TRT and lifetime usage

[Charliebizz]

If you dont build up a tolernace to your OWN testosterone, you wont build up a tolerance to prescription testosterone. Very simple. Its not going to happen.
testosterone is safe long term unless you start upping the dosage in order to keep gaining more muscle like a bodybuilder or feel the need to constantly have a super high libido which isnt normal by the way.

i don't think that's what the op really meant by that statement. And who's to say your receptors won't down regulate from boosting your t passed your genetic set point. Also it's not just about the testosterone. How do we know what else we are harming being shut down for 20+ years. Some guys do not do well on hcg and the other hormones when we try to backfill.

I think its ok to question this stuff especially at a younger age. But if your feeling awful and your quaility of life sucks and trt makes you feel great again it's a risk worth taking for most. Unfortunately for me trt didn't help much for me other then helping with body pain and slightly better libido. Shit I probably would have stayed on but for some reason trt triggers anxiety for me. Even with perfect labs across the board I'm just riddled with anxiety. And over nothing I just feel wound up and nervous and get panic attacks over nothing. We are all different and you have to understand both sides of the coin. On one of the other boards we have a guy who I swear he would tell you trt makes the grass in his front lawn greener. I'm glad it works great for him but god forbid anyone says anything negative toward trt he loses it.

Even the drs will tell you this is not fool proof and most of you know it takes a level of commitment. I've been low t for 10 years and tried every single thing the field has to offer but for every positive I get a negative. I just can't seem to find the balance some guys don't have those problems.

 

[madman]

Mountain man- i dont think it makes sense getting off now, my natural levels are most likely shut down anyway
S1w- thanks for the kind words, youre right, i should ride it out for a bit to see if it drastically changes things. It will most likely be nagging me as to what direction my life could have gone in....

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[CoastWatcher]

Don't know a lot about it, but I believe there is some way to restart your natural testosterone, possibly with closed or HCG. Maybe someone else knows something about this?

There are, indeed, steps one can take to restart one's axis and return to baseline. If you choose to try it, and many do, Madman has given you some fine links. There are a number of threads here on the Forum offering detailed insight into how to undertake the process.

 

[atlien2488]

Yeah, I appreciate it but I don't think it would apply to me. my doctor said since my LH and estradiol were both very low, clomiphene would most likely have little impact on raising the testosterone. Anastrozole solo lowers estradiol considerably so that wouldnt work either for someone with extremely low e2 already. If i do decide that TRT isn't the right time for me, I might try clomiphene anyway just to see if it can reset anything but I've heard mixed reviews...Hopefully some stem cell research in the future can contribute to higher testosterone levels without sacrificing turning off large components of the endocrine system.

 

[Giovanni73]

Yes... I get the same way. My body just feel like it's not natural. Plus, I worry about me health. This is not anxiety, this is called carring about your health and the long term harm. I keep hearing people say, testoterone has been around for decades, yet, there's only a handful who have been on for even 5 years... Why? Hope they are not all dead.

 

[FeelingLost]

I am pretty new to all the HRT/TRT stuff but I frequent several forums, pict the brains of guys I feel know what's going on via PMs and read daily on the subject for the past 14 months. Something I have noticed is the 20/30 somethings going on TRT seem to have a lot more issues with the bad side effects of injecting T vs the 50+ group. For us it's a true fountain of youth to them its mood swings, greasy hair and back-acne.

I can see why many of the young fellows here and other forums question whether it is all worth it. Especially when they find TRT lvls just bring you back to normal and don't do much for you in the gym. Then lets not even consider cost of drugs blood tests and supplies for the next 30 to 40 years. I don't envy you fellows at all. You have one tough journey ahead of you.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Some words from Dr. Justin Saya on the subject of men benefitting from TRT and long-term adjustment (copied from another thread).

Though we know there are some guys that struggle (even if only temporarily) with TRT (or any treatment for that matter), I can tell you WITHOUT A DOUBT that the forums disproportionately represent those that are actively having treatment issues. This is clearly due to the fact that said guys need help and are the ones most motivated to seek help via the forums.

I cannot even begin to estimate the number of times I've treated guys that are forum members, followed their case (both through direct treatment and through the forums) and then lose sight of them on the forums until a distant consult down the line...a year, two years, three years later, sparks my memory of their “forum case” and we have a nostalgic discussion. If I only had a dime for every time I've said “it's been a really long time since I've seen you on the forums”...and by far the most common response is (in some variation) “well I've been doing great, staying busy, advancing career, growing family, etc, etc”...in other words they're doing better and, indeed, out living their (improved) lives!

 

[atlien2488]

Coastwatcher- Yeah youre right, with any self help forum, of course there's gonna be more people actually needing help instead of out there living there lives to the fullest 100 percent....dialogue is always good though

Giovanni- I feel ya man. I would say stay on it a little longer if you've come this far, your body will most likely adapt over a couple more months but you could also try clomiphene depending on your numbers. You are right though, it would be reassuring to see more people who have open endedly been on TRT 20 or 30 plus years...My guess is ultra processed foods and general nutrition/lifestyle in recent generations like my own

My lab numbers basically spoke for themselves being below 300 free test (290-1100) and free test 5.8 (9-25). I speak to an endocrinologist and urologist this week to see if there are any other options or if I am on a good protocol and hopefully work with them from here on out. I like my TRT clinic doctor so I am kind of torn in who to see regularly as he seems extremely knowledgeable. I'm gonna feel it out and hopefully things improve....

 

[Giovanni73]

Some words from Dr. Justin Saya on the subject of men benefitting from TRT and long-term adjustment (copied from another thread).

Though we know there are some guys that struggle (even if only temporarily) with TRT (or any treatment for that matter), I can tell you WITHOUT A DOUBT that the forums disproportionately represent those that are actively having treatment issues. This is clearly due to the fact that said guys need help and are the ones most motivated to seek help via the forums.

I cannot even begin to estimate the number of times I’ve treated guys that are forum members, followed their case (both through direct treatment and through the forums) and then lose sight of them on the forums until a distant consult down the line...a year, two years, three years later, sparks my memory of their “forum case” and we have a nostalgic discussion. If I only had a dime for every time I’ve said “it’s been a really long time since I’ve seen you on the forums”...and by far the most common response is (in some variation) “well I’ve been doing great, staying busy, advancing career, growing family, etc, etc”...in other words they’re doing better and, indeed, out living their (improved) lives!

That's what they say about men on Propecia... That most of the people that go to forums are the ones how have the problems with the drug, those who do well, simply go on with life.

 

[Giovanni73]

Coastwatcher- Yeah youre right, with any self help forum, of course there's gonna be more people actually needing help instead of out there living there lives to the fullest 100 percent....dialogue is always good though

Giovanni- I feel ya man. I would say stay on it a little longer if you've come this far, your body will most likely adapt over a couple more months but you could also try clomiphene depending on your numbers. You are right though, it would be reassuring to see more people who have open endedly been on TRT 20 or 30 plus years...My guess is ultra processed foods and general nutrition/lifestyle in recent generations like my own

My lab numbers basically spoke for themselves being below 300 free test (290-1100) and free test 5.8 (9-25). I speak to an endocrinologist and urologist this week to see if there are any other options or if I am on a good protocol and hopefully work with them from here on out. I like my TRT clinic doctor so I am kind of torn in who to see regularly as he seems extremely knowledgeable. I'm gonna feel it out and hopefully things improve....

What is your current TRT protocol?

 

[Giovanni73]

Yeah it seems like its for the best though overall though once it starts working.....that is pretty crazy. In my research, ive never heard of it going down after starting trt, much less at 8 weeks later and 3 injections per week....are you overtraining or drinking frequently? What is your estrogen and thyroid levels?

I was on 100 mgs a week (one injection) I tested 8 weeks later and had a Total T at 367 (less than pre-trt) My estrogen (my dr ordered estrogen instead estradiol) it came back 192 in range of 60-190... Dr. said to hold of on AI as it was not that high. He said my SHBG was low (20) and that I more than likely metabolize testosterone fast. He then put me at 50 mgs 3 times a week (Mon/wed/fri) and to retest labs in 8 weeks... So I will see what my numbers are May 2nd. Any thoughts? He also threw in the Thyroid Panel and Cortisol... I will take labs April 23rd and see results May 2nd.

 

[atlien2488]

What is your current TRT protocol?

i take 120 mg of test cyp 1x per week
.25 mg of arimidex 24 hours after each injection (will be monitoring my estradiol closely to gauge whether I need it at all.)
500 mcg hcg 2x per week......will most likely be cycling off and on to avoid risk of desensitization

 

[Giovanni73]

i take 120 mg of test cyp 1x per week
.25 mg of arimidex 24 hours after each injection (will be monitoring my estradiol closely to gauge whether I need it at all.)
500 mcg hcg 2x per week......will most likely be cycling off and on to avoid risk of desensitization

Do you split the 120 into doses? I hear that helps... What is your SHBG? I want to take arimidex, however, I have been told to first wait for labs. Yes, I have read that it's best to do HCG every 3 months for one month. I will put HCG into my protocol but want to try one thing at a time.

 

[atlien2488]

I was on 100 mgs a week (one injection) I tested 8 weeks later and had a Total T at 367 (less than pre-trt) My estrogen (my dr ordered estrogen instead estradiol) it came back 192 in range of 60-190... Dr. said to hold of on AI as it was not that high. He said my SHBG was low (20) and that I more than likely metabolize testosterone fast. He then put me at 50 mgs 3 times a week (Mon/wed/fri) and to retest labs in 8 weeks... So I will see what my numbers are May 2nd. Any thoughts? He also threw in the Thyroid Panel and Cortisol... I will take labs April 23rd and see results May 2nd.

so you're on 150 mgs a week total? i wouldnt go much higher than that....youre estradiol is definitely on the high side I would monitor that closely along with its ratio to testosterone....if he refuses to try to lower it I would seek advice from another specialist. If worse comes to worst, you might have to get an AI yourself and keep track of your levels. In the meantime, take some zinc, vitamin E, D, chrysin, omega 3s, grape seed extract, etc to manage your estrogen naturally....your SHBG isn't clinically low either... I would take his advice but would not wait until may 2nd and get blood tests once or twice before then. talk to a urologist or endo if you haven't already and look into your thyroid functioning as well.

 

[blackebob]

My shbg was at 24. I switched to everyday injections with a 27g needle. HCG made me swell up, so I quit taking it two weeks ago. I will try it again when I get back to where I like my body.

 

[Giovanni73]

so you're on 150 mgs a week total? i wouldnt go much higher than that....youre estradiol is definitely on the high side I would monitor that closely along with its ratio to testosterone....if he refuses to try to lower it I would seek advice from another specialist. If worse comes to worst, you might have to get an AI yourself and keep track of your levels. In the meantime, take some zinc, vitamin E, D, chrysin, omega 3s, grape seed extract, etc to manage your estrogen naturally....your SHBG isn't clinically low either... I would take his advice but would not wait until may 2nd and get blood tests once or twice before then. talk to a urologist or endo if you haven't already and look into your thyroid functioning as well.

Yes, I will go to Discount labs and order and Free and Total test with estradiol on my own. Someone told me that since it was an estrogen test and not estradiol that it is meaningless. 150mg is high? I see that most TRT clinics actually start patients on 200 mgs a week with HCG... I have Arimidex on me, from my doctor, but was thinking it would be best to wait for labs???

 

[Giovanni73]

My shbg was at 24. I switched to everyday injections with a 27g needle. HCG made me swell up, so I quit taking it two weeks ago. I will try it again when I get back to where I like my body.

I'm like you, I actually like more frequent injections opposed to once a weak. I seem to metabolize Test very fast, so one shot a week does not work for me. Where does that put your labs?

 

[atlien2488]

Do you split the 120 into doses? I hear that helps... What is your SHBG? I want to take arimidex, however, I have been told to first wait for labs. Yes, I have read that it's best to do HCG every 3 months for one month. I will put HCG into my protocol but want to try one thing at a time.

My SHBG last time I checked was at 32. A low SHBG means that more of your test is bioavailable and a high reading is that there is less free testosterone available so a low SHBG toward the end of the spectrum is actually better in this regard in that you have more bioavailable t than your average joe. However, you don't want to get much lower than you are already at because it can mess with your insulin sensitivity, lipid profile and eventually be terrible for cardio functioning later in life.
Im not sure if anyone can contribute to the fact your test score went down through exogenous use. I'm sticking to once per week right now and we'll see how my tests come out this week.

 

[Giovanni73]

My SHBG last time I checked was at 32. A low SHBG means that more of your test is bioavailable and a high reading is that there is less free testosterone available so a low SHBG toward the end of the spectrum is actually better in this regard in that you have more bioavailable t than your average joe. However, you don't want to get much lower than you are already at because it can mess with your insulin sensitivity, lipid profile and eventually be terrible for cardio functioning later in life.
Im not sure if anyone can contribute to the fact your test score went down through exogenous use. I'm sticking to once per week right now and we'll see how my tests come out this week.

I have been told that because my SHBG is at 20, my body uses the testosterone very fast and that with once a week injection, my body uses it very fast then gets rid of it. there for multiple injections at smaller dose would benefit me better. So went from 100 mgs once a week to now 150 mgs @ 50 3x week. What are your labs?

 

[atlien2488]

I have been told that because my SHBG is at 20, my body uses the testosterone very fast and that with once a week injection, my body uses it very fast then gets rid of it. there for multiple injections at smaller dose would benefit me better. So went from 100 mgs once a week to now 150 mgs @ 50 3x week. What are your labs?

Yeah I've heard multiple shots a week are almost always better because you keep a more even baseline of test in your body. Some people have had perfectly good success once a week since it is a 8 day half life

I had gone off of memory earlier so my numbers were slightly different but I have them pulled up now from labcorp:

Total test: 291 (264-916) Not low by labcorp but low by endocrine society under 300
LH: 2.2 (1.7-8.6) on the low side
Prolactin: 5.1 (4.0-15.2)
Estradiol: 6.4 (7.6- 42.6) low
SHBG: 32 (16.5-55.9)
free test: 5.8 (9-30) very low
TSH: .472 (.450- 4.500)

I had a variety of lipids, CBC, CMP....everything else came back pretty well within range..