Libido: hCG vs higher T / E2

[FunkOdyssey]

When people say that hCG improves libido, it seems like a huge confounding factor to me that it also substantially increases your testosterone level and especially your E2, while reducing the T/E2 ratio. Has anyone achieved the same or very similar levels of T and E2 both on and off hCG to isolate hCG as the driver of the libido increase?

If you're a lean guy and you take exogenous T and turn off the testicular production of E2, your T:E2 ratio should increase -- mine has already. You had direct production plus aromatization and now you've only got aromatization.

In other words, would people that benefitted from hCG have done just as well if they manipulated their T and E2 to identical values?

And if you think the answer is no, what do you think is responsible for the benefit then? 17-OH progesterone? LH receptors in the brain?

 

[Fortunate]

When people say that hCG improves libido, it seems like a huge confounding factor to me that it also substantially increases your testosterone level and especially your E2, while reducing the T/E2 ratio. Has anyone achieved the same or very similar levels of T and E2 both on and off hCG to isolate hCG as the driver of the libido increase?

If you're a lean guy and you take exogenous T and turn off the testicular production of E2, your T:E2 ratio should increase -- mine has already. You had direct production plus aromatization and now you've only got aromatization.

In other words, would people that benefitted from hCG have done just as well if they manipulated their T and E2 to identical values?

And if you think the answer is no, what do you think is responsible for the benefit then? 17-OH progesterone? LH receptors in the brain?

These are really good questions, And unfortunately, I have no answers to offer. I do, however, have some experience with hCG and I’m still learning about this interesting compound.

I am waiting for a set of labs done early this week to see what my numbers look like on about three weeks of Xyosted without any hCG. In the past, all my labs were done in the background of a baseline of the daily hCG. I have a strong suspicion that hCG significantly elevated my testosterone production. I also think it significantly increases estrogen, But can’t prove that scientifically.

I am currently in the process of seeing if I can dial in on testosterone without hCG, as I think it may be easier to control one variable at a time.

Based on my personal observations, I have a suspicion that hCG does have some direct effect on the central nervous system, but again, this is purely anecdotal.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

I know that I’m mentally flat on trt. Like, no mental motivation from adderall l, no excitement at all.

Added hcg to fix this bc it sounds the neruo pathways not flowing.

I’m just curious how long it can take for a libido boost to come along from hcg. After being shutdown a year. I’m not talking about testicle size as that can come back in a week or two. I’m meaning actual mental stimulation being brought back.

Most reports say it fixes their libido that same week.

I would like to know if they have seen reports of it taking longer. Like months of neuron pathways flowing again before everything starts to fix.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I know that I’m mentally flat on trt. Like, no mental motivation from adderall l, no excitement at all.

Added hcg to fix this bc it sounds the neruo pathways not flowing.

I’m just curious how long it can take for a libido boost to come along from hcg. After being shutdown a year. I’m not talking about testicle size as that can come back in a week or two. I’m meaning actual mental stimulation being brought back.

Most reports say it fixes their libido that same week.

I would like to know if they have seen reports of it taking longer. Like months of neuron pathways flowing again before everything starts to fix.

I think there's another possibility: hCG may improve libido by introducing some variability to your hormone levels. I also have the mental flatness you're describing on daily cypionate. I've seen many reports of testosterone propionate resolving those complaints while improving libido and will be testing that soon.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

I think there's another possibility: hCG may improve libido by introducing some variability to your hormone levels. I also have the mental flatness you're describing on daily cypionate. I've seen many reports of testosterone propionate resolving those complaints while improving libido and will be testing that soon.

Very well could be & I do believe variation in hormones is needed for some men to get strong libido. I’ve went down that path went adding variations with daily creams and different stuff in general. Never landed with anything positive.

If I could just get some mental flow going, some excitement, something firing in the brain then I would be content.

 

[Anonymon]

I came in with PFS and HCG probably did more for me than test. I’ve had my E2 and T ratio all over and at least for me it does not appear to be that. PFS folks are noted to have lower allopregnenolone levels in the brain and other issues like that, as well as cortisol issues. HCG for me as far as libido and wellbeing go does have an element of what high dose pregnenolone gives me, as if I drop preg my libido goes down. There are also studies showing HCG can increase cortisol secretion, and I do get an element of that from it that seemingly matches what I’ve gotten when playing around with various forms of cortisol. During my issues I also lose the ability to sweat, which things that increase dopamine help, like MOA B inhibitors. HCG has also helped in a similar way.

I’ve tried AI’s before briefly and my libido would initially go up a bit after taking them, so I don’t think it’s having more E2.

Might also be none of that and have more to do with our brains. We really know very little about the on the ground mechanisms of a lot of things.

 

[M.J]

I came in with PFS and HCG probably did more for me than test. I’ve had my E2 and T ratio all over and at least for me it does not appear to be that. PFS folks are noted to have lower allopregnenolone levels in the brain and other issues like that, as well as cortisol issues. HCG for me as far as libido and wellbeing go does have an element of what high dose pregnenolone gives me, as if I drop preg my libido goes down. There are also studies showing HCG can increase cortisol secretion, and I do get an element of that from it that seemingly matches what I’ve gotten when playing around with various forms of cortisol. During my issues I also lose the ability to sweat, which things that increase dopamine help, like MOA B inhibitors. HCG has also helped in a similar way.

I’ve tried AI’s before briefly and my libido would initially go up a bit after taking them, so I don’t think it’s having more E2.

Might also be none of that and have more to do with our brains. We really know very little about the on the ground mechanisms of a lot of things.

before starting testosterone I was experimenting with ginseng. It lowered my estrogen and increased my prolactin and had two days libido boost while e was heading down. As you said libido has more into it maybe.

Another funny thing is I noticed been on testosterone and hcg for three weeks and stopping hcg brings libido back !!!!
While on hcg nothing is happening.

I recently lowered my dose and again experimenting but I am 100% sure stopping hcg increased my libido…I think it’s a matter of how much hormones levels or ratios you have. I guess…

 

[Anonymon]

before starting testosterone I was experimenting with ginseng. It lowered my estrogen and increased my prolactin and had two days libido boost while e was heading down. As you said libido has more into it maybe.

Another funny thing is I noticed been on testosterone and hcg for three weeks and stopping hcg brings libido back !!!!
While on hcg nothing is happening.

I recently lowered my dose and again experimenting but I am 100% sure stopping hcg increased my libido…I think it’s a matter of how much hormones levels or ratios you have. I guess…

HCG is documented to do a lot of things. Most of it’s been in women, so that makes it hard to tease some of it out, but it can increase cortisol, E2, 5AR, pregnenolone, testosterone, all kinds of things, and is frequently hypothesized to stimulate the thyroid gland. With how many things it can affect, and those are just the ones we know about, we’ll probably never know why some guys like me love it and some guys like you hate it.

 

[M.J]

HCG is documented to do a lot of things. Most of it’s been in women, so that makes it hard to tease some of it out, but it can increase cortisol, E2, 5AR, pregnenolone, testosterone, all kinds of things, and is frequently hypothesized to stimulate the thyroid gland. With how many things it can affect, and those are just the ones we know about, we’ll probably never know why some guys like me love it and some guys like you hate it.

In my case maybe it’s related to protocol change libido I think ! But not sure.
As it happened continues use for 3 weeks then stopping it.

 

[Fortunate]

I was on it for years. For the last several months, I’ve been mostly off of it. Probably will go back on it shortly and plan try to document any changes I notice.

 

[Jucaro]

What I get from HCG is putting my testicles to work, and certainly a better sense of well-being, but never better libido. It worsens my libido and even makes me need more tadalafil or sildenafil.
Also, having very stable levels of testosterone makes me feel mentally flat and low on libido. Having some fluctuations throughout the week (such as dosing only once a week) gives me a very good libido and, contrary to what could be expected, prevents me from high E2 levels, I think it's because as the time for the next injection approaches, my testosterone levels drop and there is less aromatization, giving my body a chance to cleanse itself of any E2 excess, whereas with non-fluctuating testosterone levels there is never a break... (may be that is the reason for the natural circadian rhythm)
My best protocol was 75mg TC once a week plus 260IU HCG twice a week. I have now been using higher doses of HCG for fertility and my libido and erectile function are quite affected...

 

[Gman86]

What I get from HCG is putting my testicles to work, and certainly a better sense of well-being, but never better libido. It worsens my libido and even makes me need more tadalafil or sildenafil.
Also, having very stable levels of testosterone makes me feel mentally flat and low on libido. Having some fluctuations throughout the week (such as dosing only once a week) gives me a very good libido and, contrary to what could be expected, prevents me from high E2 levels, I think it's because as the time for the next injection approaches, my testosterone levels drop and there is less aromatization, giving my body a chance to cleanse itself of any E2 excess, whereas with non-fluctuating testosterone levels there is never a break... (may be that is the reason for the natural circadian rhythm)
My best protocol was 75mg TC once a week plus 260IU HCG twice a week. I have now been using higher doses of HCG for fertility and my libido and erectile function are quite affected...

How many iu’s of HCG are u using per week? 1000iu’s/ week has always worked for me to remain fertile

 

[Jucaro]

How many iu’s of HCG are u using per week? 1000iu’s/ week has always worked for me to remain fertile

For about a year and a half now I have been using different dosages of HCG. It is interesting that when I tried HCG monotherapy at 500 iu EOD, my total testosterone was 585 ng/dl and E2 was 37 pg/ml, then I switched to 1000 iu EOD but total testosterone dropped to 465 ng/dl and E2 increased to 48 pg/ml leaving me a feeling of completely hypogonadal... no AI at the time.
After a few other trials, I am now on HCG 500iu EOD + Anastrozole 0.25mg EOD + Testosterone Cypionate 25mg twice a week (I was taking 50mg twice a week, but total T and free T went too much over range).
Also taking tadalafil 5 mg daily.
Everything works fairly well by now but I'm waiting to have an sperm count in a few weeks as fertility is my goal now...

 

[Fortunate]

HCG is documented to do a lot of things. Most of it’s been in women, so that makes it hard to tease some of it out, but it can increase cortisol, E2, 5AR, pregnenolone, testosterone, all kinds of things, and is frequently hypothesized to stimulate the thyroid gland. With how many things it can affect, and those are just the ones we know about, we’ll probably never know why some guys like me love it and some guys like you hate it.

I have had a bit of a love/hate relationship with hCG. I was on it continuously for a long time at 100IU daily. Went off for much of the last six months and recently resumed. Almost right away, I notice an improved mood, sense of well being and maybe even libido. But, simultaneously, I noted an almost daily low grade headache and mild daily anxiety. After a few days, flare of acne.

I would love to know the neuropsychological mechanism of hCG, so I could somehow replicate it without having to use hCG! I am currently just trying to decide if the balancing act is worth it.

 

[Stoak]

I'm in the same boat with this. I have a sneaky suspicion HCG raises prolactin... I have a bloodwork where I had prolactin measured the day after 1000iu HCG shot (I was ending TRT and prepping for a SERM) it was at the top of range... nearly out... I think 25. BUT I was also 6 weeks from my last Deca shot so I cannot be sure. My best protocol days seemed to be the once per week 250iu HCG (compound) or none. I have taken an inventory and I have a sneaky suspicion any issues I have experienced may have had HCG as the culprit. I've dropped it for awhile... we will see what happens.

Also costs me 115$ for every vial of Pregnyl I buy. I'm thinking of using it every few months for a few weeks instead of 2X per week.

It also doesn't seem to do anything in terms of DHEA/Preg for me. My DHEA sits in the mid 200s always and my Preg (only time I have had it tested was 22 which is basically non-existent). That's at 300-500iu of Pregnyl per week. It MIGHT keep my nuts bigger but how do I scientifically measure this?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

It MIGHT keep my nuts bigger but how do I scientifically measure this?

You use an orchidometer. It looks like rosary beads but it's actually a medical tool for measuring the size of your nuts.

Amazon.com

 

[Stoak]

You use an orchidometer. It looks like rosary beads but it's actually a medical tool for measuring the size of your nuts.

View attachment 25384

Amazon.com

This would appear to be highly prone to user error but thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Stoak]

What I get from HCG is putting my testicles to work, and certainly a better sense of well-being, but never better libido. It worsens my libido and even makes me need more tadalafil or sildenafil.
Also, having very stable levels of testosterone makes me feel mentally flat and low on libido. Having some fluctuations throughout the week (such as dosing only once a week) gives me a very good libido and, contrary to what could be expected, prevents me from high E2 levels, I think it's because as the time for the next injection approaches, my testosterone levels drop and there is less aromatization, giving my body a chance to cleanse itself of any E2 excess, whereas with non-fluctuating testosterone levels there is never a break... (may be that is the reason for the natural circadian rhythm)
My best protocol was 75mg TC once a week plus 260IU HCG twice a week. I have now been using higher doses of HCG for fertility and my libido and erectile function are quite affected...

Dr Rand talks about this in some of his videos. His once per week guys seem to just lose it when they break the shots up more frequently. Then when they go back to once per week their libido returns. Not saying it's the same for everyone but you may be once of these guys.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Dr Rand talks about this in some of his videos. His once per week guys seem to just lose it when they break the shots up more frequently. Then when they go back to once per week their libido returns. Not saying it's the same for everyone but you may be once of these guys.

I think this is what you're referring to:

He says about 50% of the time when men change from weekly to more frequent injections they lose their libido. Of course, he also says you don't have to worry about the weekly E2 spike because you can just take more anastrozole. It seems like highpull from t-nation is using large once weekly doses on a ton of men without any AI though.

 

[Cataceous]

...
I would love to know the neuropsychological mechanism of hCG, so I could somehow replicate it without having to use hCG! ...

My suspicion is that the long half-life of hCG leads to problems when it's used as an LH replacement—including the aforementioned issues with estradiol and prolactin. A potential solution, albeit an impractical one for most, is to use gonadorelin with enclomiphene to generate endogenous LH pulses. For me this seems to replicate the benefits of hCG and ameliorate the side effects, while possibly conferring other benefits.