slicktop

Active Member
I guess what I don't understand is the willingness to first try damn near everything else BUT cheap, reliable, easy injections.
 

slicktop

Active Member
Perhaps willingness was a poor choice of words. I guess it seems like you almost eliminated therapies in reverse order, from least common/most expensive first to most common/least expensive last. Hope I didn't come across harsh! I was just wondering if there was a reason for leaving regular old test injections for last. Welcome to the forum, and good luck on your continued success!
 

bennettjc

Member
No worries...! Finally so far so good. I seem to not need much of a dose to feel better. I'm on 120mg IM of Testosterone Enanthate (split twice). No side effects. Blood test results are fine - Total Testosterone ~1200ng/dl. Free Testosterone ~ 20ng/dl.

As to the lack of T Enth or T Cyp not being brought up earlier, after blaming myself for not doing enough due diligence I do blame the providers. None explicitly mentioned it as an option until all the other routes had been failures!
 

slicktop

Active Member
No worries...! Finally so far so good. I seem to not need much of a dose to feel better. I'm on 120mg IM of Testosterone Enanthate (split twice). No side effects. Blood test results are fine - Total Testosterone ~1200ng/dl. Free Testosterone ~ 20ng/dl.

As to the lack of T Enth or T Cyp not being brought up earlier, after blaming myself for not doing enough due diligence I do blame the providers. None explicitly mentioned it as an option until all the other routes had been failures!
I'm a big proponent of test enanthate myself. I don't want to believe that the docs are in bed with the pharm companies making all these creams and gels and pellets and BS, but... man, when a regular old injection is the last thing recommended, it makes me wonder. Glad you're doing well!
 

bennettjc

Member
Its weird how I ended up on enanthate.... I didn't include this in my story but once educated I found myself explaining to my endocrinologist that "Xyosted" was just Testosterone Enanthate 50mg or 75mg or 100mg with a 1/2 inch 27g needle to be given once a week subQ. The only difference was the fancy and expensive selfinjector package.... So she said "if you like enanthate then that's fine." So I am on it.

I do like the fact that the pharma product comes in sesame seed oil. I happen to love sesame seeds. And that oil is less viscous than the cotton seed oil typically used in cypionate. And there is discussion that it causes less edema than cypionate.

One urologist tried to talk me out of it because "it is hard to find" but that has not been my experience. And it is twice as expensive as cypionate either through my insurance or out of pocket. But it is still quite inexpensive as medications go.

But why do you prefer enanthate?
 

slicktop

Active Member
But why do you prefer enanthate?
For some reason, cypionate makes my calves cramp when I run. I have no idea why, I'm well aware that there's no scientific or medical reason, but I can keep myself at the same total and free t level on enanthate as I once did on cypionate and have no issues. When I switched from cypionate to enanthate, the calf cramps went away after about 2 or 2 1/2 weeks. I noticed less water retention as well, but most guys don't seem to experience the same issues I did, so who knows?
 

Systemlord

Member
I made the mistake of trusting so-called experts before I discovered that the real expertise lies in forums such as this.

A lot of us have made the same mistakes, in reading your story sounds similar to my experience.

I'm one of those few men who does well on 80mg weekly, but break it up every other day. I have tried enanthate and for some reason I feel way better on cypionate.
 

Vtail

Active Member
A lot of us have made the same mistakes, in reading your story sounds similar to my experience.

I'm one of those few men who does well on 80mg weekly, but break it up every other day. I have tried enanthate and for some reason I feel way better on cypionate.

I am down to 84mg/week (12mg/day). I like the idea of finding the smallest effective dose when it comes to any drug. 84mg keeps my total and Free T within a good range, and I feel no different then when I was on 120mg/week.
 

madman

Super Moderator
No worries...! Finally so far so good. I seem to not need much of a dose to feel better. I'm on 120mg IM of Testosterone Enanthate (split twice). No side effects. Blood test results are fine - Total Testosterone ~1200ng/dl. Free Testosterone ~ 20ng/dl.

As to the lack of T Enth or T Cyp not being brought up earlier, after blaming myself for not doing enough due diligence I do blame the providers. None explicitly mentioned it as an option until all the other routes had been failures!

Total Testosterone ~1200ng/dl. Free Testosterone ~ 20ng/dl.

Get back to me on that one when you have had your FT tested using the most accurate assays (ED or UF).

Total Testosterone ~1200ng/dl

Hope this is not your trough levels on twice-weekly injections (60 mg every 3.5 days) as your peak TT/FT levels would be much higher!
 

madman

Super Moderator
I am down to 84mg/week (12mg/day). I like the idea of finding the smallest effective dose when it comes to any drug. 84mg keeps my total and Free T within a good range, and I feel no different then when I was on 120mg/week.

$$$
 

madman

Super Moderator
Its weird how I ended up on enanthate.... I didn't include this in my story but once educated I found myself explaining to my endocrinologist that "Xyosted" was just Testosterone Enanthate 50mg or 75mg or 100mg with a 1/2 inch 27g needle to be given once a week subQ. The only difference was the fancy and expensive selfinjector package.... So she said "if you like enanthate then that's fine." So I am on it.

I do like the fact that the pharma product comes in sesame seed oil. I happen to love sesame seeds. And that oil is less viscous than the cotton seed oil typically used in cypionate. And there is discussion that it causes less edema than cypionate.

One urologist tried to talk me out of it because "it is hard to find" but that has not been my experience. And it is twice as expensive as cypionate either through my insurance or out of pocket. But it is still quite inexpensive as medications go.

But why do you prefer enanthate?

Warm the oil.....problem solved.

Even then the majority of esterified testosterone/AAS whether packaged in ampule/vial will contain excipients such as benzyl alcohol and benzyl benzoate which act as preservatives, solvents, and/or viscosity decreasing agents.

*In oil-based vehicles for depot steroids, it lowers viscosity to improve ease of administration and prevents crystallization of steroids during storage.

Regarding generic or compounded injectable T there is no secret recipe as they are all manufactured with:

- an esterified T (prodrug) whether (undecanoate/cypionate/enanthate/propionate/ or mixed esters)

- a carrier oil (vehiculum) such as (sesame, cottonseed, castor, peanut, grapeseed)

- an excipient such as:

BENZYL ALCOHOL • Solubility enhancer • Oil viscosity reducer • Local anesthetic
• Preservative

BENZYL BENZOATE • Solubility enhancer • Solvent

ETHANOL • Solvent

CHLOROBUTANOL • Preservative


Nothing more.....nothing less!

Excipients such as benzyl alcohol and benzyl benzoate are used in Depo-Testosterone (cypionate).








Whether one experiences water retention (bloat/puffiness) let alone to what degree has nothing to do with the ester and comes down to TT/FT blood levels achieved.

FT aromatizes!

Esterified T does not convert to E2 until the ester has been cleaved......which happens only when it enters the bloodstream and as stated below....."Subsequently, the prodrug permeates through the wall of blood cells and is hydrolyzed"



post #8
Systemlord said:
SQ for me was a negative experience, the entire injection felt as though the Test converted straight to estrogen and days later it had felt like I missed a couple of injections.

my reply:

Hope you understand that when injected sub-q the esterified T does not convert to E2 until the ester has been cleaved......which happens only when it enters the bloodstream and as stated below....."Subsequently, the prodrug permeates through the wall of blood cells and is hydrolyzed"


"PRODRUG HYDROLYSIS WILL ONLY OCCUR IN BLOOD"



CONCLUSIONS


It is interesting to realize that drug absorption from an oil depot cannot entirely be described by a simple two-phase mass transfer model where concentration gradients, diffusion, and partition coefficients would enable the calculation of the expected absorption. It is demonstrated in this dissertation that there is a role of the excipient BOH in yielding an initially high absorption. The oil depot forms a continuous phase after injection but will be dispersed and encapsulated at the injection site after some days. This in turn largely influences the way the prodrug becomes available; after release from the oil depot, it is present in the interstitial fluid which is drained through the lymph into the systemic circulation. Subsequently, the prodrug permeates through the wall of blood cells and is hydrolyzed. Both the lymph transport and the cell wall permeation take time which is expressed in a lag time. This lag time is different for each injection site: a subcutaneously administered prodrug will enter the systemic circulation via a short path and at a low drainage flow. This results in a short lag time and a slow absorption rate constant of the prodrug. Deeper administered prodrugs (i.e. intramuscular injections) are suggested to be absorbed via a longer path, but at a higher flow, which results in a longer lag time but a higher absorption rate constant of the prodrug
Screenshot (3405).png

Figure 7.2: Schematic overview of the new insights into drug absorption from oil depots. After release from the oil depot (yellow circle at the injection site), the prodrug is transferred towards the central compartment via the lymphatic system. Here, it will be hydrolyzed to the active substance (see circle). ka = absorption rate constant; ke = elimination rate constant.
 
Last edited:

Tman

Active Member
For some reason, cypionate makes my calves cramp when I run. I have no idea why, I'm well aware that there's no scientific or medical reason, but I can keep myself at the same total and free t level on enanthate as I once did on cypionate and have no issues. When I switched from cypionate to enanthate, the calf cramps went away after about 2 or 2 1/2 weeks. I noticed less water retention as well, but most guys don't seem to experience the same issues I did, so who knows?
That's crazy...I get that same calf cramp...I can barely walk sometimes...I just asked to try enanthate...hopefully with good results.
 

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