What is the reason that nandrolone causes depression? (Mechanism of action)

[Gman86]

@Gman86 thanks a lot. Dave Asprey recommends it. i ordered 5mg pills from reliablerx a while ago, that stuff is cheap. i think the key is to start very low and slowly increase. maybe 2.5mg EOD is a good start. I've been pretty demotivated with avg concentration in work (engineering/tech), but amphetamines which work are just nasty.
pramipexole gives me 0 sleep issues I sleep great, but having something raise natural dopamine seems a better idea then something which just mimics its actions.

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U thinking 2.5mg EOD orally or sublingual?

 

[Gman86]

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Thanks for the link. Was really hoping he went into how much he likes to take

 

[t_spacemonkey]

U thinking 2.5mg EOD orally or sublingual?

orally. reading that you can take it once weekly essentially. maybe something 10mg/once weekly orally will do. not a fan of having pills sitting under my tongue forever. unless there is a quick dissolving subl version?

 

[Gman86]

orally. reading that you can take it once weekly essentially. maybe something 10mg/once weekly orally will do. not a fan of having pills sitting under my tongue forever. unless there is a quick dissolving subl version?

The regular version dissolves pretty damn quick actually. At least the ones I get via prescription and filled through CVS

and ya u can definitely take it like once a week. The half life appears to be super long. I’m currently taking 2.5mg E4D sublingually

 

[Pacman]

I got essentially a very depressive mood + no libido + ED on deca.
what is interesting the low dose pramipexole 100% fixed those issues. 0.125mg AM.
prami is very similar to cabergoline which a lot of deca users take. it has a much shorter half life, but I have not taken caber so I can not compare.
you could try 0.125 pramipexole, I am getting mine from reliablerx, but your doc might be willing to rx it. be careful it raised libido for me big time. I personally stopped deca, makes no sense to take another drug to fix the s/x of the first, but it might be worth for you.
the action of pramipexole which is a d3 agonist mostly, would mean that deca might cause high prolactin? but I think it is not as easy as many think. there is a whole down/up stream effects from those changes and they are not very well understood

I've taken cabergoline in the past, and for some reason it made ED so much worse, I immediately went off it. It was a horrible experience. Also, I see lots of sources saying that high prolactin is not the reason for ED on deca, so I'd be very hesitant to try it. Were you on a deca only regimen? Or combined?

Because the consensus appears to be that deca alone greatly reduces all its common side effects (depression, ED for the most part).

Regarding going down the path of using one drug to fix another's side effects, for me it is worthwhile looking into because without deca I feel very handicapped in the gym with anything involved my left shoulder. Working out is a MAJOR player in my mental health, so if deca can help me and there's a way prevent/manage sides, I am 10000% interested in knowing more.

Sounds like u felt best on 140mg/ week of test solo. Unless u felt great sexually, but feel better otherwise on higher dosages. What’s the reasoning for using double this dose, if u felt so good at 140mg? no judgment, jc

GAINZ bro.. lol. But in all seriousness that is the reason. I was on a permanent blast for a while (~600 mg/wk) which is my "sweet spot" for gains and recovery. I must have done that for over a year year. HOWEVER, sex drive and function were total shit. And no amount of AIs fixed it. I hated it.

I have never been naturally athletic, so I want all the help I can get. I am very hesitant to go all out though, because I am starting (in the past year) to care more about long term health and wellbeing, than pure muscle size. However, I still want to be jacked. (or at the very least "in really good shape"!)

It's quite a frustrating conundrum to have. The higher the dose, the better the muscle gains, but the worse sex drive and function gets from a physical level (mentally though it's higher, kind of weird but that's the way I feel, in my head I want it more, but my body doesn't match up).

If prami fixed the issue 100%, is it kind of safe to say that it fixed either a high prolactin or low dopamine issue, brought on by the nandrolone?

I read in the comments of the video I linked that someone took low dose Adderall daily and it helped with mood, so it may be low dopamine? I really do not want this (Adderall) to be my solution, I am hoping that there are safer ways to go about this.

I do have Selegiline laying around here. I never took it. I am a bit concerned with taking MAO inhibitors, reading on how to take it and what to avoid appears scary. don't eat meat or this or that.

I do see a lot of talk about SELEGILINE being a viable option? To help with both mood and sex drive+function?

Why did you order it if you never intended to take it?

I personally feel more comfortable using something like selegiline and/ or low doses of primo or Proviron

Have you actually used Selegiline? At what dose+frequency and how did it affect you? (mood, sex drive+function etc).. And in conjunction with what TRT or cycle protocol? Can you share more regarding why you started using it and all that?

Does it feel like Adderall, or does it feel "clean"? (I prefer not using narcotics at all if I can help it)

i think you are right. the response I got to prami was crazy, i felt like absolute shit, depressed, libido gone, within 2-3h of taking prami it literally like a switched was turned on and I was telling my wife to get ready lol
on the side it is a great mood booster and give you pretty good motivation/energy at the gym too, without the nasty s/x of drugs like amphetamines. i'm sure there is some withdrawal with long term use, but I've seen gym bros on youtube taking 2mg of this which is an insane dose. even the whole pill 0.25mg gave me anxiety.

How long have you been taking Pramipexole? Is it a better option than than Selegiline?


GENERAL QUESTION FOR ANYONE:
If anyone is joining the discussion now, have you tried deca only TRT regimens? How did it go? Any advice or pointers?

 

[excelnelg]

I've found that using an antidepressant such as Prozac on an intermittent or as-needed basis works wonders.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I've taken cabergoline in the past, and for some reason it made ED so much worse, I immediately went off it. It was a horrible experience. Also, I see lots of sources saying that high prolactin is not the reason for ED on deca, so I'd be very hesitant to try it. Were you on a deca only regimen? Or combined?

Because the consensus appears to be that deca alone greatly reduces all its common side effects (depression, ED for the most part).

Regarding going down the path of using one drug to fix another's side effects, for me it is worthwhile looking into because without deca I feel very handicapped in the gym with anything involved my left shoulder. Working out is a MAJOR player in my mental health, so if deca can help me and there's a way prevent/manage sides, I am 10000% interested in knowing more.



GAINZ bro.. lol. But in all seriousness that is the reason. I was on a permanent blast for a while (~600 mg/wk) which is my "sweet spot" for gains and recovery. I must have done that for over a year year. HOWEVER, sex drive and function were total shit. And no amount of AIs fixed it. I hated it.

I have never been naturally athletic, so I want all the help I can get. I am very hesitant to go all out though, because I am starting (in the past year) to care more about long term health and wellbeing, than pure muscle size. However, I still want to be jacked. (or at the very least "in really good shape"!)

It's quite a frustrating conundrum to have. The higher the dose, the better the muscle gains, but the worse sex drive and function gets from a physical level (mentally though it's higher, kind of weird but that's the way I feel, in my head I want it more, but my body doesn't match up).


I read in the comments of the video I linked that someone took low dose Adderall daily and it helped with mood, so it may be low dopamine? I really do not want this (Adderall) to be my solution, I am hoping that there are safer ways to go about this.



I do see a lot of talk about SELEGILINE being a viable option? To help with both mood and sex drive+function?

Why did you order it if you never intended to take it?



Have you actually used Selegiline? At what dose+frequency and how did it affect you? (mood, sex drive+function etc).. And in conjunction with what TRT or cycle protocol? Can you share more regarding why you started using it and all that?

Does it feel like Adderall, or does it feel "clean"? (I prefer not using narcotics at all if I can help it)



How long have you been taking Pramipexole? Is it a better option than than Selegiline?


GENERAL QUESTION FOR ANYONE:
If anyone is joining the discussion now, have you tried deca only TRT regimens? How did it go? Any advice or pointers?

prami works instantly and has a short half life of 8h or so. they all work on dopamine, pramipexole, selegline, caber. I would give prami a try. if it goes wrong, you are clear within 24h.
since selegline is an irreversible mao inhibitor, it takes time to rebuild that enzyme. if you overdo it, or have bad reaction to it, you are in for a 1-2month ride till it 'clears'.
thats the reason i did not take it yet.
I'm not sure if prolactin is the only thing involved in deca issues. I tried deca on the side of my (lowered) TRT regimen. since prami reversed my mental issues+ED 100% i am thinking that it is more then purely prolactin, somehow deca must mess with dopamine as well?

 

[Gman86]

prami works instantly and has a short half life of 8h or so. they all work on dopamine, pramipexole, selegline, caber. I would give prami a try. if it goes wrong, you are clear within 24h.
since selegline is an irreversible mao inhibitor, it takes time to rebuild that enzyme. if you overdo it, or have bad reaction to it, you are in for a 1-2month ride till it 'clears'.
thats the reason i did not take it yet.
I'm not sure if prolactin is the only thing involved in deca issues. I tried deca on the side of my (lowered) TRT regimen. since prami reversed my mental issues+ED 100% i am thinking that it is more then purely prolactin, somehow deca must mess with dopamine as well?

It’s just so interesting how nandrolone solo can make guys feel even better than they do on test, mood wise, energy wise, sexually, etc. So it’s hard to think that nandrolone itself has a negative effect on dopamine

The reports of nandrolone making guys depressed and/ or having sexual issues, come mostly from guys using a test base, and adding nandrolone in. So it seems like the issue is mixing nandrolone and test together, not so much the nandrolone itself.

So if this in fact is the case, I’m just trying to figure out what mechanisms are responsible for this. Could it in fact be that nandrolone can increase a persons aromatization rate, as well as making estrogen receptors more sensitive? and anytime estrogen goes up, prolactin tends to go up as well. And I believe that nandrolone increases prolactin receptor sensitivity as well. I think it’s reasonable to theorize that increased E2/ prolactin levels, as well as those hormone levels having a stronger effect at the receptor level, can cause mood and sexual issues. Especially considering that prolactin and dopamine have an inverse relationship

it would make sense if something like prami resolved these side effects. It would also make sense that certain DHT derivatives can help with these symptoms. Since things like primo can decrease E2 and prolactin levels, and if prolactin levels decrease, I would assume dopamine levels would increase a bit

again, I just have a hard time with nandrolone itself affecting dopamine negatively, when there’s so many anecdotes of guys using nandrolone by itself, or nandrolone with something that increases estrogen slightly, and feeling better mood wise and sexually, compared to when they use testosterone solo, or test as their base

does this make sense? I would love to all work together and brainstorm to try and get to the bottom of this the best that we can. It’s something I’m very interested in figuring out. So would love to hear other guy’s opinions on the matter. This is the best that I could come up with atm. It’s ultimately very perplexing and annoying tho! Lol

 

[AdamHalley]

If prami fixed the issue 100%, is it kind of safe to say that it fixed either a high prolactin or low dopamine issue, brought on by the nandrolone? It’s obv impossible to know for sure, but I’m thinking it’s most likely one of those two things, if prami resolved the issue. What do u think? Makes sense right? Doesnt prami simply lower prolactin? And as far as I know, anytime u lower prolactin, dopamine goes up. And vice versa. Again, as far as I know, prolactin and dopamine have an inverse relationship. But I could be wrong. If u, or anyone else could shed more light on this it would be appreciated

If it's high or even just elevated prolactin, You will see it in your blood work and no for sure. Then you will know if you should treat the prolactin or not. Dopamine is a bit harder to test for and diagnose, so get the prolactin checked

 

[Gman86]

If it's high or even just elevated prolactin, You will see it in your blood work and no for sure. Then you will know if you should treat the prolactin or not. Dopamine is a bit harder to test for and diagnose, so get the prolactin checked

Ya that definitely tells u where prolactin in the serum is. Issue with nandrolone is that it supposedly sensitizes estrogen and prolactin receptors, making the same amount of prolactin in ur system feel more potent than it normally would. That’s what I’ve heard at least.

 

[captain_j]

I've also tried using nandrolone (NPP or Deca at different times) along with my TRT. My test dose has ranged over the years from 110 mg a week up to 200 mg a week. I've tried different amounts of nandrolone with the test, from 70 mg up to 200 mg per week. I also can say that it has a negative effect on my mood as well. I was injecting my test daily for years because it's how I thought I felt best, but a few weeks ago decided to go to every 3.5 days to allow those small gaps in time so that my test can be on the decline and allow my receptors time to take a break. Logic was telling me that keeping my test ruler flat at redline 24/7/365 may not be a good thing, since I have been experiencing fewer benefits from TRT over the last year or so, and I've been on it since Oct 2019. It's been an interesting experiment to see how I feel after 3-3.5 days when my test levels are dropping. It's a feeling I haven't experienced since starting TRT. What I would like to try is making alternating my injections. So Tuesday morning inject 100 mg nandrolone, then 3.5 days later (Friday PM) inject 100 mg testosterone. This could either make me feel absolutely horrible or maybe it would be beneficial. That's one thing I'd like to try, or perhaps doing what others have suggested here, and going with a very low test base of 40 mg test per week, and 120 mg nandrolone on top of that.

I think estrogen levels have a big impact on how you feel with nandrolone. I've read conflicting things about how much nandrolone will aromatize (if at all), but there are theories that somehow it can cause your body to become more sensitive to estrogen in general. This may be due to the progesterone effect of nandrolone. So you say your e2 sensitive is under control at 25 ng/dl, then you introduce nandrolone. Even if your e2 stays around 25, the nandrolone might make it feel like a 60-70 because you're now more sensitive to it. For me personally, I do not react well to elevated estrogen. I've found out many times now that it makes me feel like absolute garbage mentally. I think this may also be why I don't do well on nandrolone combined with normal TRT levels of test. It's another reason why a very low test base might combine well with nandrolone for me and others, and is something I'd like to try.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I've also tried using nandrolone (NPP or Deca at different times) along with my TRT. My test dose has ranged over the years from 110 mg a week up to 200 mg a week. I've tried different amounts of nandrolone with the test, from 70 mg up to 200 mg per week. I also can say that it has a negative effect on my mood as well. I was injecting my test daily for years because it's how I thought I felt best, but a few weeks ago decided to go to every 3.5 days to allow those small gaps in time so that my test can be on the decline and allow my receptors time to take a break. Logic was telling me that keeping my test ruler flat at redline 24/7/365 may not be a good thing, since I have been experiencing fewer benefits from TRT over the last year or so, and I've been on it since Oct 2019. It's been an interesting experiment to see how I feel after 3-3.5 days when my test levels are dropping. It's a feeling I haven't experienced since starting TRT. What I would like to try is making alternating my injections. So Tuesday morning inject 100 mg nandrolone, then 3.5 days later (Friday PM) inject 100 mg testosterone. This could either make me feel absolutely horrible or maybe it would be beneficial. That's one thing I'd like to try, or perhaps doing what others have suggested here, and going with a very low test base of 40 mg test per week, and 120 mg nandrolone on top of that.

I think estrogen levels have a big impact on how you feel with nandrolone. I've read conflicting things about how much nandrolone will aromatize (if at all), but there are theories that somehow it can cause your body to become more sensitive to estrogen in general. This may be due to the progesterone effect of nandrolone. So you say your e2 sensitive is under control at 25 ng/dl, then you introduce nandrolone. Even if your e2 stays around 25, the nandrolone might make it feel like a 60-70 because you're now more sensitive to it. For me personally, I do not react well to elevated estrogen. I've found out many times now that it makes me feel like absolute garbage mentally. I think this may also be why I don't do well on nandrolone combined with normal TRT levels of test. It's another reason why a very low test base might combine well with nandrolone for me and others, and is something I'd like to try.

when my deca experience went south, I noticed that adding an AI did not improve any symptoms at all. i still think that there is some dopaminergic activity which causes the issues, maybe indirectly. that why dopamine agonist fixed the issue.
it took me exactly 3 weeks after the last deca injection for all symptoms to clear. the way i can tell for sure, is then as mentioned earlier, a dopamine agonist called pramipexole fixed those issues essentially instantly. pramipexole with a short half life of 8h wears of within a day or so max. I stopped the drug mid-way (10 days into deca) and all symptoms returned very quickly. first i thought it might be a pure pami withdrawal. i restarted prami, however at week 3, i stopped it again and got no issues whatsoever libido returning to baseline and mood ok.
prami is an amazing libido booster, but can't be used daily IMO for various reasons. but if you need a weekend boost, prami+cialis will do crazy things.
the only part i miss about deca, is that it rather feels calming (but with issues as above) and the gym performance definitely goes up, recovery way better etc. might try NPP some time in the future

 

[Seagal]

It’s just so interesting how nandrolone solo can make guys feel even better than they do on test, mood wise, energy wise, sexually, etc. So it’s hard to think that nandrolone itself has a negative effect on dopamine

The reports of nandrolone making guys depressed and/ or having sexual issues, come mostly from guys using a test base, and adding nandrolone in. So it seems like the issue is mixing nandrolone and test together, not so much the nandrolone itself.

So if this in fact is the case, I’m just trying to figure out what mechanisms are responsible for this. Could it in fact be that nandrolone can increase a persons aromatization rate, as well as making estrogen receptors more sensitive? and anytime estrogen goes up, prolactin tends to go up as well. And I believe that nandrolone increases prolactin receptor sensitivity as well. I think it’s reasonable to theorize that increased E2/ prolactin levels, as well as those hormone levels having a stronger effect at the receptor level, can cause mood and sexual issues. Especially considering that prolactin and dopamine have an inverse relationship

it would make sense if something like prami resolved these side effects. It would also make sense that certain DHT derivatives can help with these symptoms. Since things like primo can decrease E2 and prolactin levels, and if prolactin levels decrease, I would assume dopamine levels would increase a bit

again, I just have a hard time with nandrolone itself affecting dopamine negatively, when there’s so many anecdotes of guys using nandrolone by itself, or nandrolone with something that increases estrogen slightly, and feeling better mood wise and sexually, compared to when they use testosterone solo, or test as their base

does this make sense? I would love to all work together and brainstorm to try and get to the bottom of this the best that we can. It’s something I’m very interested in figuring out. So would love to hear other guy’s opinions on the matter. This is the best that I could come up with atm. It’s ultimately very perplexing and annoying tho! Lol

It seems like low carb vs low fat diet...

Some ppl add dbol to nandrolone for strength increase with no mental issues caused. Might be just the testosterone itself along with nandrolone which messes up neurotransmitters.

 

[Seagal]

Maybe the ratio of DHT N T DHN matters?

 

[Gman86]

Maybe the ratio of DHT N T DHN matters?

Think this could definitely have something to do with it. Could be part of the reason why adding a DHT derivative to a test base with some nandrolone can help with side effects from the combo

 

[Gman86]

It seems like low carb vs low fat diet...

Some ppl add dbol to nandrolone for strength increase with no mental issues caused. Might be just the testosterone itself along with nandrolone which messes up neurotransmitters.

Could be. Would love to know exactly what’s going on one day. It’s something that fascinates/ intrigues me like crazy

dbol converts into a different estrogen than test does. Think dbol converts into 17a-methylestradiol. So that could also have something to do with why dbol doesn’t cause side effects like adding nandrolone to a test base can, in some people

 

[Seagal]

"Nandrolone is considered a relatively safe AAS and has been used extensively by recreational bodybuilders and power athletes. It has rarely been considered to increase the risk of estrogen-related problems, as steroids missing the 19-carbon are not substrates for the classic aromatization reaction. However, in addition to its capacity to stimulate progesterone receptors (a related group of feminizing sex steroid hormones), nandrolone may also increase estrogen levels via a secondary aromatase reaction, promoting the development of gynecomastia and prolonging the delay in restoring natural testosterone production post-cycle. Classic aromatization of testosterone or other androgens may also be accelerated by nandrolone"

Deca only cycles "NO! NO! NO!" Studies included.. ENOUGH WITH DECA ONLY!

By Vision www.PuritySourceLabs.ru There's a cycle concept that has seemed to put back up again and is going around "NANDROLONE DECANOATE" only.. This concept/protocol with Nadrolone "ONLY" is actually NOT old, at all. Once upon a time in the golden era guys used to run deca and Dbol cycles and...

www.anabolicsteroidforums.com

 

[Seagal]

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[Gman86]

"Nandrolone is considered a relatively safe AAS and has been used extensively by recreational bodybuilders and power athletes. It has rarely been considered to increase the risk of estrogen-related problems, as steroids missing the 19-carbon are not substrates for the classic aromatization reaction. However, in addition to its capacity to stimulate progesterone receptors (a related group of feminizing sex steroid hormones), nandrolone may also increase estrogen levels via a secondary aromatase reaction, promoting the development of gynecomastia and prolonging the delay in restoring natural testosterone production post-cycle. Classic aromatization of testosterone or other androgens may also be accelerated by nandrolone"

Deca only cycles "NO! NO! NO!" Studies included.. ENOUGH WITH DECA ONLY!

By Vision www.PuritySourceLabs.ru There's a cycle concept that has seemed to put back up again and is going around "NANDROLONE DECANOATE" only.. This concept/protocol with Nadrolone "ONLY" is actually NOT old, at all. Once upon a time in the golden era guys used to run deca and Dbol cycles and...

www.anabolicsteroidforums.com

Ya nandrolone itself produces more E1 than E2, I’m pretty sure. E1 is a very weak estrogen, compared to E2, from my understanding. Nandrolone converts into E2 at an extremely low rate. On average, it takes about 300mg of nandrolone just to produce around 5-6 pg/ml of estradiol in males.

However, nandrolone does increase the aromatization rate of testosterone into estradiol. It also increases prolactin and estrogen receptor sensitivity. I believe this is due to its progestogenic activity, but I could be wrong about that

 

[Seagal]

I suspect that "nandrolone depression" (T+N cycle) is caused by inhibition of androgenic activity and simultaneous increase of estrogenic activity.

I will increase my AI and try to reduce proviron, hopefully that will work for me . I want to keep DHT as low as possible for my hair and as high as needed for mental wellbeing.
Getting frequent blood test is unfortunately not possible for me due to our health care system. However, I previously tested the effect of different dosages of anastrozol, thus I have some reference points.