Nandrolone Experiences

[Gman86]

I am continuing with 3 clicks twice per day applied to scrotum and just started 30mg EOD of Deca. Ben is who I do all of my consults with

How do you like him? Does he seem to know his stuff when it comes to other compounds, like deca, for instance? I plan on doing my consult with the PA Mike. But am keeping my options open.

 

[yarmish]

How do you like him? Does he seem to know his stuff when it comes to other compounds, like deca, for instance? I plan on doing my consult with the PA Mike. But am keeping my options open.

He has always been very good with me, I asked if there was anything I could take for joint pain. He said that he would write me for some Deca and we talked about. Told me to do my research and order it if I wanted. He knows that I have been very hands on with my protocols

 

[Gman86]

He has always been very good with me, I asked if there was anything I could take for joint pain. He said that he would write me for some Deca and we talked about. Told me to do my research and order it if I wanted. He knows that I have been very hands on with my protocols

Thanks. Sounds like everyone at Defy is really good. I don’t think I’ve heard someone not like the person they were doing their consult with.

 

[duffer]

I started on Nandrolone Decanoate a few weks ago from Defy at 120mg/wk (0.3ml of 200mg/ml IM twice a week). The rest of my current protocol is 90mg T cyp and 500iu HCG twice a week.

I had been in the middle of a 'mini-cut', and since I started on the DECA, my weight has been fluctuating more wildly than normal and the average has shot up a few pounds despite being in what should be a caloric deficit. This seems to be mostly fluid retention.

I have not been monitoring blood pressure, but my sleeping and resting heart rate has gone up noticeably.

Anyone else have these symptoms when starting on deca? Should I be concerned about these symptoms after only a few weeks? Should I ask to reduce dosage?

I've read that it takes many weeks for deca to 'kick in'. Does this tend to be across the board or would one expect to see improvement in lean mass growth before connective tissue improvement or vice versa?

 

[Gman86]

I started on Nandrolone Decanoate a few weks ago from Defy at 120mg/wk (0.3ml of 200mg/ml IM twice a week). The rest of my current protocol is 90mg T cyp and 500iu HCG twice a week.

I had been in the middle of a 'mini-cut', and since I started on the DECA, my weight has been fluctuating more wildly than normal and the average has shot up a few pounds despite being in what should be a caloric deficit. This seems to be mostly fluid retention.

I have not been monitoring blood pressure, but my sleeping and resting heart rate has gone up noticeably.

Anyone else have these symptoms when starting on deca? Should I be concerned about these symptoms after only a few weeks? Should I ask to reduce dosage?

I've read that it takes many weeks for deca to 'kick in'. Does this tend to be across the board or would one expect to see improvement in lean mass growth before connective tissue improvement or vice versa?

Just to clarify, you’re protocol is 120mg of deca per week, 180mg of test per week, and 1000iu’s of HCG per week?

Have you noticed any differences subjectively, good or bad, since starting deca?

 

[duffer]

Just to clarify, you’re protocol is 120mg of deca per week, 180mg of test per week, and 1000iu’s of HCG per week?

Yep, exactly.

Have you noticed any differences subjectively, good or bad, since starting deca?

Just the fluid retention and heart rate issues I mentioned.. I haven't noticed anything else that I'd attribute to the Deca.

My elbow tendons feel great, but they were already feeling much better before I started the deca, so I'm not sure if it's helping that yet..

 

[Paul M]

Just to clarify, you’re protocol is 120mg of deca per week, 180mg of test per week, and 1000iu’s of HCG per week?

I would class this more of a low dose steroid cycle.

 

[Gman86]

I would class this more of a low dose steroid cycle.

300mg of total androgens, plus 1000iu’s of HCG is quite a hefty protocol, but I see nothing wrong with it as long as you can maintain healthy vitals and labs stay relatively healthy. I honestly don’t see anything wrong even if vitals and labs get slightly skewed. These are legal compounds prescribed by your doctor. It’s your body, I don’t see why what another grown man does with his body should be any of our concern.

 

[madman]

I would class this more of a low dose steroid cycle.

Far from it.

If anything regarding testosterone 300-600mg/week would be considered common steroid doses with 300 mg/week the low end and higher doses 500-600 mg/week would yield greater gains in muscle/strength.

On trt most are using anywhere from 100-200 mg/week, and some slightly higher 200+mg/week (not common).

Regarding nandrolone 200-400 mg/week would be considered common steroid doses with 200 mg/week the low end.

Nandrolones main benefit is it is one of the most effective AAS for muscle tissue building as it binds strongly to the AR and is highly anabolic with minimal androgenicity.

To truly reap the muscle building effects a minimum of 200 mg/week would be needed and higher doses 400-600 mg/week would yield greater gains in muscle/strength.

In cases of muscle wasting due to underlying health issues 200 mg/week is a common dose.

When using nandrolone for joint pain/bone health 50-100 mg/week is all that is needed to reap the beneficial effects.

 

[duffer]

300mg of total androgens, plus 1000iu’s of HCG is quite a hefty protocol,

On trt most are using anywhere from 100-200 mg/week,

Interesting.. I had been under the impression that my T dose was on the low side of typical for TRT.

And it sounds like my deca dose is sort of in between what would be normal for joint health or muscle growth, which I suspected -- but if I actually got the full benefit of joint health plus some additional muscle growth, that would be ideal for me. I don't feel I've been getting rewards in the gym commensurate with the effort I've been putting in..

Any thoughts on the fluid retention or heart rate?

 

[DS3]

I would class this more of a low dose steroid cycle.

Honestly a ridiculous statement.

 

[DS3]

Interesting.. I had been under the impression that my T dose was on the low side of typical for TRT.

And it sounds like my deca dose is sort of in between what would be normal for joint health or muscle growth, which I suspected -- but if I actually got the full benefit of joint health plus some additional muscle growth, that would be ideal for me. I don't feel I've been getting rewards in the gym commensurate with the effort I've been putting in..

Any thoughts on the fluid retention or heart rate?

New Protocol, Elevated RHR/Poor Sleep/Eye Floaters. Abort or Stay the Course?

@eyeheartny Also had problems with significantly elevated heart rate when he began his nandrolone therapy. Last I heard from him he felt symptom relief after discontinuing nandrolone. See the posted thread.

 

[Cataceous]

Honestly a ridiculous statement.

In his defense, the largest estimates for endogenous testosterone production are still under 10 mg per day, so call that 70 mg pure T per week. The referenced protocol has over 200 mg of pure androgens, so almost triple the highest known endogenous production.

Is there some evidence I'm unaware of showing that exogenous androgens are used less efficiently? Otherwise I wouldn't quibble with his characterization of this possible excess, even if it is lower than traditional cycles.

And yes, I am suggesting that a lot of supposed "TRT-level" doses are unnaturally high. Sure the trough serum levels may just make it into the reference ranges, but measuring the peaks would tell a different story. However, all this is not to dispute @Gman86's point that if you see benefits at these levels and lab work looks ok then have at it.

 

[DS3]

In his defense, the largest estimates for endogenous testosterone production are still under 10 mg per day, so call that 70 mg pure T per week. The referenced protocol has over 200 mg of pure androgens, so almost triple the highest known endogenous production.

Is there some evidence I'm unaware of showing that exogenous androgens are used less efficiently? Otherwise I wouldn't quibble with his characterization of this possible excess, even if it is lower than traditional cycles.

And yes, I am suggesting that a lot of supposed "TRT-level" doses are unnaturally high. Sure the trough serum levels may just make it into the reference ranges, but measuring the peaks would tell a different story. However, all this is not to dispute @Gman86's point that if you see benefits at these levels and lab work looks ok then have at it.

Is there evidence that the body uses exogenous testosterone with the same efficiency?

How do I take 75 mgs of Propionate EOD and have peak TT of 1200 ng/dL? Does that mean my body endogenously produces around more like 30-40 milligrams per day? Or does that mean that perhaps exogenously administered testosterone is used less efficiently?

Generally accepted heuristic for a cycle of Test starts with a minimum of 300 milligrams per week as @madman noted. Additionally, the generally accepted heuristic for a cycle of nandrolone begins at 200 milligrams per week.

In TRT settings, are patients sometimes prescribed doses that place them at a higher level than they would be at endogenously? Yes. If the patient feels better and health markers are solid, then that is called hormonal optimization. So casting a blanket statement regarding a person’s TRT regimen and stating that it’s a low-dose steroid cycle is irresponsible, to say the least.

 

[Cataceous]

Is there evidence that the body uses exogenous testosterone with the same efficiency?
...

Considering that the testosterone is bioidentical, I'd say the burden of proof is on those saying something different is happening.

I...
How do I take 75 mgs of Propionate EOD and have peak TT of 1200 ng/dL? Does that mean my body endogenously produces around more like 30-40 milligrams per day? Or does that mean that perhaps exogenously administered testosterone is used less efficiently?
...

So you sample at least every hour to ensure you're finding the peak? No? When did you sample? You'd have to be truly extraordinary to have such a low peak testosterone on this dose. It's equivalent to over 300 mg of cypionate per week.

...
Generally accepted heuristic for a cycle of Test starts with a minimum of 300 milligrams per week as @madman noted. Additionally, the generally accepted heuristic for a cycle of nandrolone begins at 200 milligrams per week.
...

Arbitrary definitions. @Paul M's description is still perfectly reasonable, and he did add the "low dose" qualifier. Don't know why you want to jump on him for that...

...
...In TRT settings, are patients sometimes prescribed doses that place them at a higher level than they would be at endogenously? Yes. If the patient feels better and health markers are solid, then that is called hormonal optimization. So casting a blanket statement regarding a person’s TRT regimen and stating that it’s a low-dose steroid cycle is irresponsible, to say the least.

It's hardly irresponsible to call it what it is, and to question the wisdom of dosing at three times the highest known endogenous production. This is self-experimentation, not optimization. With practically every other biological parameter there are U-shaped mortality curves. I don't view the long-term safety data on steroid (ab)use as so solid that I'd want to operate in that realm for years. Maybe the known health markers don't tell the whole story. I'm sure a lot of smokers felt great until the lung cancer diagnosis. Not saying the risk is comparable, but don't pretend it's zero and then attack someone for suggesting otherwise.

 

[DS3]

Considering that the testosterone is bioidentical, I'd say the burden of proof is on those saying something different is happening.


So you sample at least every hour to ensure you're finding the peak? No? When did you sample? You'd have to be truly extraordinary to have such a low peak testosterone on this dose. It's equivalent to over 300 mg of cypionate per week.


Arbitrary definitions. @Paul M's description is still perfectly reasonable, and he did add the "low dose" qualifier. Don't know why you want to jump on him for that...


It's hardly irresponsible to call it what it is, and to question the wisdom of dosing at three times the highest known endogenous production. This is self-experimentation, not optimization. With practically every other biological parameter there are U-shaped mortality curves. I don't view the long-term safety data on steroid (ab)use as so solid that I'd want to operate in that realm for years. Maybe the known health markers don't tell the whole story. I'm sure a lot of smokers felt great until the lung cancer diagnosis. Not saying the risk is comparable, but don't pretend it's zero and then attack someone for suggesting otherwise.

"So you sample at least every hour to ensure you're finding the peak? No? When did you sample? You'd have to be truly extraordinary to have such a low peak testosterone on this dose. It's equivalent to over 300 mg of cypionate per week."

Flawed question. No one does this. I have, however, measured TT at various intervals post-shot including, 2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours, and 10 hours over the course of the last 6 months. The highest measured TT is 1200 ng/dL. If your head is spinning, don't worry, it'll stop.

"Considering that the testosterone is bioidentical, I'd say the burden of proof is on those saying something different is happening."

Consider that burden of proof satisfied.

"Arbitrary definitions. @Paul M's description is still perfectly reasonable, and he did add the "low dose" qualifier. Don't know why you want to jump on him for that..."

By definition, a heuristic would be a generally accepted rule that is not guaranteed to be optimal or perfect. Given the last 5 decades in bodybuilding and performance enhancement, the accepted rule of thumb (heuristic) for getting into a supraphysiological range of anabolism and androgenicity would be 300 mgs for Test (mono) and 200 for Deca (mono) at the lowest end. (Often combined together in these dosages). As I am sure you know, a heuristic, or rule of thumb is hardly arbitrary. However, neither is it perfect.

This rule of thumb will leave gray area. For example, if a male is running 180 mgs of Test and 120 of Deca, is that a low dose cycle or high dose HRT? Only a couple of douchebags like us would sit up at 11:09 p.m. on a Monday and argue this gray area.

To that, I say good day sir.[/QUOTE]

 

[Paul M]

Honestly a ridiculous statement.

As ridiculous as you?

 

[Cataceous]

...
Flawed question. No one does this. I have, however, measured TT at various intervals post-shot including, 2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours, and 10 hours over the course of the last 6 months. The highest measured TT is 1200 ng/dL. If your head is spinning, don't worry, it'll stop.
...

I take it you didn't sample a single injection multiple times? Would you share the data? This is out of genuine interest. Setting aside the problem of an apparently huge metabolic clearance rate, I'd like to see what your results are saying about the pharmacokinetics of propionate.

...
Consider that burden of proof satisfied.
..

By one unusual anecdote? I don't think so. Any ideas on why your numbers are so low compared to what's typical? Any chance of under-dosed propionate?

...Only a couple of douchebags like us would sit up at 11:09 p.m. on a Monday and argue this gray area.
...

Touché.

 

[DS3]

As ridiculous as you?

Definitely.

 

[DS3]

I take it you didn't sample a single injection multiple times? Would you share the data? This is out of genuine interest. Setting aside the problem of an apparently huge metabolic clearance rate, I'd like to see what your results are saying about the pharmacokinetics of propionate.


By one unusual anecdote? I don't think so. Any ideas on why your numbers are so low compared to what's typical? Any chance of under-dosed propionate?


Touché.

"By one unusual anecdote? I don't think so. Any ideas on why your numbers are so low compared to what's typical?"

Honestly, I could not tell you why my numbers are so low. I have also tried 'micro-dosing' Propionate at 50 mgs per day with 250 IU of HCG per day. Here are my results 10 hours post-shot. This 50 mgs per day amounts to 350 mgs per week of Propionate, yet my labs are normal for TRT. TT < 1200 ng/dL.

"Any chance of under-dosed propionate?"

Any dosage of T that I take is prescribed by my doctor, and I acquire 100% of my testosterone from Empower Pharmacy, so not likely.