Veggies doing more harm than good?

[Gman86]

Gman86,

Have you perused Dr Rhonda Patrik's website and/or videos?

There is so much compelling evidence that veggies are indeed beneficial, including evidence that some compounds which are thusly demonized are actually hormetic in nature in our bodies.

In all of these radical diets, whether no carb, not fat, no veggies, no oxalates, no lectins etc etc. there are zealots who have made leaps of faith. None of these studies, anecdotes, hypothesis etc are conclusive beyond doubt. There are just too many moving parts in terms of food quality, individual base level health, unknowns about in vitro reality, and a host of heterogeneous considerations, including the incredible variation and inaccuracy of self perception in what one thinks they consume, often reflected in errors which completely ngate the validity of studies and anecdote based on self reporting.

If something works for you, I applaud it. However, yet another aspect of what works for N=1, is what works for your specific genetics? Another issue which Rhonda Patrick addresses. By virtue of 23and me and her's and other DNA raw data processing services, it appears that what works for one person may be detrimental to another. I ran these tests and analysis, and for me, apparently my particular polymorphisms indicate a number of things pertinent to this sensational carnivore diet fad: based on DNA and my genetics, these things are not good for me: Low or no carb diet; high or high proportion saturated fat intake. And at this time due to other idiosyncratic circumstances, I have excess iron, and it would be downright dangerous to eat solely carnivore diet higher in iron foods.

YMMV

Ya I know her work very well. I’ve been subscribed to her YouTube channel for a long time, and have watched quite a few videos of hers, some of her specifically talking about the carnivore diet. She’s unbelievable. She’s like dr Paul saladino, in regards to the information he can retain, and his ability to use critical thinking to apply that knowledge. I would say she goes even further into the studies though. She’s absolutely amazing.

Everyone is different, and are most likely going to benefit from diets that their ancestors ate for thousands and thousands of years. But it’s so hard nowadays with everyone being so diverse in their ethnicities. I am not married to one way of thinking, in regards to diet, or anything else in life, and I never will be. I just care about what’s optimal for the majority of people. I’ve been researching how to be as healthy as possible, and extend lifespan since I was around 13. I’m 33 now. And I’ve never seen one way of eating unanimously effect so many people in such a positive way, until I started researching the carnivore diet. I’m still not sure why this is. Whether the benefits come from eliminating foods that are causing issues in most people, or because of all the benefits that come with eating quality animals nose to tail. I would assume it’s obv a combination of the two. But overall, the results people are having is just impossible to deny.

And will some do better while mainly doing carnivore, as well as some select carbs, and adjusting the macro ratios a bit, ya probably. It just like with hormones. We have to figure out what works best for us as individuals. But just talking about the majority of people, I’ve never seen so many people respond so well to one way of eating. So it’s just one of those things where the results are there, and it’s a matter of reverse engineering the diet to figure out why it works so well, for so many.

If u have excess iron, what’s preventing u from donating blood to lower it?

 

[Blackhawk]

If u have excess iron, what’s preventing u from donating blood to lower it?

Hemoglobin 8.9 normal range 14.3 - 18.1
Hematocrit 26.8% normal range 39.2 - 50.2
RBC 2.84 normal range 4.76 - 6.09

BTW thanks for derailing my thread re: Nandrolone and B cells.

I am going to avoid interacting with you from here on. I am sorry as I have enjoyed and benefitted from some of our interactions before. However your lack of realization that cancer mutations happen in adulthood and in effect victim blaming me have been duly noted.

 

[Gman86]

Hemoglobin 8.9 normal range 14.3 - 18.1
Hematocrit 26.8% normal range 39.2 - 50.2
RBC 2.84 normal range 4.76 - 6.09

BTW thanks for derailing my thread re: Nandrolone and B cells.

I am going to avoid interacting with you from here on. I am sorry as I have enjoyed and benefitted from some of our interactions before. However your lack of realization that cancer mutations happen in adulthood and in effect victim blaming me have been duly noted.

Sorry u feel that way. Didn’t mean to offend or victim blame u. But I can see how it came off that way. I completely understand if u don’t want to interact with me going forward.

 

[Tdizzle]

@Gman86 if you are into this you can also try listening to Dr. Shawn Baker - Shawn Baker MD He is a huge Carnivore proponent. They are now doing a carnivore study via Harvard researchers so will be very keen to see the results whenever they come out.

I don’t think Shawn Baker has the “MD” behind his name anymore. I am not sure I would take advice from a Dr who lost his medical license due to incompetence.

 

[forumjoe]

I don’t think Shawn Baker has the “MD” behind his name anymore. I am not sure I would take advice from a Dr who lost his medical license due to incompetence.

Pretty sure he got his license back and proved that the whole fiasco was because of his partners not agreeing with his dietary approach vs doing more surgeries.

 

[Tdizzle]

Pretty sure he got his license back and proved that the whole fiasco was because of his partners not agreeing with his dietary approach vs doing more surgeries.

your right , he did get reinstated. I still wouldn’t take advice from him. His dietary approach looks to have gave him higher fasting glucose levels than people that eat like shit yet he eats no carbs.....
Time will tell. Let’s see where these pro carnivore guys are in 10 years from now, I wonder what there cholesterol and glucose levels will look like then.

 

[forumjoe]

your right , he did get reinstated. I still wouldn’t take advice from him. His dietary approach looks to have gave him higher fasting glucose levels than people that eat like shit yet he eats no carbs.....
Time will tell. Let’s see where these pro carnivore guys are in 10 years from now, I wonder what there cholesterol and glucose levels will look like then.

Fair enough, unfortunately long term studies of this sort are probably not feasible. Personally, I have seen improvements both in my lipids profile and fasting glucose, insulin, ha1c. He claims the increased levels are from high level of exercise... not sure about the validity of such a statement, maybe we have someone who can weigh in on that.

 

[Tdizzle]

Fair enough, unfortunately long term studies of this sort are probably not feasible. Personally, I have seen improvements both in my lipids profile and fasting glucose, insulin, ha1c. He claims the increased levels are from high level of exercise... not sure about the validity of such a statement, maybe we have someone who can weigh in on that.

for me personally, when I got back in to the gym regularly a few years ago, i saw a steady increase in lipids and fasting glucose when I switched to a diet which was mostly meat / animal products l. My focus was on performance and building muscle , not so much what was healthier and would create the best path to longevity.
My doctor told me to cut back on red meat so I started eating a lot more fruits and vegetables and cut back on the amount of meat I was eating. When I did that , those numbers dropped, the lipids in particular dropped dramatically.

Not long after reducing the amount of meat I ate , I tried a vegetarian diet and later went to a vegan diet, my bloodwork panel was the best it ever was in my life. Oddly enough , I saw a pretty good increase in my overall Testosterone level from the previous years which actually went down a touch when I stopped eating that way. I’m not making any claims but this was just what happened in my life.

I am conflicted on how I think ones health would be after a long term vegan diet but from what I personally experienced , it lines up with what the plant based community told me would happen. I don’t see how consuming load of saturated fat is going to increase longevity and life span

 

[Gman86]

Just finished listening to this podcast. Really great info, regardless of what diet you eat. Highly recommend.

 

[Gman86]

And I think one of the reasons for Dr. Baker’s increased fasting glucose level is due to how much protein he is eating. He eats an insane amount of meat per day. I’ve heard that sometimes the process of gluconeogenesis can raise fasting glucose levels.

Bottom line, imo, everyone has to figure out what type of eating and what types of foods work best for them as individuals.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

I agree, in the 90´s I was already a vegetarian and found the blood type diet.
The diet is based on the principle that chemical reactions occur between the foods you eat and your blood type. According to D’Adamo, if you follow a diet designed for your blood group, your body will digest food more efficiently, you’ll lose weight, have more energy, and have a better general health.
As I am a blood type A I am considered a Vegetarian(how convenient as I already was one). Type O early humans, identified as far back as the 40,000 BC Cro-Magnons, ate the high animal protein diet of hunter-gatherers, but as they moved into a more settled agrarian society, type A blood evolved to help them digest cultivated crops, fruits, and vegetables.
So I can see that for those O types the carnivore diet would be best as is a vegetarian diet for A types.

When I read about what to eat and what not for A types, it was pretty amazing that for most of the foods I had naturally/intuitively disliked as a child, like tomato´s and I only ate the most cleanest part of the meat(I was known as the surgeon) simply they did not fit with my blood type.

And yes, there is no scientific evidence blood type based diets work and probably it has al been debunked over the years and bla, bla, bla. It has always worked for me and for many who I advised following it. Like my wife who I turned from being strict vegetarian, to eating meat on a regular basis, She is a blood type O and became physically stronger since doing so.

Life is not personal but individual.

 

[Gman86]

I agree, in the 90´s I was already a vegetarian and found the blood type diet.
The diet is based on the principle that chemical reactions occur between the foods you eat and your blood type. According to D’Adamo, if you follow a diet designed for your blood group, your body will digest food more efficiently, you’ll lose weight, have more energy, and have a better general health. Thanks for that info.
As I am a blood type A I am considered a Vegetarian(how convenient as I already was one). Type O early humans, identified as far back as the 40,000 BC Cro-Magnons, ate the high animal protein diet of hunter-gatherers, but as they moved into a more settled agrarian society, type A blood evolved to help them digest cultivated crops, fruits, and vegetables.
So I can see that for those O types the carnivore diet would be best as is a vegetarian diet for A types.

When I read about what to eat and what not for A types, it was pretty amazing that for most of the foods I had naturally/intuitively disliked as a child, like tomato´s and I only ate the most cleanest part of the meat(I was known as the surgeon) simply they did not fit with my blood type.

And yes, there is no scientific evidence blood type based diets work and probably it has al been debunked over the years and bla, bla, bla. It has always worked for me and for many who I advised following it. Like my wife who I turned from being strict vegetarian, to eating meat on a regular basis, She is a blood type O and became physically stronger since doing so.

Life is not personal but individual.

Interesting. I’ve heard of the blood type diet, but never looked into it. I’m also type O.O- to be exact. So if there is any weight to blood type being linked to diet, looks like I’m on the right track. Thanks for that info.

 

[TestOneTwo]

for me personally, when I got back in to the gym regularly a few years ago, i saw a steady increase in lipids and fasting glucose when I switched to a diet which was mostly meat / animal products l. My focus was on performance and building muscle , not so much what was healthier and would create the best path to longevity.
My doctor told me to cut back on red meat so I started eating a lot more fruits and vegetables and cut back on the amount of meat I was eating. When I did that , those numbers dropped, the lipids in particular dropped dramatically.

Not long after reducing the amount of meat I ate , I tried a vegetarian diet and later went to a vegan diet, my bloodwork panel was the best it ever was in my life. Oddly enough , I saw a pretty good increase in my overall Testosterone level from the previous years which actually went down a touch when I stopped eating that way. I’m not making any claims but this was just what happened in my life.

I am conflicted on how I think ones health would be after a long term vegan diet but from what I personally experienced , it lines up with what the plant based community told me would happen. I don’t see how consuming load of saturated fat is going to increase longevity and life span

Regarding the drop of your fasted blood glucose levels, did you maintain the same sources of carbs? The reason I’m asking is that I’m seeing carbs as the main influencer of fasted blood glucose levels, even complex ones. Mine went up after starting to eat large amounts of oats in lieu of tons of meat & fat. While I was able to drop my lipids my blood glucose went up. With a protein rich diet on the other hand my glucose goes down but my lipids are highish. It‘s difficult to find a good balance.

 

[Tdizzle]

Regarding the drop of your fasted blood glucose levels, did you maintain the same sources of carbs? The reason I’m asking is that I’m seeing carbs as the main influencer of fasted blood glucose levels, even complex ones. Mine went up after starting to eat large amounts of oats in lieu of tons of meat & fat. While I was able to drop my lipids my blood glucose went up. With a protein rich diet on the other hand my glucose goes down but my lipids are highish. It‘s difficult to find a good balance.

no not exactly. When I became a vegetarian, i still continued to eat oatmeal, rice, broccoli, things that i always ate. I added a lot more vegetables and fruit which made my carbohydrate intake go up a lot but my glucose still went down.
It does seem like it’s hard to find a good balance though. I think as long as we are avoiding processed foods and limiting the amount of sugar we intake , we are on the right path.

 

[Vince]

no not exactly. When I became a vegetarian, i still continued to eat oatmeal, rice, broccoli, things that i always ate. I added a lot more vegetables and fruit which made my carbohydrate intake go up a lot but my glucose still went down.
It does seem like it’s hard to find a good balance though. I think as long as we are avoiding processed foods and limiting the amount of sugar we intake , we are on the right path.

Now when you say your glucose went down. What does that mean in your words.

 

[Vince]

I agree, in the 90´s I was already a vegetarian and found the blood type diet.
The diet is based on the principle that chemical reactions occur between the foods you eat and your blood type. According to D’Adamo, if you follow a diet designed for your blood group, your body will digest food more efficiently, you’ll lose weight, have more energy, and have a better general health.
As I am a blood type A I am considered a Vegetarian(how convenient as I already was one). Type O early humans, identified as far back as the 40,000 BC Cro-Magnons, ate the high animal protein diet of hunter-gatherers, but as they moved into a more settled agrarian society, type A blood evolved to help them digest cultivated crops, fruits, and vegetables.
So I can see that for those O types the carnivore diet would be best as is a vegetarian diet for A types.

When I read about what to eat and what not for A types, it was pretty amazing that for most of the foods I had naturally/intuitively disliked as a child, like tomato´s and I only ate the most cleanest part of the meat(I was known as the surgeon) simply they did not fit with my blood type.

And yes, there is no scientific evidence blood type based diets work and probably it has al been debunked over the years and bla, bla, bla. It has always worked for me and for many who I advised following it. Like my wife who I turned from being strict vegetarian, to eating meat on a regular basis, She is a blood type O and became physically stronger since doing so.

Life is not personal but individual.

Wouldn't it be better to test your apoe, instead of blood type. I heard before they used gene testing, some people did use blood type.

 

[Gman86]

Regarding the drop of your fasted blood glucose levels, did you maintain the same sources of carbs? The reason I’m asking is that I’m seeing carbs as the main influencer of fasted blood glucose levels, even complex ones. Mine went up after starting to eat large amounts of oats in lieu of tons of meat & fat. While I was able to drop my lipids my blood glucose went up. With a protein rich diet on the other hand my glucose goes down but my lipids are highish. It‘s difficult to find a good balance.

You make it seem like your lipids increasing is a bad thing. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, but just wondering why you think it’s a bad thing. Just curious. Lipids are a very interesting health marker. I’m just not sold on judging health status on the standard lipid panel that we use. Seems too ambiguous, imo. Check out this video and lmk what you think, if you have time.

 

[Gman86]

no not exactly. When I became a vegetarian, i still continued to eat oatmeal, rice, broccoli, things that i always ate. I added a lot more vegetables and fruit which made my carbohydrate intake go up a lot but my glucose still went down.
It does seem like it’s hard to find a good balance though. I think as long as we are avoiding processed foods and limiting the amount of sugar we intake , we are on the right path.

Absolutely. Regardless of what diet you eat, cutting out processed foods, high fructose corn syrup, gluten, standard dairy, seed oils, transfats, etc. is HUGE. Cutting all that out will make a much bigger difference in your health and how you feel, compared to whether you eat carnivore vs eating vegetarian/ vegan, or just an overall balanced diet of meat, fruits, nuts, legumes, veggies, etc.

 

[Tdizzle]

Now when you say your glucose went down. What does that mean in your words.

That means when I had my annual bloodwork from my doctor , my fasting glucose numbers went down from the previous time my blood was drawn

 

[Vince]

That means when I had my annual bloodwork from my doctor , my fasting glucose numbers went down from the previous time my blood was drawn

So you just had fasting glucose nothing else? No a1c, glycomark, c-peptide?