods improves health? Carnivore is a very unbalanced diet, and one of the consequences is harm to the gut microbiome.

... it's important to know what determines a healthy gut. Thankfully, there's an answer from Rob Knight, M.D., and The American Gut Project. This groundbreaking 2018 study involved more than 15,000 microbiome samples from more than 11,000 human participants across 45 countries. It is by far the largest database connecting the gut microbiome to diet and lifestyle and therefore the best tool for understanding these connections.​

​

Here's what Knight and researchers discovered when they analyzed their database to determine the clear-cut, most powerful determinant of a healthy gut microbiome: the diversity of plants in your diet. This was more important than age, gender, nation of origin, and even recent antibiotic exposure.​

...

Why the carnivore diet is bad for your gut.​

Here's the beautiful thing: We don't have to venture a guess when we have high-quality research to just give us the answer. In a 2014 study, researchers monitored changes to the microbiome day by day during five days on a whole foods, plant-based diet versus five days on a diet composed entirely of animal products—meat, eggs, and some dairy. You could call the latter the "carnivore diet," even though it didn't have a name yet​

Here's what happened when participants ate only animal products:​

• Dramatic changes in the microbiome in less than 24 hours.
• Increased growth of inflammatory bacteria (Alistipes, Bilophila, andBacteroides) and decreased growth of anti-inflammatory bacteria (Roseburia, Eubacterium rectale, and Ruminococcus bromii).
• Dramatic increases in Bilophila wadsworthia, a bacteria strongly associated with the development of inflammatory bowel diseases, like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis.
• Significantly lower levels of SCFAs butyrate and acetate. (Duh!)
• Increased antibiotic resistance in the gut.
• Production of more secondary bile salts, which are known to cause colon and liver cancer.

[R]​

We’ve had a similar conversation before and you just bob and weave, then when presented with real world data reply with “yeah well you’ve never published anything to a scientific journal so I disregard your comment”.

you need to avoid seed oils (PUFA's)

many here know it, but I did a little compilation of some good studies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3467319/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886622/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6700518/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22334255/...

www.excelmale.com

Just like the diabetes thing, with regards to meat consumption and the supposed “dramatic” increase of agents that cause IBS and other gut issues…why do so many people resolve IBS by increasing meat consumption and decreasing consumption of other things?


Also, you ignored his points then zoom in on one aspect(gut microbiome) while failing to address any of his points and acting like yours is the end all be all. And we see a DECREASE in inflammation in people on the carnivore diet…meanwhile inflammation and all of the issues caused by it has dramatically increased while meat consumption has gone down. So again…it appears the real world does not support his claims, or at the very least there is a LOT that is being left out of his analysis due to the large number of factors at play.

 

[Systemlord]

What were we eating in the 1800s when the obesity rate was 1.2%?

What were we eating in the 1940s when the obesity rate was 6%?

What were we eating in the 1970s when the obesity rate was 13%?

What are we eating now with the obesity rate at 42%?

People often call the carnivore diet, a diet or extreme diet.

I propose that the diet you’re on now, the western diet is a fad, because it didn’t exist 100 years ago.

It’s a brand new diet that didn’t exist in our recent past. Before 1986 no one said you had to eat fiber.

 

[Gman86]

Why do you keep parroting this nonsense when there is high quality evidence that greater consumption of plant-based foods improves health? Carnivore is a very unbalanced diet, and one of the consequences is harm to the gut microbiome.

... it's important to know what determines a healthy gut. Thankfully, there's an answer from Rob Knight, M.D., and The American Gut Project. This groundbreaking 2018 study involved more than 15,000 microbiome samples from more than 11,000 human participants across 45 countries. It is by far the largest database connecting the gut microbiome to diet and lifestyle and therefore the best tool for understanding these connections.​

​

Here's what Knight and researchers discovered when they analyzed their database to determine the clear-cut, most powerful determinant of a healthy gut microbiome: the diversity of plants in your diet. This was more important than age, gender, nation of origin, and even recent antibiotic exposure.​

...

Why the carnivore diet is bad for your gut.​

Here's the beautiful thing: We don't have to venture a guess when we have high-quality research to just give us the answer. In a 2014 study, researchers monitored changes to the microbiome day by day during five days on a whole foods, plant-based diet versus five days on a diet composed entirely of animal products—meat, eggs, and some dairy. You could call the latter the "carnivore diet," even though it didn't have a name yet​

Here's what happened when participants ate only animal products:​

• Dramatic changes in the microbiome in less than 24 hours.
• Increased growth of inflammatory bacteria (Alistipes, Bilophila, andBacteroides) and decreased growth of anti-inflammatory bacteria (Roseburia, Eubacterium rectale, and Ruminococcus bromii).
• Dramatic increases in Bilophila wadsworthia, a bacteria strongly associated with the development of inflammatory bowel diseases, like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis.
• Significantly lower levels of SCFAs butyrate and acetate. (Duh!)
• Increased antibiotic resistance in the gut.
• Production of more secondary bile salts, which are known to cause colon and liver cancer.

[R]​

Come on, all this is so easy to poke holes in. First off, what parameters were they using to determine if a person’s gut biome was “healthy” or not? U can’t just say, all these people had a “healthy” gut biome. What determines that? And who knows if what they were using to determine this is accurate/ correct

And the carnivore group was eating meat, eggs and dairy? What kind of meat, eggs and dairy? There’s a lot of meat that’s crap. Meat is an extremely general term. Were they eating grass fed ruminant meat? Obv not. Were they even eating mostly ruminant meat? Probably not? Were they eating processed deli meat? Maybe. Were they eating meat from mono gastric animals fed a crap/ unnatural diet, probably. Were they eating pastured eggs? I doubt it. Were they eating eggs from chickens fed a crap/ unnatural diet? Most likely. Were they eating raw grass fed dairy? I doubt it. Were they eating dairy from cows fed a crap/ unnatural diet? Most likely. These things make all the difference. Healthy versions of these foods are superfoods, while the crap versions of them should be avoided. This is a perfect example of why I say that most studies are either flawed, or corrupt, or both. This one being extremely flawed, and therefore the conclusions being useless, imo. But people that don’t know any better, like urself, will parrot it like it’s quality information, simply because it came from a study. Just silly

Try curing people of chronic gut ailments with a vegan/ vegetarian diet. It’s not gonna happen. Now try curing people with chronic gut ailments with the carnivore diet. It’s gonna cure them 9/10 times. These are the actual real world results that matter. Not studies that conclude misinformation based on flawed methods to come to these incorrect conclusions. Take the time to see what people in the real world experience. Again, at the end of the day, that’s all that matters

 

[Gman86]

What were we eating in the 1800s when the obesity rate was 1.2%?

What were we eating in the 1940s when the obesity rate was 6%?

What were we eating in the 1970s when the obesity rate was 13%?

What are we eating now with the obesity rate is 42%?

People often call the carnivore diet, a diet or extreme diet.

I propose that the diet you’re on now, the western diet is a fad, because it didn’t exist 100 years ago.

It’s a brand new diet that didn’t exist in our recent past. Before 1986 no one said you had to eat fiber.

Interesting point. I agree. Never thought of it like u put it tho. But ur right. And obv we should all know by now, carnivore doesn’t cause cardiovascular disease, and vegan/ vegetarianism doesn’t cause cardiovascular diseases. It’s the processed foods, processed seed oils, concentrated sources of unnatural sugars, or even natural sugars in extremely high quantities in things like sodas and juices, that cause cardiovascular disease. Along with other inflammatory foods, such as foods that contain gluten, and crap processed dairy from cows fed a crap/ unnatural diet, for a few examples. These are all the actually causes of cardiovascular disease, and why we’ve seen a spike in it over the past 100 years or so

 

[Phil Goodman]

Feel free to DM me about iodine, if u want. Can definitely fast track ur research. Been researching iodine for years, and try to save the things I feel are worth going over again at some point/ sharing with others if they want to learn more about iodine.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on and approach to iodine. Can DM if you’d prefer, but it may be something others are interested in as well.

 

[Systemlord]

Interesting point. I agree. Never thought of it like u put it tho. But ur right.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee came up with all of this data. He's been studying human nutrition and human digestion for over 25+ years and is also a neurosurgeon.