TRT doesn't cause deficiency of Preg/DHEA/Prog and HCG doesn't fix it

[FunkOdyssey]

That is the bold claim made by this user on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/wdqjrn

What do you guys think? Is this why most men on TRT are doing well without supplementing the upstream hormones?

 

[Phil Goodman]

Well, he may be right and he may be wrong. Either way, his “here’s why” explanation is terrible. Saying there are people all over the board when it comes to the issue does not explain why the claim is true. It should be easy to prove or disprove though. Simply go through lots of lab ranges for guys and take their Pre-TRT labs, look at DHEA values, and then compare them to the values found in their 3, 6, and 12 month follow up. If significant drops are seen then it is reasonable to conclude the TRT probably played a role in it. If not then it’s safe to conclude that TRT doesn’t significantly impact DHEA(just using that as the example since it’s the one most commonly measured). And to follow up, if DHEA decreases then just follow lab values for men who take HCG without supplementing DHEA directly.


In theory it makes sense that he could be right. After all, just because test is high it doesn’t seem logical that our bodies would shut down or substantially drop production of other hormones that are so important. Our bodies are much smarter and more resilient than that imho. But it’s still quite possible that supplementing test does impact those in a meaningful way. And again his reasoning for why that isn’t true isn’t a why at all so he didn’t really prove anything.

 

[tareload]

That is the bold claim made by this user on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/wdqjrn

What do you guys think? Is this why most men on TRT are doing well without supplementing the upstream hormones?

HCG on TRT for Upstream Benefits?

@systemlord That will be news to these guys if they are still alive: https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/100/3/acta_100_3_023.xml My advice would be to stop with the definitive statements. Those combined with your username may give some poor chap on here the impression you...

forums.t-nation.com

HCG on TRT for Upstream Benefits?

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cen.14324?af=R 4 DISCUSSION An optimal endocrine replacement strategy for hypogonadotropic hypogonadal males aims at normalizing all aspects of deficient androgenic action. While testosterone replacement has been used in clinical practice to...

forums.t-nation.com

First post above references a nice thread on EM.

Raising Pregnenolone, Progesterone and DHEA with HCG

1. Anyone who has had low Pregnenolone and/or DHEA how much did adding HCG raise your levels? Both my pregnenolone and DHEA levels are below the minimum range. And I felt like shit on testosterone only. I have recently added HCG to my protocol and want to know if anyone has seen their levels...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

Raising Pregnenolone, Progesterone and DHEA with HCG

1. Anyone who has had low Pregnenolone and/or DHEA how much did adding HCG raise your levels? Both my pregnenolone and DHEA levels are below the minimum range. And I felt like shit on testosterone only. I have recently added HCG to my protocol and want to know if anyone has seen their levels...

www.excelmale.com

Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways.

The role of gonadotropins in testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis pathways -insights from males with congenital hypogonadotropic hypogonadism on hCG/rFSH and on testosterone replacement SUMMARY Objective: To delineate the role of gonadotropins in male androgen biosynthesis pathways...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Anabolic steroids and TRT decrease SHBG, DHEA, pregnenolone and progesterone in men.

Response of serum testosterone and its precursor steroids, SHBG and CBG to anabolic steroid and testosterone self-administration in man. Ruokonen A, et al. J Steroid Biochem. 1985. Abstract The influence of high doses of testosterone and anabolic steroids on testicular endocrine function...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways.

The role of gonadotropins in testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis pathways -insights from males with congenital hypogonadotropic hypogonadism on hCG/rFSH and on testosterone replacement SUMMARY Objective: To delineate the role of gonadotropins in male androgen biosynthesis pathways...

www.excelmale.com

Anabolic steroids and TRT decrease SHBG, DHEA, pregnenolone and progesterone in men.

That could work if you can find it AND afford it. @Nelson Vergel If I had access to HMG, what are the typical doses for it that you know of? I’ve seen 3.75iu 3x per week myself but wasn’t sure. Thank you

www.excelmale.com

 

[Nelson Vergel]

A few men on TRT have bought this panel. I coached two that proved the "theory" right.

Hormone Panel for Men on TRT- Comprehensive

This hormone panel for men on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) contains upstream and downstream hormones to testosterone. TRT has been shown to decrease upstream hormones like pregnenolone and progesterone, and slightly decrease DHEA. Downstream ho

www.discountedlabs.com

 

[Gman86]

The body is smarter and more resilient than we give it credit for a lot of the times. I wouldn’t doubt one bit that it has multiple work arounds for processes when one pathway is shut down

I don’t think I had preg or prog checked before going on HRT, but I can go back and check when I have time. One thing I know for certain, at least with me, is that testosterone absolutely didn’t lower my DHEA-S level even a little bit. It stayed exactly the same as it was prior to TRT. I can also confirm that HCG has the ability to increase prog and DHEA-S levels. My prog levels were pretty low on TRT by itself. They raised significantly when using Pregnyl HCG. Pregnyl, and a few other HCG’s brands raised my DHEA-S level from where it always stayed around prior to TRT, and also where it would stay around while on TRT. Not sure if TRT lowered my preg levels, and not sure if HCG raised them at all. Don’t think I got preg checked enough over the years to know what effect TRT had on my preg level, and what effect HCG had on my preg level

 

[Mastodont]

The body is smarter and more resilient than we give it credit for a lot of the times. I wouldn’t doubt one bit that it has multiple work arounds for processes when one pathway is shut down

I don’t think I had preg or prog checked before going on HRT, but I can go back and check when I have time. One thing I know for certain, at least with me, is that testosterone absolutely didn’t lower my DHEA-S level even a little bit. It stayed exactly the same as it was prior to TRT. I can also confirm that HCG has the ability to increase prog and DHEA-S levels. My prog levels were pretty low on TRT by itself. They raised significantly when using Pregnyl HCG. Pregnyl, and a few other HCG’s brands raised my DHEA-S level from where it always stayed around prior to TRT, and also where it would stay around while on TRT. Not sure if TRT lowered my preg levels, and not sure if HCG raised them at all. Don’t think I got preg checked enough over the years to know what effect TRT had on my preg level, and what effect HCG had on my preg level

I also don´t have good data to say if prior to latest trt my preg and prog were already low, but hcg did not seem to keep them going, and i also never had a drop in DHEA, hcg or no hcg.

 

[Gman86]

I also don´t have good data to say if prior to latest trt my preg and prog were already low, but hcg did not seem to keep them going, and i also never had a drop in DHEA, hcg or no hcg.

Currently I’m in the same boat. Currently using Pregnyl HCG again and this time around it didn’t raise my DHEA-S or progesterone levels even a little. My testicles didn’t increase in volume while on Pregnyl this time either, so for some reason Pregnyl HCG just isn’t having the same effect on me as it did years ago. It feels like injecting water, just like empower’s HCG did. So maybe it’s something with me. Maybe for some reason I don’t really respond to HCG anymore. Was using 1000iu’s of Pregnyl HCG per week when I had prog and DHEA-S tested btw. I had preg tested and I think it came back around 40. Which is up from the few times I’ve tested it in the past on TRT. Think my preg level is usually close to zero IIRC

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Based on Quest pregnenolone LC/MS testing, I can report the bold Redditor seems to be wrong, at least in my case. With a normal range of 22 - 237 ng/dL, I started with 146 ng/dL pre-TRT and a couple months of TRT later I'm down to 29 ng/dL.

One caveat, Quest doesn't offer pregnenolone sulfate, which I think might be the more reliable test if the dynamic is anything like DHEA and DHEA sulfate. I don't know how stable pregnenolone levels are and whether this could represent random fluctuation. It's quite a swing though, from high normal to almost out-of-range low.

My DHEA-S didn't change much before and after. Started with 140 mcg/dL pre-TRT, now 126 mcg/dL.

 

[Jerajera]

My DHEA-S dropped from ~200 to ~80 (forget the units) after getting on TRT, confirmed by at least 10 separate blood tests

 

[Mastodont]

Based on Quest pregnenolone LC/MS testing, I can report the bold Redditor seems to be wrong, at least in my case. With a normal range of 22 - 237 ng/dL, I started with 146 ng/dL pre-TRT and a couple months of TRT later I'm down to 29 ng/dL.

One caveat, Quest doesn't offer pregnenolone sulfate, which I think might be the more reliable test if the dynamic is anything like DHEA and DHEA sulfate. I don't know how stable pregnenolone levels are and whether this could represent random fluctuation. It's quite a swing though, from high normal to almost out-of-range low.

My DHEA-S didn't change much before and after. Started with 140 mcg/dL pre-TRT, now 126 mcg/dL.

My dhea-s remains static, always been pretty much the same when measured, body seems to prefer it over preg and prog, and lately estradiol.

 

[Gman86]

My DHEA-S levels have remained identical before and after TRT. Always at the top of the range or slightly above. Never had preg checked prior to TRT, but after TRT I’ve always tested extremely low. Like close to zero

 

[electrify]

I used to post on PeakT's forum years ago. For some time TRT did lower my cortisol, pregnenolone (but not DHEA), and supplementing preg didn't always help, but then eventually this issue kind of just stopped happening. My body must've gotten used to it. I don't even use HCG and I just do TRT (Test cyp 0.3 mL 2x a week) +15 mg Preg daily (but I cycle Preg and take days off). Been on this protocol for like 5-6 years now (I started when young too in college)